Surprised this never got mentioned here. CA's Prop 8, FL's amendment 2 and Arizona's prop 102, and the whole defining gay marriage. With election coming up pretty soon, Prop 8 has been a big issue.

The argument is that Prop 8, amendment 2 and prop 102 will define that marriage between a man and a woman will be the only legal kind of marriage in California for prop 8, Florida for amendment 2, and Arizona with prop 102.

Some people argue that it has nothing to do with gay rights, or about gays in general
yet mention that if it doesn't pass parental rights, and religious freedom gets taken away.

Others mention that it does (take away gay rights), If the law passes Same sex couples will not be able to
1. Marry the person they love.
2. Those who are already married will lose the rights that come with it.


There is also the argument that Marriage is about love regardless of gender (Love is Blind).
yet others strongly believe that marriage is a religious, spiritual union between a man and a women.

To start a discussion here are several questions
1. what do you feel will happen if these laws passes and soon spreads to other states?
2. What do you feel marriage is, and should the idea of same sex marriage be allowed?
3. What do you think will happen to the children whose parents happen to be both male or female, If these laws passes what do you think will happen to the children?

^ great find. The issue has been out for some time. It was recently that i bumped into the problem and the responses for it.

I ranted about this issue, boy was i pissed for those looking for a quick laugh or something like that check out this post
it also covers what sparked this debate.

I say no on CA's Prop 8.
I believe that people can't just take away someone's rights just for some schools.
And you knows whats stupid? They just allowed gay marriage in California a while ago and NOW they are voting on it?

People really need to look up the new laws in the voting forum. They often word it to confuse people in to picking what they really want.

back on topic though.
what upset me was that one guy used the excuse that every child need a mother and a father and if same sex couples are allow to marry then it takes that away.
what about the children up for adoption? many don't get the chance to be adopted.
What about the children who lost a parent to a accident? a divorce?
so using that as an excuse means nothing.

yes on 8.

i believe in heterosexual couples being married.

Voting yes means that you approve of marriage being only between a man and a women. Thats what yes means.

this is exactly what i mean. It confuses people. Watch, people are going to end up putting yes thinking that its going to allow same sex couples to marry when really its not.

edit: read Joss-eh-lime's post wrong.

mar⋅riage   [mar-ij] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.


they should make another word for gay marriages, like gay intertwining... lolol

Doesn't have to be between just a man and women.

ummmm okay, you want heterosexual couples to be married, so? that has nothing to do with prop 8, since you never said you didn't want gay people to get married

and i think it's stupid, especially taking the rights of marriage away from the gays already married. how can you take someone's rights away solely based on their sexual orientation? that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard, taking away rights of people who've done NOTHING to anyone or anything

think about that, and think how it applies to issues such as abortion, which i'm sure if you support prop8 , you support anti abortion laws.

not only that think about human rights laws, this is ridiculous! even if you do believe people choose to be gay, people can choose to have red hair, and what if they took away the rights of people with red hair just because some overpowering religion deemed it unholy? how would you red haired people feel? most people would feel dehumanized, unwanted, and hated.

why are we dehumanizing people in our own country, equal in value to everyone else?

^ good point.
One guys argues that some how if prop 8 fails and same sex couples are allowed to marry then soon three people are going to want to marry each other or people are going to want to have the right to marry an animal.
you got to be kidding me.

In my opinion I believe marriage started out as a religious tradition but as society changed it suddenly became a tradition. I believe in alternative lifestyles but in all honesty I dont see a place for government even in the idea of marriage. There is no reason the government should get involved. Also when I say alternative lifestyles I also mean that homosexuals can come up with their own tradition of a interconnecting ceremony between 2 souls. To me honestly, I dont even consider polygamy to be a marriage no matter what mormoms think

The government should be involved in marriage because marriage gives two people certain rights boyfriend and girlfriend don't have. Although, to me marriage is really nothing but a legal binding of two, or maybe even three, people. It certainly doesn't make two people love each other, which I think is the reason gay marriage is taboo to others is because people are afraid gay people might love each other, but they don't realize they already do. When you don't allow people to get married, you're not stopping the people from loving each other, you're just not giving them the rights they deserve to have. Obviously when you give two people the right to marriage, it's not going to turn into "I want to marry my dog". No. In our society people are the ones to hold all the rights. Not animals, although I disagree, but that's another argument. Two or even three people should have the right to marriage if they wish to, because the point is you're not stopping them from loving each other, you really can't stop anyone from liking anything. You're just depriving them of rights every over human has based on what they like, and that's really stupid. Who cares if the bible says "marriage should be between a man and woman", the bible is not the constitution.

