CA's Prop 8, FL's amendment 2 and Arizona's prop 102/ Defining marriage, Surprised this never got mentioned here. Rating Options

[Joss-eh-lime]

^this is what i had said:

and another thing is that a few people I have heard on the radio and on websites have actually compared being gay in America to being black and that is absolutely ridiculous. a person is BORN black never gay.

comparing being female to being gay is NOT rational.
comparing being black to being gay is ridiculous.

gay people sleep with the same sex. big whoop.
what happens when a bunch of people decide "well i love THREE people. so i want to marry them all. the government takes way my rights if i cant marry all three of my lovers!"

[Blaqheartedstar]

I used them as a example, being gay is as NATURAL as being a women, man, hispanic, african american, asian and so on. If rights were taken away because of who they are people would fight for it.

[*paperplane*]

Does my public school teach me about the creation of the world by God's design or evolution? Evolution. Who even has a say about it? No one. In the same way, why should marraige be taught in such a liberal way, when the creation of earth itself is not?

I don't want MY little brother going on a field trip to a gay marraige. I don't want MY little brother being exposed to contraversial things as a young kid. I don't believe in gay marriage because I believe that those relationships are a sin in God's eyes. That is exactly what the Bible says.

Why does everyone INSIST upon going against nature?

The first part doesn't make sense. And why in the hell would anyone go on a field trip to a gay marriage? Why would any wedding be a field trip? Talk about pulling things out of your ass. That is not exactly what the bible says, because you couldn't even be bothered to quote the bible. But I challenge you to do so.

Bible =/= nature. Not even a little.

and another thing is that a few people I have heard on the radio and on websites have actually compared being gay in America to being black and that is absolutely ridiculous. a person is BORN black never gay.

Most studies disagree with you.


Ummm I typed responses to more posts, but I lost them...and this is all I was willing to redo.

I will say, though, that the reason "liberals" take issue with people who base their opinions off a literal interpretation of the bible is that a lot of us have no reason to care what it says. The law does not either, given the separation of church and state. I actually think that marriage as a religious ceremony needs to be completely separated from its legal ramifications. Every couple that wishes to be united should get a civil union, and then those who are religious can get an actual marriage if they so choose. But to prevent devoted partners from getting visitation rights at the hospital (or anything along those lines) because they are not legally related is wrong. Social conservatism may stall progress, but it will ultimately lose. Abstract morals change over time, so it's utterly ridiculous to say that something is wrong now because people thought it was any amount of years ago.
Polygamy actually used to be common place. But also it used to be acceptable to stone women to death for getting married out of wedlock. Profanity may be a lot more prevalent on tv now, but oral sex between two consenting adults used to be banned by sodomy laws. So I guess you can attempt to make the argument that compromising out morality is destroying society, but personally I'd prefer to take that risk and have as much freedom as possible.

[Blaqheartedstar]

The first part doesn't make sense. And why in the hell would anyone go on a field trip to a gay marriage? Why would any wedding be a field trip? Talk about pulling things out of your ass. That is not exactly what the bible says, because you couldn't even be bothered to quote the bible. But I challenge you to do so.

Bible =/= nature. Not even a little.

^ nicely put. Religion shouldn't even be taught in public schools. So a field trip to any marriage ceremony wouldn't even be a thought.

i also agree that Joss-eh-lime is quick to say its against the bible yet fails to quote any of it.

I will say, though, that the reason "liberals" take issue with people who base their opinions off a literal interpretation of the bible is that a lot of us have no reason to care what it says. The law does not either, given the separation of church and state. I actually think that marriage as a religious ceremony needs to be completely separated from its legal ramifications. Every couple that wishes to be united should get a civil union, and then those who are religious can get an actual marriage if they so choose. But to prevent devoted partners from getting visitation rights at the hospital (or anything along those lines) because they are not legally related is wrong. Social conservatism may stall progress, but it will ultimately lose. Abstract morals change over time, so it's utterly ridiculous to say that something is wrong now because people thought it was any amount of years ago.

^ amazing. Exactly what i was thinking. Makes complete sense.

[brooklyneast05]

prob because quoting from the old testament will screw you over really quick when you realize that you don't abide by any of the laws that surround that gay line

[Reidar]

Religion shouldn't even be taught in public schools. So a field trip to any marriage ceremony wouldn't even be a thought.

She was making reference to this.

[*paperplane*]

Parents can excuse their child from all or part of the instruction.

I think that's the only part of that article that actually matters.

[Reidar]

Not really, because the original premise was Joss-eh-lime conjuring it up out of nowhere. It's a given that any field trip will give parents leeway to opt their child out, so it's not as if either you or Blaqheartedstar had to wait for a link to make that a point; rather, you derided the chances of it happening in the first place.

comparing being female to being gay is NOT rational.
comparing being black to being gay is ridiculous.

Even if you want to believe that sexuality isn't genetically encapsulated, few would argue that your biological inclinations are a conscious choice anymore than gender or race.

