is this suicide justified?, 85 year old man shoots himself Options

[illumineering]

[font=times] Kids can't stop their parents from baptizing them.
font]

When I read your response, this point really resonated.

I don't find this suicide "wrong" as I believe the nature of self-determination and free will gives each of us the ability to define life.

The fact that I am friends with his grandchildren and knew his son and daughter-in-law has significantly raised my awareness of this issue. I've never been as effected by the act of suicide prior to this.

My conflict is of a personal nature not an external judgement of the actions of another. Since my cancer diagnosis and other major challenges, life has radically changed for me. It feels like I've lost my old set of eyes and am learning to see in a completely different way.

As a result, I wonder if life could have had new meaning and hope if he lived to see the sun rise one more day. Yet, at the age of 85, this suicide might also be the function of a fully lived life.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Well yes, of course you were hurt by this, just as others are hurt by other suicides, but the debate is on whether suicide is justified..for anyone, not just for him.

Well, since the man is a Christian, and it would be a sin to suicide. The real question now  is "Is commiting a Sin Justified"?

..Therein lies my whole point. Read my arguments.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

Perhaps he was only Christian because he was brought up that way, or because it's "good"

I read some of your posts, but not all of them and I'm sorry for that. Anywho, As for what you said here, you can't really assume he was brought up like that because its "good" nor can you assume that he truly believe in Christian beliefs. However, we do know he is a Christian, and by fact, Christian beliefs strickly say suicide is a sin.

Now since this is a debate, I'll say that commiting a sin isn't justified. Why?

jus·ti·fy  Audio pronunciation of "justify" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (jst-f)
v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v. tr.

  1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
  2. To declare free of blame; absolve.
  3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

Since by defintion justify means to be free from a grevious sin, I see no way commiting a sin fits that definition.

[sadolakced acid]

^

so sex, even though it's needed to create new humans, isn't justified?

you're taking that out of context. that definition says you can justify a sin, and it even uses that as a definition.

shot yourself in the foot i'm afraid.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

^

so sex, even though it's needed to create new humans, isn't justified?

shot yourself in the foot i'm afraid.

Yes, if the person happens to be Christian and isn't married.

[sadolakced acid]

^ hang on.

all sex is sin.

bible says.

so what are you doiing there, justifying sin?

[*RiC3xBoy*]

^ hang on.

all sex is sin.

bible says. 

so what are you doiing there, justifying sin?

All sex is sin? My Christian dictionary is quite limited, but I thought sex is only a sin when with someone that you are not married to??

But anywho, even if ALL sex were to be a sin, then yes, it would still not be justified due to his religion.

[sadolakced acid]

^

if all sex is not sin, why are babies babtized in the name of purifying them from the taint of "original sin", aka sex?

sex would apparently not be a sin because because if churches had devout memebers then they would have to have new members only by converting.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

Honestly?? I really have no idea. It was just something I thought.

[yellowgurl]

Well, if he was 85 he possibly wouldnt be around for a long while.. but if he did he could have improved his life and focus on taking care/ or get taken care of by his remaining relatives.. so i guess he just hasnt thought out his options.. but suicide was his choice, his decision so i guess it was too much for him to bear and possibly nobody could have helped him anyhow.

[Olive]

.. but suicide was his choice, his decision so i guess it was too much for him to bear and possibly nobody could have helped him anyhow.

There is ALWAYS help. He either never really had the will the seek it, or just didn't want to hear it. He was not alone, if thats what you implied.

[b]Well, since the man is a Christian, and it would be a sin to suicide. The real question now  is "Is commiting a Sin Justified"?

That is NOT the question.
By the sinful act of suicide, he made himself God, deciding his own destiny. Commandment 6 reads 'thy shall not kill', and by killing himself, he destroyed a life he did NOT create. Now is THIS justified?

if someone chooses to remove some 15 years of their life that will probably be spent watching TV being depressed in a nursing home or someone's house (while, because of your presence thier marriage is falling apart and thier kids are growing rebellious)(which may or may not happen, depends), then surely living relatives can accept that reasoning, right?

He had friends and relatives, as Illumineering said. There is probably also thousands suffering the same traumatic loss in this world. In fact, millions die from starvation and drinking contaminated water, not having ever even heard the term "television". While comparably, his life was luxury yet he threw it away regardless.

I do not think any relative that cared for him, would wish him to die, if they knew of his misery.
Both my grandparents suffered from Alzheimer's disease. It is not treatable. Despite not being able to eat, talk and needing assistance to move for more than 10 years in a hospital bed, their life ended naturally and peacefully. Is there more of an excuse to die from emotional pain when it is curable? That is, if he had allowed himself to see past his calamity or even be grateful for what he already has, then there would have been no need to die.

[illumineering]

There is ALWAYS help. He either never really had the will the seek it, or just didn't want to hear it. He was not alone, if thats what you implied.

It was amazing that absolutely no one at his son's funeral got any hint that he was suicidal. In a room full of teachers, psychologists and others trained to see suicidal tendancies, there wasn't one person that could forsee his actions. His own family and friends couldn't even tell.

His ability to mask his intentions was masterful. Olive, your statement that he truly did not want or seek any help is true.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

That is NOT the question.
By the sinful act of suicide, he made himself God, deciding his own destiny. Commandment 6 reads 'thy shall not kill', and by killing himself, he destroyed a life he did NOT create. Now is THIS justified?