Why are we allowing people to do this? It's very hateful, it's like discriminating against a whole entire race. We're taking their rights away that they should lawfully have under the constitution, and why? Just because they happen to like the same sex. So what? People have been doing that for centuries, but it's in a society like this where different things should be allowed to happen. In history, they have. Like women's rights and black people's rights. But.. why are we taking away normal people's rights? Sounds really unjust when you think about it, doesn't it? No matter what religious background you have.

By the way, gay parents aren't bad. The children of gay people might have a way better life than they could have elsewhere, even with a heterosexual couple. I seriously doubt that living with two gay people will screw up someone's life, or make them gay themselves. Gay people don't intentionally make other people gay, if you like someone, you just like them and can you really help when you like other people? Gay people don't care about you non-gay people, they don't want you, you're not gay. You may think, but they call me hot! Well, people call Britney hot right now, but that doesn't mean they want her, after all who wants an STD bag? Stop thinking that. The children of gays will be just as corrupted as any other children.

Exactly. What happened to church being apart from gov't?

^if you don't see a place for government in marriage then...sorry but i don't think you even understand marriage or what comes along with it anyway. it's not just a little promise between you and someone, it's a legal binding.

marital status determines a lot of technical things that have nothing to do with love or religion or any of that. you know like, home insurance, auto insurance, health insurance, inheritance, social security, medicare, pension, tons of discounts on basically everything from home loans to joint tax returns....like 299329323 benefits


marriage is more about legal things than anything else imo. when i get married it will be because of the benefits, not becuase i think i need someones approval/recognition to love someone. ofcourse, i'm also not religious so i don't give a shit about any of that union between me, my wife, and the sky fairy stuff.

anway, you can't get these things without being recognized by the govt as married. you can love someone all you want without govt recognition. government is going to be involved in marriage regardless, because it makes sense for them to be from a legal perspective. married couples should be treated differently than independents.

but yeah, homosexual couples who are together on the same long term basis should have the same benefits as a heterosexual couple.

I understand the legalities of marriage. But I don't believe anyone has a right to sit there and define marriage as only being between a man and a woman. The belief that marriage is between only one man and one woman stems from religious belief, not law.

I say who the f**k cares what gay people do, so long as their gay behavior doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Let them be f*gs about it.

I actually do know. I also know that gay couples have to pay $5000 for insurance compared to $80 (in general terms) for a married couple. Thats why I recommended alternative lifestyles with benefits of regular marriages cause if anyone opposes that then their stupid.

Does my public school teach me about the creation of the world by God's design or evolution? Evolution. Who even has a say about it? No one. In the same way, why should marraige be taught in such a liberal way, when the creation of earth itself is not?

I don't want MY little brother going on a field trip to a gay marraige. I don't want MY little brother being exposed to contraversial things as a young kid. I don't believe in gay marriage because I believe that those relationships are a sin in God's eyes. That is exactly what the Bible says.

Why does everyone INSIST upon going against nature?

Because unfortunately this is not a country where one person's religion can so completely be shoved down someone else's throat. We have a thing called seperation of church and state. Do people normally go to a wedding as a field trip? I've never heard of such things. The simple answer to your problem is send your children to a private school. But then they're going to come out into society and realize they've been sheltered from an entire world.

Damns the gov. should let people marry who they want to marry shizz. How would you feel if you couldn't marry the person you love? gay people are nice anyways. they don't do anything to us...

EXACTLY! Why deprive the rights of people based on what they like, it's stupid stupid stupid.






Uhh, marriage isn't being taught, and nor do schools go on field trips to heterosexual or homosexual marriages, what are you talking about? Also, that is how you believe the earth is created, not everyone else. I also don't believe your little brother will be exposed to any homosexuality at a young age because, they don't go on field trips to gay marriages, and I doubt 4th grade boys are mauling on each other. Your last statement in the first paragraph made no sense at all, and they definitely don't TEACH marriages in school, and gay marriages aren't being looked at in a liberal way, they're being looked at in a way that's more like "are we really treating people unfairly because they're gay"? I don't think God said you should not like gays or not allow them to get married (because first of all marriage has nothing to do with love), and I also believe he did say he loves everyone equally and that we should be nice to others. Is hating other people, and also coming up with ridiculous reasons to hate others that don't exist, is that really what your God wants? I don't think so. I think you need to read The Bible a few more times to understand it.