[*paperplane*]

Because by not providing a link, or ever directly referencing it, we had no reason to think it was an issue. But of course, it's not an issue because her little brother or any other child would not have to go to anything the parents disagree with. Also, she made it sound like they'd be taken for educational purposes, which that didn't really sound like it was. However, if those children learned that all people are entitled to a happy marriage, then I wouldn't consider that problematic either.

[dosomethin888]

It doesnt matter if a parent can "opt out" of having their child attending a field trip, I dont want my child even having the opportunity to go. A field trip to a wedding, let alone a gay wedding, is ridiculous.
Not to mention, some parents arent even notified accurately.

Having the audacity to even suggest a wedding as a field trip takes a lot of balls.. just like having the audacity to ask a group of children to sing a song dedicated to a presidential candidate.

I used them as a example, being gay is as NATURAL as being a women, man, hispanic, african american, asian and so on. If rights were taken away because of who they are people would fight for it.

There is no way you can prove that being gay is natural.. there are as many holes in the "gay gene" theory as there is in the evolution theory.

Because by not providing a link, or ever directly referencing it, we had no reason to think it was an issue.

Its called google.

[*paperplane*]

Google a seemingly baseless offhand comment? Yeah...so if I say I don't want my sisters to be eaten by dinosaurs on a field trip, are you going to google it to see whether that's ever happened before?

I don't think marriages are an appropriate field trip either. At all. But it's stupid to say you don't want an option to be available when you can say no to it. Schools are legally obligated to notify parents about field trips, so if they don't bother to thoroughly read the permission slips, that's no one's problem but their own. It's utterly hypocritical how people whine about children being "brainwashed" in public schools when the same people would happily put their children in private ones where they can be fed Christian ideology without the government oversight.

[dosomethin888]

Google a seemingly baseless offhand comment? Yeah...so if I say I don't want my sisters to be eaten by dinosaurs on a field trip, are you going to google it to see whether that's ever happened before?

I don't think marriages are an appropriate field trip either. At all. But it's stupid to say you don't want an option to be available when you can say no to it. Schools are legally obligated to notify parents about field trips, so if they don't bother to thoroughly read the permission slips, that's no one's problem but their own. It's utterly hypocritical how people whine about children being "brainwashed" in public schools when the same people would happily put their children in private ones where they can be fed Christian ideology without the government oversight.

Yes, yes I would.

No, I was joking about the whole google thing

Ya, except that private schools are expensive and you know that. Some parents who would love to take their child out of the slowly deteriorating public school system just cant afford it. Thats not even a logical argument.

[Blaqheartedstar]

off topic but check this out
http://grove.ufl.edu/~ggsa/pdf_docs/gaymarriage.pdf
12 reasons why gay marriage would ruin society
^ a joke, but makes total sense.
also brings up the argument many try to pull off that children need a mother and a father, and same sex marriages can't provide that.
They can't use that as a excuse when the divorce rate is climbing higher and higher each year.

[TiffanyFactorial]

We don't learn about marriage in public schools and we wouldn't learn about gay marriage either. Massachusetts is different than California. Our state constitutions are different. Look up the constitution yourself.

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 9 EDUCATION


SEC. 8. No public money shall ever be appropriated for the support
of any sectarian or denominational school, or any school not under
the exclusive control of the officers of the public schools; nor
shall any sectarian or denominational doctrine be taught, or
instruction thereon be permitted, directly or indirectly, in any of
the common schools of this State.

i like that people make it seem like they're trying to protect their future generations from "gay marriage" as if it's some sort of disease. look, it's not a choice, they're born gay & whether you like it or not, it's a reality. we don't live in a friggin utopia, wake up. there's a genocide going in darfur, the holocaust happened, there are homeless people, oh & MY GOD there are people who are gay. your kids & your little brother are going to learn about it EVENTUALLY.

Gays marrying each other cannot be compared to incest or 3 people marrying each other.

[Blaqheartedstar]

exactly. People are all like i don't want my child to learn about it. If you prohibit your child from watching tv. They learn about it at school, from their friends, the internet. its everywhere.

[dosomethin888]

exactly. People are all like i don't want my child to learn about it. If you prohibit your child from watching tv. They learn about it at school, from their friends, the internet. its everywhere.

That is why the family as a whole is extremely important. I dont care whether a child is raised by a man and a woman or a man and a man. (I would prefer the first.). But, take away the family and problems occur.

Children need to be raised by a loving, discipling family. Not 16-year-olds fresh out of high school. The parents need to moniter what the child sees and communicate with their child.

Proverbs 22:6
"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."

[*paperplane*]

Yes, yes I would.

No, I was joking about the whole google thing

Ya, except that private schools are expensive and you know that. Some parents who would love to take their child out of the slowly deteriorating public school system just cant afford it. Thats not even a logical argument.

Yeah, but that wasn't really the point. I meant that regardless children are going to run the risk of being exposed to different ideas. And I fail to see how it's worse to suggest that they be shown that there are opposing viewpoints than to be told that there is only one thing they are allowed to believe, as with many people's interpretations of Christianity.

Brainwashing children at all is wrong.

But you seem to be suggesting that only "liberal" brainwashing is wrong, while it's perfectly fine to push Christian ideology.