How is it NOT the question??? The topic clearly states that a christian man suicides and we are debating whether it is justified or not, so in other words, is commiting a sin justified

Is it justified, NO, as I stated in my posts before.

[snoox]

i dont relly no. but i for one is against suicide. GOd gave him a life to live. and he is the only one who's to decide when his work was done. but the man took it away.

i can't blame the old guy though. probably lost hope and was really depressed since his only son just died. and he's the only person in his family generation ho's still alive. he was unable to control his emotions. unable to think that maybe there's still something worth living.

[sadolakced acid]

How is it NOT the question??? The topic clearly states that a christian man suicides and we are debating whether it is justified or not, so in other words, is commiting a sin justified

Is it justified, NO, as I stated in my posts before.

yet every christian chuch justifys some sort of sin in one way or another.

just because it's a sin doesn't mean it's not justified, in fact one of the definitions of justify is to remove the burden of a sin. pick a new arguement.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

yet every christian chuch justifys some sort of sin in one way or another.

just because it's a sin doesn't mean it's not justified, in fact one of the definitions of justify is to remove the burden of a sin.  pick a new arguement.

But how does commiting a Sin remove the burden of one??

[illumineering]

yet every christian chuch justifys some sort of sin in one way or another.

just because it's a sin doesn't mean it's not justified, in fact one of the definitions of justify is to remove the burden of a sin.  pick a new arguement.

here's the entire Encarta entry.

5. christianity free somebody from sin: in Christianity, to free somebody from sinfulness through faith in Jesus Christ or by the grace of Jesus Christ ( refers to God )

You forgot the Jesus Christ part. I don't see a checkmate unless I missing a part of your argument.

[yellowgurl]

well unless no one had a clue about his depression then.. he would seem somewhat alone in his mind.. wouldnt he?

[*disco infiltrator*]

Just because he was baptized when he was a baby doesn't mean he believes the Christian morals, gosh. Obviously he doesn't. You can't help being baptized when you're little, you can't stop it from happening, and then, you don't even know if you agree with the Christian ways because you don't know anything else. Obviously he doesn't agree with the Christian ways. OH WELL. That means he's not a true Christian. If he was, he wouldn't have committed suicide.

[latinprep12]

Just because he was baptized when he was a baby doesn't mean he believes the Christian morals, gosh. Obviously he doesn't. You can't help being baptized when you're little, you can't stop it from happening, and then, you don't even know if you agree with the Christian ways because you don't know anything else. Obviously he doesn't agree with the Christian ways. OH WELL. That means he's not a true Christian. If he was, he wouldn't have committed suicide.

I agree...isnt it in the bible you cant take the life of one or yours in your own hand?...well i think he was stressed or real lonely and then ended it...well its a sin..but god forgives as well so im lost on that

[sadolakced acid]

here's the entire Encarta entry.
You forgot the Jesus Christ part.  I don't see a checkmate unless I missing a part of your argument.

RiC3xBoy's arguement was that because his suicide was a sin, it was inherently unjustifiable.

now, in the definition of justify, it includes freeing someone of thier sins. which means justifying a sin is defined.

in addition, church have justified murder, adultery, and other things.

[zepfel]

just a thought, isnt it more likely that he was christened at birth? generally people are baptised a bit older, when theyre mature enough to make the decision themselves.

[sadolakced acid]

^ lest we forget the different sects of christianity.

[mysteriouscris]

Just because he was baptized when he was a baby doesn't mean he believes the Christian morals, gosh. Obviously he doesn't. You can't help being baptized when you're little, you can't stop it from happening, and then, you don't even know if you agree with the Christian ways because you don't know anything else. Obviously he doesn't agree with the Christian ways. OH WELL. That means he's not a true Christian. If he was, he wouldn't have committed suicide.

That's what I was going to say. All I've been reading is about how it's wrong to committ suicide becuse it's against something called religion. Not everybody believes in this rligion thing you speak of, so your views are completely lost on them(including me). I highly doubt that most people who succeed in suicide think "ohh geeze. My aunt will surely miss me. I'll just suck up all my sorrow and finish out this crummy life"

I feel I can somewhat relate to this man. If my mom died, anytime soon, before I actually grow up, I would kill myself. And why? Because my mom is my everything I cannot see trying to grow up without her. And when Im down to the point of suicide I won't think about anybody else because the point is no one can take the place of her and I'm sure that's what that guy was thinking, but I'm only guessing. He probably thought he'd already lived out his life, and he only wanted to be with his loved ones. I don't see anything wrong with that.

To get back more on the main topic. It's hard to imagine someone close to you killing themselves, but it's their choice. that's all it comes down to.


And if your so concerned about how someone killing themselves will make you feel, aren't you in turn being just as selfish?

[*disco infiltrator*]

just a thought, isnt it more likely that he was christened at birth? generally people are baptised a bit older, when theyre mature enough to make the decision themselves.

What, when they're 5? I mean, people have their first communion at like, 8, they had to have been baptized beforehand..

I don't know about you, but I didn't even know there was such a thing as atheism and that others were skeptical on the subject of God at age 8. I wasn't raised religiously, but since all my friends were Christian, I assumed I should say I believe in God too, even though I didn't really understand it. Now that I'm older, I'm pretty confident in my belief that there is no God, but even 3 years ago, I wasn't aware that there were people who didn't, or that the people that didn't believe in God weren't Satan-worshippers or something.