Also, where EXACTLY in The Bible does it say "gay marriage is a sin in God's eyes and you should not believe in them" where? I don't think you can answer that straight forward. Also, read the posts, they'll start to make a lot of sense.

Creationism isn't taught alternatively because it has no scientific basis. Gay marriage is not so concise.

I wouldn't want my kid (my very hypothetical kid existing in another dimension) to attend a gay wedding, but I wouldn't want him to be at a straight one, either. Seriously, what kind of a lame field trip is a wedding? Field trips are supposed to be badass, like going to dinosaur museums and nuclear power plants.

You're not going to win this argument. Your ability to debate this issue is immensely flawed due to your personal beliefs. If you have your own reservations about same-sex partnerships, that's fine, and no one is going to shit on you about that. However, when you state your opinion, then shit on everyone else with such a self-righteous attitude, you leave yourself open to the backlash of those who posess the ability to think reasonably.

You say that same-sex partnerships are wrong, and that you don't agree with it due to your religious beliefs, but you provide no support to your opinions. In the end, you look like the ignorant douche. YOU become the prime example of 'what's wrong in America' because of that fact that you'd ignore human rights just to satisfy your religious beliefs.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with you holding an opposing stance, just present an argument that doesn't make you look like a fool. Would I want my child to be fed anything that merely suggests being a homosexual? Of course not. At the same time, I don't want my child using religion as an excuse to be ignorant. The biblical definition of marriage, unfortunately, is as flawed as your supporting argument, because the benefits involved with actually being married are beneficial to both parties involved.

So take a moment, gather your thoughts, do some research, and come back to this with an open mind and an unbiased stance; then make an attempt to tie in your beliefs.

José Limo.

Imo, to Christians, the Bible should not be absolute, rather a guideline. Strict interpretation of anything of that size can only lead to hypocrisy. I bet you don't follow everything the Bible says strictly. Hypocritical bitch.

so what if my beliefs contratict yours? i can still think logically about this.

everytime someone a bit more conservative than you guys posts their ideas you all flock together and peck out their eyes because "Oh no! How dare she be against gay marriage?!"

what you all want to hear is vote no on 8!

^no it's becuase you don't give any real reason why it's wrong other than that your religion doesn't agree. the simple fact someones religion doesn't agree isn't something that convinces very many people in arguments/debates.


i wouldn't say that repeating what a church told you is "thinking logically". i don't think repeating requires any thinking at all.

Using your personal beliefs isn't an argument at all. You can be as conservative as you want, you can use the Bible as the basis of your argument. If you provide some scripture, even better. But you have to understand, that you can't possibly force your personal religion on everyone else. Just because you believe it doesn't mean everyone else should be bound by it. Everyone's interpretation of the Bible tends to be different.

As far as the religious beliefs are concerned here are the quotes usually used against homosexuality.



Now, I was taught that while the Old Testament is an important aspect of the Bible, we are not bound by it's law. This was before Christ died on the cross for our sins. When Christ sacrificed himself, he put us back on level with God. We no longer need to sacrifice an animal to atone for our sins. At the same time, every sin is the same amount of sin. You are no better for lying than someone who committed murder. Everyone is a sinner, and everyone's sin is the same. The worst thing is when Christians forget that. No one here on earth is in the position to judge another person's sin. The only being who is in that position is God himself.

Of course, none of that matters unless you believe it. ;-)

that depends who you ask, dont jump to conclusions

No, we're pecking out your eyes because you have no legitimate reasons to hate other people. Some of your reasons don't even exist. I really don't think you're reading the posts. You can disagree but you really should have a good reason to disagree and not made up reasons.


By the way, that verse could mean that two homosexual couples shouldn't have sex with each other, and just because two people are married doesn't mean they have sex. It's actually more likely for a boyfriend and girlfriend to be sexually active. I do believe "lying with someone of the same sex" refers to having sex with, not marrying.

As anti-theistic as I am, Joss-eh-lime didn't say anything about hate, so that's a straw man. Do you think that Barack Obama hates homosexuals because he doesn't support gay marriage? You can consider it faith-based tunnel vision if you'd like, but not active vitriol.

This is a tricky one for me. Would I vote for Prop 8? Yes. Is it a bit tougher saying why on these forums? Yes.

I am a conservative person and Im getting distraught over how liberal this country is becoming: Gay Marriage, Abortion (Partial Birth Abortion which is murder, no way to deny that), legalizing prostitution, the amount of sex, drugs, nudity and language available to young children, taking away our 2nd ammendment right... It is deteriorating our society morally from within.

