CA's Prop 8, FL's amendment 2 and Arizona's prop 102/ Defining marriage, Surprised this never got mentioned here. Rating Options

[NoSex]

Why wouldn't it? Ill admit, there is no real argument against gay marriage. But i think it is in the best interest of this debate to incorporate future problems that are likely to happen if gay marriage were to be passed.

you're arguing that if A happens, P must. but you aren't explaining any of the points between A & P. i'm saying that even if A is passed, there are fourteen points between A & P that each require specific detail & attention. generally, i'm arguing that the transition between A & P is too drastic, removed, & involved, to claim point P as a legitimate reason for avoiding point A.

[*BOSS*]

Scratch it, we won't get anywhere. Since we both can't foresee the future, its just assumptions now, whether or not this chain, independent or not, will happen.

[*paperplane*]

Yes, and that's what makes it a slippery slope fallacy. (I know you're already established this, but I'm in a logic and critical thinking class that has been all about the fallacies, so just had to give my bit of input, regardless of redundancy.)

[Uronacid]

I think that marriage is religious practice. I don't give a hoot about gay people getting married, but they shouldn't call it marriage as it is offensive to many religious groups around the world. They can have all their rights, but they should call it something else. If it's about rights then give them their rights.

[sixfive]

atheists shouldnt be married either

[datass]

marriage is religious practice.

what kind of bullshit is that?

atheists shouldnt be married either

[sixfive]

like it or not marriage has become a social arrangement, and to label it as a religious only thing at this point in history, idk mang.

[Uronacid]

atheists shouldnt be married either

It doesn't matter if atheists get married. As long as they're not gay. Marriage is between a man and a woman. I guess it really doesn't make sense though. Seeing as how they're both taking part in something that has religious context behind it.

Seriously, why not just stand by your partner the rest of your life. What is the real purpose of getting married? You can be just as committed with marriage as you can be without it. What significance does marraige hold when 50%+ of all marraige ends in divorce.

Marriage holds a significance when combined with people who believe in a religion because they both believe in the sacred bond that marriage offers (at least they're supposed to).

like it or not marriage has become a social arrangement, and to label it as a religious only thing at this point in history, idk mang.

It's grounded in religious roots. Call it whatever you want. Homosexuals cannot be "married". It makes no sense. Marriage in the religious context is between a man and a woman. Religion cannot be changed. It wouldn't make sense if it were.

[brooklyneast05]

Seriously, why not just stand by your partner the rest of your life. What is the real purpose of getting married? You can be just as committed with marriage as you can be without it. What significance does marraige hold when 50%+ of all marraige ends in divorce.

marriage holds legal benefits, duh. that's the whole problem. if it didn't, then what would be the point of marriage through the state in the first place? religious people can just stand by their partner their whole life too, and atheists and gay people. but they don't want to, because they want their legal bond with that person and the benefits that come along with it.

marriage in a legal sense, which is what the debate is over, is NOT religious. why on earth would a man and a woman have to go through the state to be united in god? that makes no sense either to me. if people wanna think they are united in god or whatever, then they should be going to a church for that. but the reality is i can go get my marriage license, as an atheist, and there's not going to be anything religious about it. i don't care about religious context, because if my goal was to avoid anything that ever historically had any religious context it would be a really tough life for me lol.

Marriage holds a significance when combined with people who believe in a religion because they both believe in the sacred bond that marriage offers (at least they're supposed to).

this just sounds like wishful thinking man. i mean even if it's supposed to be this way, you know it's not. and once again, why would god want you to go through government to get your sacred bond? that alone says something is wrong here in my opinion.

[Uronacid]

marriage holds legal benefits, duh. that's the whole problem. if it didn't, then what would be the point of marriage through the state in the first place? religious people can just stand by their partner their whole life too, and atheists and gay people. but they don't want to, because they want their legal bond with that person and the benefits that come along with it.

marriage in a legal sense, which is what the debate is over, is NOT religious. why on earth would a man and a woman have to go through the state to be united in god? that makes no sense either to me. if people wanna think they are united in god or whatever, then they should be going to a church for that. but the reality is i can go get my marriage license, as an atheist, and there's not going to be anything religious about it. i don't care about religious context, because if my goal was to avoid anything that ever historically had any religious context it would be a really tough life for me lol.

Like I said, give them the legal benefits and not the name. Religious people are the ones who are really fighting against gay marriage in the first place. They just don't want Gays to call it marriage because by their definition IT IS NOT MARRIAGE. It's a mockery to their belief. It's offensive to them.

this just sounds like wishful thinking man. i mean even if it's supposed to be this way, you know it's not. and once again, why would god want you to go through government to get your sacred bond? that alone says something is wrong here in my opinion.

