Copyright Law, the interpretation of Options

[sadolakced acid]

Alright, let's keep this a debate, not just stating opinions. that's important.
don't just state your opinion, support it

alright. here's some background

Copyright law prohibits the copying of Digital audio for commercial use. Copying of audio for personal use is allowed, but only first generation copies may be made (copies of the original) second generation copies are illegal (copies of copies). however, computers allow this, and thus the RIAA has said that using your computer to copy digital audio, no matter first or second gen. copies, is illegal. this was ruled as incorrect and not what the law says by a court.

First off, the obvious, is whether or not ripping your CDs to MP3s is illegal

also, is downloading music from online illegal? (copyright law only mentions distributing, not taking)

and, do new CDs that prevent ripping to MP3s, and DRM (digital rights management) WMAs violate the user right to copy?

[sadolakced acid]

(sorry about the double post, i wanted to separate my debate from the set-up/ prompt)

1. No, as these are 1st generation copies. first gen. copies are, by copyright law, legal; if used for personal use.

2. The act of downloading illegal music from online , even though it may be illegal, may or may not be illegal based on: if the download replaces the need to purchase the music, then it is illegal. If the download is not intended to replace a purchase, but instead is for something like sampling the music before buying, or to replace a damaged track, then it is legal

3. No, DRM wmas that limit transfers and Copy protect CDs that don't allow copys are illegal. It is a customer's right to make copies, and these products infringe upon that right.

[azn_r4pf4n]

Hmmmm... this might be tough. Lemme think...

I can only answer some questions now, the others i need to think.

and, do new CDs that prevent ripping to MP3s, and DRM (digital rights management) WMAs violate the user right to copy?

Well, if you were the user, yes it most likely would, but the prevention of ripping music was made for a good reason; to make sure the artist/band makes the amount of money they should get from selling the CD's.

Japan (I have a few Japanese CD's), has many copy-protected CD's, and if you go to places like yesasia.com, when your buyin a CD there, they tell you beforehand that you can't rip CD's onto your computer.

also, is downloading music from online illegal? (copyright law only mentions distributing, not taking)

Wow, its actually interesting to try to make the law exact as it can. Remember when they first had Napster 1.0? The RIAA sued Napster (the distributers of the music) for distributing the music AND sued the people who downloaded the music from it.

I dont really have much of an opinion on it, other than I consider it illegal. The artists/bands who make the music wouldn't make the amount of money they deserve from the music they make.

First off, the obvious, is whether or not ripping your CDs to MP3s is illegal

Yes, the internet is full of MP3 files, but if you know about the legal distributers that sell MP3 files like RealRhapsody and Napster 2.0. Maybe the people who sell the MP3 files rip the CD's into MP3's. I can't really say an opinion on that. I'll go back to that one later.

I'll reply back later.

[ComradeRed]

3. No, DRM wmas that limit transfers and Copy protect CDs that don't allow copys are illegal. It is a customer's right to make copies, and these products infringe upon that right.

I disagree. You don't have a right to copy anything that isn't yours. When someone sells you a CD, he doesn't sell you the songs... he sells you the right to listen to that one CD. If he wants to copy right his CD, it is his right to do so.

[azn_r4pf4n]

im not statin my opinion here, i'm just stating the main issue.

The RIAA was established to help the artists/bands prevent music piracy. Music piracy is a big issue and probably will remain a big issue as technology advances.

The big issue here is basically an issue for many other issues: fairness.
Like taxes, everybody argues for the fair amount of taxes. But for music, the RIAA trys to make it fair for the artists/bands to get the amount of money they deserve from selling their music by preventing the distribution of free music around the internet. But here's the other side of it: The people who download music for free don't think it's fair because they claim they're too cheap to buy the music themselves.

Copyright laws prevent music piracy, but as usual, still people download music off the internet for free.

[sadolakced acid]

Yes, the CD is just the right to listen to the song, but it's suppost to include the right to make back-ups.


` the artists aren't the ones hurt the most. It's the record companies.

when i buy a CD, i'm buying the right to listen to that CD in any CD player, any computer, and any Digital audio player. that's what i'm buying.

and if, for instance, i buy a copy protected CD that i can't rip to my computer and MP3 player, then i reserve the right to return it.

[ComradeRed]

You don't reserve any rights unless the other person agrees to it. If the other person tells you "I am selling you a copy protected CD" and you willingly buy it, you do not have a basis for returning it.

[sadolakced acid]

but. if i was not informed it was copy protected, i reserve the right to a refund, no?

[ComradeRed]

If it states on the thing that it is copy protected you should not get a refund. If it does not, then I guess you could, depending on the store's individual refund policy.

If the store says very clearly NO REFUNDS, then by buying something from the store, you are agreeing to the store's condition of sale, and thus do not have the right to return something.

But most NO REFUNDS stores lose customers, so usually stores will allow some refunding.