Homosexuals are SO loud. I think the percentage of homosexuals in the US is like, what, 8% and somehow with so few of them, we are debating gay marriage? With how loud they are and how liberal they are in their views, once gay marriage is legalized, they are going to be wanting more. Like taking children on a field trip to see a homosexual wedding. Thats wrong. And introducing a book in elementary school about two Princes falling in love. Thats wrong.
But these people doing these things.. obviously dont see this behavior as wrong. Just like brainwashing your kids to sing "I love (enter presidential candidate's name here)!" Brainwashing children at all is wrong. I say teach EVOLUTION and CREATIONISM in school. Ya, creationism has no scientific basis but there is overwhelming evidence that the Bible is accurate on more than one account and evolution has enough freakin holes in it. So.. options, options, options.

I guess the main reason I am against gay marriage is because it opens the doors to more morally void things to be pushed into this society. What happens when you take morals out of a society? It crumbles. Well, at least I think so.

There is no evidence to the favor of Biblical events that puts it on the same plane as the fact of evolution. That's the point of religion being based on faith.

By the way, not all gays are liberal.

Ya, your right about that. Ive actually met some gay christians, which I think ARE christians.

But, some gays are liberal and those some are loud.

lol people shouldn't have rights unless there are a majority of them?

Wait, so conservative is the same as Christian and if you're liberal you're not Christian? Umm...no.

Dude, you just pulled all of that out of your ass. How about if your going to attack me.. reply to something I actually said.


Ya, I didnt say that they shouldnt have rights.

how? you asked why we're even debating about gay marriage, and we are debating about gay marriage because gay people want marriage rights.

no one is.

That makes it sound like gays are animals =(
I hate idiots. This country dissapoints me.

I didn't pull it out of my ass. From reading what you said it sure seemed like that was your train of thought since homosexual liberals are so devoid of morals as you've said.

Whether you like it or not, they are going to know eventually on the problems that this nation faces and its up to them to help fix the problems that we often cause.

as for "everyone" insisting we go against nature, its natural to love someone, just some people happen to LOVE someone of the same sex, they can't help that.

Well, okay. Its not my place to decide whether someone is a Christian or not. That would be hypocritical of me. But a lot of things that liberals stand for are against the Bible, like gay marriage and abortion. Im not speaking for all homosexuals, but some. Most liberals get pissed off when someone stands for something based on the fact that they believe in God and strive to live according to the Bible.



I said with so few homosexuals there are in this country, the fact that we are in such a hustle over gay marriage being legalized only points out that homosexuals are loud. They are freely expressing their right to free speech, I didnt bash them for it. I just explained that they are, in fact, LOUD.

what you call repeating is what i call my personal beliefs. isnt that what a debate is? its your opinion. its what you think. so i dont have statistical data to back up my belief. its still what i think.

& about gays having rights, they still do. civil unions. hello!

and another thing is that a few people I have heard on the radio and on websites have actually compared being gay in America to being black and that is absolutely ridiculous. a person is BORN black never gay.

^Actually there has been some research that suggests people are in fact born gay.

^oh rly? well i'll wait around untill they PROVE it thoroughly, then prove it again.

just like you did for your religion right

Yes, really. As a matter of fact, if you do your research you'll find that America is one of the few countries in the world to go all crazy over GLTB. They've done research in Europe on cadavers that suggests that there is an area of the brain that actually develops differently as a fetus in homosexual people. I'd get the specifics for you, but it's 1AM and I don't feel like digging through my class notes right now. So maybe later.

As a sidenote, this isn't really turning into much of a debate since it's pretty obvious people aren't looking back and reading what is being said, then commenting.

mmk JC, cuz it was really that funny...


of course people want to try and rationalize being gay as being a natural thing, even though 25 years ago being gay was in the text books as deviant behavior. i have a first hand source on that because my mother studied psychiatric medicine.

i dont understand how come gay people want so many "rights" or whatever, when their lifestyle is just that- a lifestyle. a behavior, a personality trait.

yeah just because something is in a text book doesn't make it fact. that's why there are so many editions of them, you know, becuase we advance and their information becomes outdated...i have no clue where you're going with a 25 year old text book.

ditto

If your rights as a human being was taken away because your a female wouldn't you fight for it?
the rights of people who are homosexual are taken away or violated because of who they decide to sleep with.

they can't change the fact that they are gay. Just like the women who fought for their rights, they just so happen to not have a penis and men felt they didn't need to work, or have the rights that they did.

African Americans wanted more rights, women wanted more rights, now gays do. They all obviously felt that because of who they were the rights they deserve weren't given to them.