Call it what you like. While I agree that many people in this day and age have taken marriage for granted. There are many Religious people who still believe this way (myself included). I will continue to believe this way, because it's the only reason to get married.

I don't believe God wanted people to go through the gov't to get the sacred bond. In fact, to be truly married I don't believe you have to go through any gov't process at all. You only need to go through the gov't process to receive the legal benefits of marriage. Again, I don't believe Christians and other religions oppose homosexual marriage because they want to infringe upon the rights of another. They oppose it because homosexuals are calling it marriage. Marriage has already been scared enough. Call it something else.

[datass]

how is marriage soley religious? what about in other cultures?

[Uronacid]

how is marriage soley religious? what about in other cultures?

Many traditions stem from religious concepts. For example, the Holiday Season which was XMas, which was Christmas, which was the celebration of the birth of Christ. Was changed as to be politically correct. Why cant' this be changed?

Our culture probably has some of the most tolerant views on homosexuality. In fact, many of the eastern countries kill homosexuals. What point are you trying to make.

[datass]

Our culture

not really part of yours.

im saying just because many traditions stem from religious concepts, thats not the same in other places and cultures. marriage is not a religious act, at least not always.

[Uronacid]

not really part of yours.

im saying just because many traditions stem from religious concepts, thats not the same in other places and cultures. marriage is not a religious act, at least not always.

Not anymore.

[Firiath]

Prop 8 should never have even been thought of.
Giving people rights then suddenly deciding to take them away is worse than not giving them the rights at all.

Marriage, legally, should be put as two people that are legally recognized as 'married' - not married in a Church, or in any other religious way. This is because the people helping Prop 8 pass believe that gay people will 'infiltrate' their religion, and this isn't the case. Gay people generally realize where they're not wanted, and they usually stay away from any situation that could cause conflict.
Just because gay marriage might be taught in school as an accepted way to love, doesn't mean children will automatically turn gay. It will just teach them to be more accepting of people's differences - something that I believe all religions want their followers to follow.
Saying that by allowing gay marriage, you're paving the way for human-animal marriages and polygamy,is stupid. You have to consider the fact that people involved in a gay marriage are consenting - neither the animal or the multiple husbands/wives are usually consenting. Besides, those issues need to be voted on depending on their own merits, and they don't really share the same merits as gay marriage.

&& For all you Christians who think being gay is a sin:
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to hetrosexuals. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love hetrosexuals, it's just that they need more supervision." Lynn Lavner

"War. Rape. Murder. Poverty. Equal Rights for Gays. Guess which one the Southern Baptist Convention is protesting?" The Value of Families

I'm actually annoyed at Obama. He said he promoted equal rights for everyone and yet, PROP 8 STILL PASSED.
Thank you people in Iowa who showed that the United States isn't made up of bigoted idiots.
There are many more things in this world that require more attention than gay rights. Let them have their rights and focus on the worse things in life. You're focusing too much time fighting something that won't affect any other people, yet you're completely ignoring other things that ARE going to affect people.


"Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality." James Baldwin

[Uronacid]

Prop 8 should never have even been thought of. Giving people rights then suddenly deciding to take them away is worse than not giving them the rights at all.

I have to agree with you there, but just as homosexuality was proposed to be voted in. The people in our country have to option to propose to vote it out.

Marriage, legally, should be put as two people that are legally recognized as 'married' - not married in a Church, or in any other religious way. This is because the people helping Prop 8 pass believe that gay people will 'infiltrate' their religion, and this isn't the case. Gay people generally realize where they're not wanted, and they usually stay away from any situation that could cause conflict.

Definitions don't have rights. Marriage (from a religious point of view) is to be between a man and a woman. Keep calling it marriage and it will keep getting voted down. This has nothing to do with infiltration.

Just because gay marriage might be taught in school as an accepted way to love, doesn't mean children will automatically turn gay. It will just teach them to be more accepting of people's differences - something that I believe all religions want their followers to follow.

Marriage isn't taught in school

Saying that by allowing gay marriage, you're paving the way for human-animal marriages and polygamy,is stupid. You have to consider the fact that people involved in a gay marriage are consenting - neither the animal or the multiple husbands/wives are usually consenting. Besides, those issues need to be voted on depending on their own merits, and they don't really share the same merits as gay marriage.

This statement just as stupid as the quote you posted by Lynn Lavner.
I agree, it's a bit extreme. Except for polygamy, that's a cultural thing. To someone somewhere I'm sure it holds merit. The matter of how much merit an individual matter holds is entirely a matter of opinion.

&& For all you Christians who think being gay is a sin:
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to hetrosexuals. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love hetrosexuals, it's just that they need more supervision." Lynn Lavner

If you had ever read the bible it would be pretty clear that the Bible doesn't refer to homosexuality as a life style. It refers to homosexuality as an act. Lynn Lavner was being extremely ignorant when saying this, and you're being ignorant for quoting it. If I were you I wouldn't tell people about the Bible. You obviously know very little about it.