[Joss-eh-lime]

The first part doesn't make sense. And why in the hell would anyone go on a field trip to a gay marriage? Why would any wedding be a field trip? Talk about pulling things out of your ass. That is not exactly what the bible says, because you couldn't even be bothered to quote the bible. But I challenge you to do so.

Bible =/= nature. Not even a little.
Most studies disagree with you.
Ummm I typed responses to more posts, but I lost them...and this is all I was willing to redo.

its cute how you think the field trip thing was made up.

the article

gay marriage has already infiltrated schools, and its popularity will grow, no matter what happens with this particular vote. however, i would like to try and attempt to stop its growth therefore i am supporting Prop 8

[only-tuesdays]

Private schools are expensive, but they also offer scholarships. And if that isn't an option there is a such thing as homeschooling. Though, I don't agree with homeschooling if it's simply to guard the child from the real world. When they grow up, or realize you've been lying to them their entire lives, they're likely to resent you for it. I do agree that children need to be raised in a healthy environment, but I don't think that it has to be a heterosexual couple.

Polygamy cannot be compared to homosexuality at all. It is a completely different subject, with it's own issues. That is a ridiculous comparison.

[dosomethin888]

Yeah, but that wasn't really the point. I meant that regardless children are going to run the risk of being exposed to different ideas. And I fail to see how it's worse to suggest that they be shown that there are opposing viewpoints than to be told that there is only one thing they are allowed to believe, as with many people's interpretations of Christianity.

No, because school is not the place to be teaching these children "opposing viewpoints." Yes, the children may learn about them through other students. But the public school's only job is to supply education to these students. Thats why I think creationism, along with evolution should be taught. Or take that aspect out of science being taught at school away completely.

But, if parents belive that "there is only one thing" that their children are allowed to believe, and they have the money(.... or a scholarship i guess), then feel free to send your child to a Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Scientology, or Wiccan school. Its how you wish to raise your child. Whatev.

But as for public school, it is just education. No swaying.

But you seem to be suggesting that only "liberal" brainwashing is wrong, while it's perfectly fine to push Christian ideology.

Ya, your right. It just kind of unnerves me when these people have these children singing a song to a man that is in favor of leaving babies on tables to die just in order to keep abortion laws from becoming under attack.

[Blaqheartedstar]

its cute how you think the field trip thing was made up.

the article

gay marriage has already infiltrated schools, and its popularity will grow, no matter what happens with this particular vote. however, i would like to try and attempt to stop its growth therefore i am supporting Prop 8

it was already brought up. HERE

Also do you honestly believe that prop 8 would already stop gay marriages from entering schools if it already has? what are they going to do punish the children who bring it up?

[*paperplane*]

its cute how you think the field trip thing was made up.

the article

gay marriage has already infiltrated schools, and its popularity will grow, no matter what happens with this particular vote. however, i would like to try and attempt to stop its growth therefore i am supporting Prop 8

Been there, covered that. Try reading posts?

Infiltrated schools? Popularity will grow? It's not a f**king disease or a trend, loon.

No, because school is not the place to be teaching these children "opposing viewpoints." Yes, the children may learn about them through other students. But the public school's only job is to supply education to these students. Thats why I think creationism, along with evolution should be taught. Or take that aspect out of science being taught at school away completely.

But, if parents belive that "there is only one thing" that their children are allowed to believe, and they have the money(.... or a scholarship i guess), then feel free to send your child to a Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Scientology, or Wiccan school. Its how you wish to raise your child. Whatev.

But as for public school, it is just education. No swaying.
Ya, your right. It just kind of unnerves me when these people have these children singing a song to a man that is in favor of leaving babies on tables to die just in order to keep abortion laws from becoming under attack.

By suggesting that they teach both evolution and creationism (which there is no scientific basis for), you're supporting the teaching of opposing viewpoints.

By not banning gay marriage, education is not swayed.

As for whatever you're referring to with kids singing for Obama, the issue not that they're singing for a candidate with particular views, it's that they're singing for a candidate at all.

[Joss-eh-lime]

blackheartedstar; i said stops its growth. not erase it completely. and like i said i know that prop 8 won't stop anyone from talking about gay marriage, but i still dont support it!

[dosomethin888]

By suggesting that they teach both evolution and creationism (which there is no scientific basis for), you're supporting the teaching of opposing viewpoints.

By not banning gay marriage, education is not swayed.

As for whatever you're referring to with kids singing for Obama, the issue not that they're singing for a candidate with particular views, it's that they're singing for a candidate at all.

Ya, and you are so sure that evolution is so much more stable? There are so many freakin holes in it. Just cause you are against Christianity and the theory of Creationism, you dont have to cling on to evolution like its pure fact. Its not.

Well, as for me supporting that opposing viewpoints (creationism vs. evolution) in school, I would much rather have that than only teaching one theory. Or, like I said, take that aspect out of school completely.

[*paperplane*]

Not at all, and this is why I avoid debates about evolution/creationism/whatever, because it all sounds like shit to me. But I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to teach something in science class that has no scientific basis.

I don't think it's an aspect you can take out of school, though. Kids are going to wonder how we came to be, and there needs to be at least a tentative answer. If you want creationism included in that answer, send your kids to Sunday school.