[mai_z]

First off, the obvious, is whether or not ripping your CDs to MP3s is illegal

Ripping CDs to MP3s for your own use is not illegal, as long as you are still in possession of the CD, when you are using the MP3s. Now, i don't mean that you need to carry the cd around everywhere you go, you just need to own it.

also, is downloading music from online illegal? (copyright law only mentions distributing, not taking)

Downloading from a legal, try-before-you-buy, or pay-per-song site is obviously not illlegal. Downloading from Kazaa, etc, technically should be illegal, but there are many catches to it. First of all, many people download music that they would not otherwise pay for, and there are also people who hear music they download, and develop a liking for that artist, leading to their purchase of a CD.

One of my friends is an artist in HK, and says that he has nothing against people downloading music, because it lets them hear his work, and music is his passion. However, the big thing is that the producers and music companies have little to no passion in music, their love is money. Downloading music to them is one less sale, and as those sales add up, in their minds, their profits go down. (which however is not true because cd sales go up with increased downloads). Morally, downloading is wrong, but in the eyes of an artist, it's just another way to spread their work.

and, do new CDs that prevent ripping to MP3s, and DRM (digital rights management) WMAs violate the user right to copy?

No, because on the back of the CD, it will say that the CD is protected. If you specifically asked if it was, and you were informed that it wasn't, then you have the right to a refund. Otherwise, you don't.

DRM is just another way for management companies to protect their investments, and you willingly buy their cds. You can just as easily not buy the CD, and they could do nothing about it. The format they choose to distribute their music in, is up to them, and there is nothing wrong with that

[*mipadi*]

First off, the obvious, is whether or not ripping your CDs to MP3s is illegal

No. I believe copyright law allows a person to shift their music or film to another medium. Even if that's still a grey area, I think that if I buy a CD, I should be allowed to shift it into whatever form I wish.

also, is downloading music from online illegal?  (copyright law only mentions distributing, not taking)

I believe so. At any rate, I think it is immoral to take something without just compensation from the creator, unless they expressly waive their rights.

and, do new CDs that prevent ripping to MP3s, and DRM (digital rights management) WMAs violate the user right to copy?

Yes, I believe so. DRM limits the rights of the consumers in numerous ways, especially violating the "fair use" provision of US Copyright Law.

[starlette]

Technically, you do have the right to copy songs from a cd you purchased into any medium you choose. For example, if you dont have a cd player because you live in the dark ages, so you take it to a friends house and record the cd to a tape so you can enjoy it in the car or something ( I know because I've done this lol) then thats fine. You just cannot share it with anyone. You can play it in their presence but you cannot make a copy for someone else. It must be for you own personal use. You also can't play it publicly, or take it to a club and sing to it. For public play of copyrighted music, you have to get permission from like ASCAP of BMI, so that they can monitor the play, get the money from it, and pay royalties to the proper people. This is why file sharing is illegal. Because when you pay for that cd, or record or whatever, you are basically consenting to using it strictly for you own personal use. Just like the FBI warning at the beggining of movies. By you purchasing that medium, you have the right to listen to it, and make as many copies of it as you want, as long as it is for personal use. If you give it to someone else, thats 15.00 that walmart should be making off the cd, in which goes up to the artists and the record companies. Think of each sale as an individual person. If you give the cd to 10 people, thats ten potential sales they could have made. Same with selling the cds. Unless you are a licenced seller, if you make money off of that cd, you are breaking the law. Because it isnt your money to make. I study copyright law because I am a singer, and I do not condone illegal downloading. The only downloading I did, was when my cds were stolen out of my car, I went through and downloaded songs that I hadn't put on my computer, but nothing else. So yeah.

[EriaNight]

My mom has been working in the film and music industry (she owns a studio in Nashville) for 30 years and here is what I have learned...

The Lessons:

1) Downloading music from online is not always illegal; it depends on the type of music and what kind of licenses are given to the person that downloads the music; for example, if you are on a free mp3 site and it has local bands that say you can download their music for free than it is not illegal, but say you find a random website that has "1 2 step" by Ciara and you can download it for free--> It probably is not legal.

2) Karamelle is very very right: If you are going to use the music in films, on websites, or play it on the radio, you need special licenses from ASCAP and BMI because most of their songs are under protection. A.K.A. if you use a song on your Xanga or personal site (like again "1 2 Step" ) it is probably not legal. But I doubt anybody actually cares. The RIAA does not have the time to check everybody's xanga for usage of unlicensed copyrighted songs.

3) I think it's very wrong for people to file share copyrighted songs anyway because I feel hurt personally...my mother works so hard on making her work perfect and then getting paid by the hour. I'll find out later that some of the songs she worked on are being illegally downloaded and copied by my friends and it just really upsets me sometimes.

