Creation or Evolution?, Which do you believe in? Options

[stryker76]

So you're saying God is vengeful and... mean?

< confused.

Yes God is Vengeful and Mean.....here are a few examples....there are lots more but i didnt feel like reading to find the rest.



Genesis 6-13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Exodus 3-20
And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Exodus 4-9
And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Exodus 7:17-21
17: Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
18: And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
19: And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
20: And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
21: And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

[Spirited Away]

^... i already know that, but thank you for the elaboration. i only asked her that because i didn't get the sarcasm at first.

[s_parker_luver]

evolution.
98% of modern human genes are the same as those of a chimpanzee.

[WHOngos144]

i believe in god's creation. but i also believe in evolution. meaning like he created us (as humans not primates), but other things, like bugs or animals or reptiles, evolved.

[stryker76]

Y would everything else have evolved from something but Human where jes created? If all the other creatures on the planet evolved from a common creature then we also evolved from something. There are no exceptions in nature.

[Joss-eh-lime]

i believe in creation

there are way too many holes in the evolution theory anyway

[*mipadi*]

there are way too many holes in the evolution theory anyway

Such as...?

[sadolakced acid]

^x2 how about you try to list these holes?


problems with creationism:

1- species have been seen to change. this is a physical fact that cannot be disputed. creationism asserts that god made all animals like they are today.

2- creationism does not account for microscopic beings, like bacteria and viruses, which we know exist if only through their effects. The bible doesn't mention them, so they cannot exist.

3- creationism asserts that man was on earth from virtually the begining of earth. This, however, conflicts with the observance that although adam and eve seemed to talk, there is no oral tradition, history, myth, or anything from nearly that long ago.

4- creationism states the age of the earth very short. It does not explain how things can be radioactively dated to before "earth's creation date", or how events can be dated, through a variety of methods, to before this 'creation date'

5- snakes can't talk.

6- the creationist rational "life is too complex to have just happened" fails to account for how the creator came to be.

7- who created the creator of the creator

8- creationism cannot explain natural selection, or even simply ecological events. The answer to everything in creationism is "god willed to to be". however, by this rationale, humans can be proved tobe purple beings with three eyes.

9- there is no physical evidence of creationism. There is not genetic evidence of creationism. the only evidence of creationism is one book, written by people decades after god's supposed death.

and many, many more.

[Joss-eh-lime]

Holes in The Evolution Hypothesis

how was the first cell created? a cell is so complex they cant just appear.
the idea of natural selection doesnt show how arms legs, and wings are formed.

[sadolakced acid]

the miller urey experiement demonstrated that it is possible for amino acids, and thus protiens and cells, to randomly form under certain conditions.

your link, by the way, is full of fallacies.

it said something about the probablility of a cell randomly forming to be nil?

how big is the universe?

infinetly big.

now, in a given section of space there is always at least one section( depending on how large the given section is)

the infinetly big universe divides into infinte sections with at least one star each, leading to infinete stars.

a certain percentage of stars have an earth like planet. it doesn't matter what teh percentage is, becuase anything time infinity is infinity.

therefore, there are infinity earthlike planets out there.

which means, in any given second, there are infinte tries to randomly create a cell.


seems like earth got lucky.

[Joss-eh-lime]

well there's no convincing you. you have all the scientific "evidence"
but i believe in creation.

[sadolakced acid]

but this is a debate forum, mind you, not a state your opinon forum.

why, pray tell, is evidence in quotes?

[*mipadi*]

well there's no convincing you. you have all the scientific "evidence"
but i believe in creation.

No one's disputing your belief, but it's customary to state your reasons when arguing a point in here.

[stryker76]

No one's disputing your belief, but it's customary to state your reasons when arguing a point in here.

You Call evolution a "belief." Its not. It is a theory that, as you can see, holds up pretty damn well. Evolution is a theory mean not quiet yet a law of the scientific community. Just like many other theories you live your life by every day. Cell Theory, Electric Theory, There are the Laws of gravity but the Definition of what gravity is, is still a theory.

Creationist live there life saying that because something isnt there doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Well then where is it? Where was it? and about how long will it take before i can see? The Bible as well as many other Holy Books contridict them selves all over the place. Or you have people that feel you need to take it literally(these are the type that Kill people) or the it is Metaphorical(most other people). There is no unification within your own religion.

So then how can it be that there is an Almighty God, when yet there are only a few that feel he actually exist? How can there be 1 Almight god and yet there are many other religions that feel thier god is almight and powerful? Or how bout the other religions that have many gods.

[*mipadi*]

You Call evolution a "belief." Its not. It is a theory that, as you can see, holds up pretty damn well. Evolution is a theory mean not quiet yet a law of the scientific community. Just like many other theories you live your life by every day. Cell Theory, Electric Theory, There are the Laws of gravity but the Definition of what gravity is, is still a theory.

I didn't call evolution a belief, actually. You misread my post.

[Joss-eh-lime]

No one's disputing your belief, but it's customary to state your reasons when arguing a point in here.

i was talking to sadolakced acid and he was disputing/challenging my belief . i stated my reasons in earlier posts

[NoSex]

It's sad how few Americans believe in natural Evolution.