EDIT: You could also say that god admonishes heterosexuals more because he loves them more and expects better from them.

"War. Rape. Murder. Poverty. Equal Rights for Gays. Guess which one the Southern Baptist Convention is protesting?" The Value of Families

How can you protest Rape? How can you protest Murder? How can you protest Poverty? We as a people have no control over some idiot who decides to Rape or Murder. I don't think that protests will have any effect on who gets raped or murdered. Poverty will always exist.

I'm actually annoyed at Obama. He said he promoted equal rights for everyone and yet, PROP 8 STILL PASSED. Thank you people in Iowa who showed that the United States isn't made up of bigoted idiots. There are many more things in this world that require more attention than gay rights. Let them have their rights and focus on the worse things in life. You're focusing too much time fighting something that won't affect any other people, yet you're completely ignoring other things that ARE going to affect people.

PROP 8 passed because democracy ruled. Obama is not a dictator and cannot change the outcome of PROP 8. Homosexuals need to face facts. There are many many many religious people in this country. If they want the same rights as a married couple then they'll have to call their unions something other than marriage.

"Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality." James Baldwin

I don't know why you quoted this. I don't have feelings.

[drinksmokefuck]

PROP 8 passed because democracy ruled. Obama is not a dictator and cannot change the outcome of PROP 8.

Cut through the bullshit and this is the best answer.

[rnicron]

i didn't read any of this (only a few posts that brought up religion as a basis to their belief) because i'm not here to debate, but my only question is is who wrote the bible? MAN. yeah, it's said to be the word of god and in your religious beliefs, you're taught to know and trust that it is the word of god, but WHO is to say that it IS the word of god? who is to say that man, who wrote the bible, didn't add their own bias?

[Uronacid]

i didn't read any of this (only a few posts that brought up religion as a basis to their belief) because i'm not here to debate, but my only question is is who wrote the bible? MAN. yeah, it's said to be the word of god and in your religious beliefs, you're taught to know and trust that it is the word of god, but WHO is to say that it IS the word of god? who is to say that man, who wrote the bible, didn't add their own bias?

The Bible is said to be inspired by God. The words are written through man by God. They really didn't "write" any of it.

[dosomethin888]

Cut through the bullshit and this is the best answer.

Agreed. Basically, whatever your views on gay marriage are, its a hot topic. So, the fact that Prop 8 was formed is not surprising. People voted it in and that should be the end of it. And if anyone can overturn it, even Obama, simply by pissing and moaning because they didnt get their way, means that we arent living in a democracy. You can say all you want about why its okay to be gay and I can say all I want about why its not okay to be gay, but when you get down to it, Prop 8 was voted in and shows the views of the majority of the people of California.

[mipadi]

You can say all you want about why its okay to be gay and I can say all I want about why its not okay to be gay, but when you get down to it, Prop 8 was voted in and shows the views of the majority of the people of California.

Have you ever heard of tyranny of the majority? Essentially, the majority opinion isn't always right, and can infringe of the rights of a minority.

[drinksmokefuck]

^true true, but i personally believe Prop 8 was passed because america, at least california just isn't ready to accept gay marriage, within 5-10 years, it will eventually happen

[dosomethin888]

Have you ever heard of tyranny of the majority? Essentially, the majority opinion isn't always right, and can infringe of the rights of a minority.

Well, what the majority believes is right to some and wrong to others. So, either way, we do live in a democracy and the majority does rule. In view of Prop 8, I think the majority was right. And others think it was wrong. It doesnt change anything. And if you are implying that the majority was wrong, that is only your opinion.

[drinksmokefuck]

Have you ever heard of tyranny of the majority? Essentially, the majority opinion isn't always right, and can infringe of the rights of a minority.

[mifff]

Separation of church and state? Pssssh the U.S. was founded and built on Christian principles. You can try to be objective all you want but a man's religion strongly shapes his beliefs, morals, values and priorities which translates into policies and whatnot. Christians defend marriage as their own because that's where our social practice stemmed from, the holy union between a man and a woman; you can't blame them for trying to honor their values.

I don't see why so many people are surprised civil union passages don't pass in some states.. yes we are heading in a more liberal direction and we have quite a few cosmopolitan cities but what about the rest of the nation??? Even within those big cities, there are still strong Christian populations. I'm not saying that gay marriages are wrong (even though I should as I am a baby Christian.. ) but I'm tired of people painting such ugly irrational pictures of Christian people and their beliefs, often misrepresented by shallow, pretentious internat Christians who THINK they know their bible. Man is flawed so religion is flawed. If you don't understand their religion, how do you expect to really understand their political stance built on these beliefs? Bluuuurgh ramble ramble but I had to get it off my chest....