Edit:// Did you take the time to realize that by taking unlicensed distributed music from online is illegal because you are taking distributed (not licensed to be distributed) music? [did that make sense..] Yeah...it Is (this was in response to "also, is downloading music from online illegal? (copyright law only mentions distributing, not taking)"...if you read all the rules on copyright, which I've read most of because I've had to deal with it all the time for my films, it does have many specifics and it's a whole lot longer than the paragraph you just wrote. If anyone wants me to provide a link so that they are better able to debate this topic just PM me or reply in this thread. I'll give you one.

[sadolakced acid]

No. I believe copyright law allows a person to shift their music or film to another medium. Even if that's still a grey area, I think that if I buy a CD, I should be allowed to shift it into whatever form I wish.


^ fair use only applies to cassette tapes. if you were to make copies to cassette tapes, then the law would make that legal.

copies to anything else is murky business, although courts have ruled it legal; the law doesn't actualy say it is.


now; here's how file sharing applies to me:

there are a few bands i would like to hear how they sound and see if i want to buy thier CD. lacuna coil, seether, godsmack.

now; my library doesn't have thier CDs. i can't listen to them online. i would like to download them off a P2P server; but i don't want to get prosecuted.

therefore; i haven't bought their CDs yet.
i'd like to, but i don't want to spend 15 bucks on a CD just to find out it sucks.

i think record companies would find significant increases in sales if they provided 2 or three 45 kps MP3 songs from each CD for download.

[*mipadi*]

^ fair use only applies to cassette tapes.  if you were to make copies to cassette tapes, then the law would make that legal. 

copies to anything else is murky business, although courts have ruled it legal; the law doesn't actualy say it is.

Mmm, I'm not sure where you got your information, but fair use applies to every medium that is covered by copyright law, including text, images, cassettes, CD's, DVD's, and so forth.

More about Fair Use provision

[sadolakced acid]

Mmm, I'm not sure where you got your information, but fair use applies to every medium that is covered by copyright law, including text, images, cassettes, CD's, DVD's, and so forth.

More about Fair Use provision

the law only specifically states cassette tapes, but has been applied to other mediums, IIRC...

[*mipadi*]

the law only specifically states cassette tapes, but has been applied to other mediums,  IIRC...

It's a minor point, but I think fair use has always applied to all mediums--in fact, I think it dealt with text first.

You can read about it in sections 107-118 of the US copyright code.

[sadolakced acid]

ehh. more reasons why copy protection is stupid:

creed's CD human clay was the top downloaded CD from p2p networks when it was released. i've borrowed a copy, and am trying to listen to it.

it's copy protected.

guess what. i can't burn it to my mp3 player. so i'm not going to listen to it. and because of that, i'm not going to buy the CD.

you'll say i wouldn't have bought the CD anyways if i could have burned it- well; here's a some CDs i've burned that i'm intending to buy:

breaking benjamin- saturate
evanescence- fallen
sum 41- chuck

bleh. i'd be even more pissed off it i bought the CD and couldn't rip it.

[waitwaitwait]

2.  The act of downloading illegal music from online , even though it may be illegal, may or may not be illegal based on:  if the download replaces the need to purchase the music, then it is illegal.  If the download is not intended to replace a purchase, but instead is for something like sampling the music before buying, or to replace a damaged track, then it is legal

How would they know if you were REALLY just sampling but not going to buy the CD later? That makes no sense.

[*mipadi*]

guess what.  i can't burn it to my mp3 player.  so i'm not going to listen to it.  and because of that, i'm not going to buy the CD.

That is a violation of rights, in my opinion. I refuse to buy any CD that doesn't allow me to copy it into MP3 form. If I pay $20 for the CD, I should be allowed to do with it whatever I wish, as long as I am not breaking copyright laws.

The DCMA is slowly eroding what few rights consumers once had.

[sadolakced acid]

That is a violation of rights, in my opinion. I refuse to buy any CD that doesn't allow me to copy it into MP3 form. If I pay $20 for the CD, I should be allowed to do with it whatever I wish, as long as I am not breaking copyright laws.

The DCMA is slowly eroding what few rights consumers once had.

what pisses me off the most is it wasn't labeled copy protected. nothing says it's copy protected. if i bought the CD, i'd analouge rip it and put it on torrent sites, just to spite them for making it so damned hard for my to just listen to it on what device i want to!

ehh. it's not stopping downloading either. all that's needed is one clean rip and upload to a P2P network.

EDIT: ha!
i used a different program made to ignore errors in the CD (which copy protection uses)...

[TaintedDesires]

Well, there is already the technology to download songs and copy cds. Before they came up with the technology, they should've thought about the negative sides to it. They can't just release a new thing and tell us we can't use it because it's never gonna happen. But I think downloading music is ok as long as you're not making any money off of it by selling it to your friends but if you erally support the artist, then you should buy the cd because if no one buys their cds, they won't release anymore cds. Thus leaving you with no music to download.