[illumineering]

It's sad how few Americans believe in natural Evolution.

Here's something from the Pew Research Center...



It was released August 30, 2005. I was too lazy to get the info on the sample. I just thought it was interesting. A part of the article discussed how recent trends were showing more Americans believing in evolution.

[stryker76]

Of course more people have started o believe in Evolution....It something more tangible then religion. Religion is great for support when goin threw hard times. But if you think about everything that you have ever been tought in school or in most book it dont make since other then an other chapter in the mythology of the world.

Things never mentioned in the Bible:

Plate Tectonic



Feel free to add im to tired to think of the many other things

[NoSex]

Here's something from the Pew Research Center...



It was released August 30, 2005.  I was too lazy to get the info on the sample.  I just thought it was interesting.  A part of the article discussed how recent trends were showing more Americans believing in evolution.

Lots of different surveys tend to come up with lots of different answers. It's lame.

"In a 2001 Gallup poll on the origin and development of human beings [21] [22] a sample of about one thousand Americans were asked which statement came closest to their views on the origin and development of human beings. Of those polled, 45% chose "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so", 37% chose "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process", 12% chose "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process", and the remainder (6%) either volunteered a different response or had no opinion. When asked by name whether they believe in or lean more towards the "theory of creationism" or the "theory of evolution", 57% indicated creationism, 33% indicated evolution, and 10% responded "not sure."" - - - Wiki

Although, they are also all worder differently.

[illumineering]

Lots of different surveys tend to come up with lots of different answers. It's lame.

Just because different surveys support different perspectives does not mean they are lame. It's a valid form of sampling.

[*digital.fragrance*]

^x2  how about you try to list these holes?
problems with creationism:

1-  species have been seen to change.  this is a physical fact that cannot be disputed.  creationism asserts that god made all animals like they are today.

2-  creationism does not account for microscopic beings, like bacteria and viruses, which we know exist if only through their effects.  The bible doesn't mention them, so they cannot exist.

3-  creationism asserts that man was on earth from virtually the begining of earth.  This, however, conflicts with the observance that   although adam and eve seemed to talk, there is no oral tradition, history, myth, or anything from nearly that long ago.

4-  creationism states the age of the earth very short.  It does not explain how things can be radioactively dated to before "earth's creation date", or how events can be dated, through a variety of methods, to before this 'creation date'

5-  snakes can't talk.

6-  the creationist rational "life is too complex to have just happened" fails to account for how the creator came to be.

7-  who created the creator of the creator

8-  creationism cannot explain natural selection, or even simply ecological events.  The answer to everything in creationism is "god willed to to be".  however, by this rationale, humans can be proved tobe purple beings with three eyes.

9-  there is no physical evidence of creationism.  There is not genetic evidence of creationism.  the only evidence of creationism is one book, written by people decades after god's supposed death.

and many, many more.

1. Have you seen a species completely change? I know I haven't. Sure - try the Darwin moth stuff. The black moths were there the entire time... not some new species created. And did you know that in order to prove their point, Scientists glued the moths to trees to take pictures of them... and by the way, birds didn't prefer them. After the Industrial Revolution ended, the moth black/white ratio became 50/50.

2. The Bible doesn't have to mention everything - nothing mentions everything! Evolution doesn't mention everything.

3. Try Hebrew oral stories.

4. Scientists used that dating method to test a puppy that was 6 weeks old.. the dating found that he was over 1,000 years old....

5. Yep, Satan was the one who did the talking in the form of a serpent.. serpents don't speak......

6. Humans don't know everything. Part of the step of faith is to realize that. Our brains can't compute it because everythign has had a beginning. Their has to be someone/thing that has been there all along... or else how would anything exist?

7. There was only one. He has always been there.

8. No it does not. But neither does evolution explain human psychology. The bible isn't a "science book."

9. But I can prove the book is true, and therefore so is creationism.

Yes God is Vengeful and Mean.....here are a few examples....there are lots more but i didnt feel like reading to find the rest.
Genesis 6-13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Exodus 3-20
And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Exodus 4-9
And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Exodus 7:17-21
17: Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
18: And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
19: And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
20: And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
21: And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

Wow... out of context. He is vengeful, but he is not mean. The Bible often says "For Vengeance is the Lord's"

In context:

Genesis 6-13
God was going to wipe out the human race because they were totally evil, inside and out. They deserved it. But He in his infinite grace saw Noah, the only good man on earth. God spared us.

Exodus 3-20
He was protecting his chosen people from being persecuted. Egypt was enslaving them at the time.

Exodus 4-9
Yep, the first plague of Egypt. The egyptians kept torturing the Hebrews and didn't listen to God, so he punished them to protect and save his godly people.


Exodus 7:17-21
Hmm. Same thing. Egypt was getting there just desert.

How about Christ dying for us for our sins? He sacrificed his perfect life so that we could come to God.

[*disco infiltrator*]

You cannot prove the Bible is true. If so, do it. People have been trying forever to prove that the things that the Bible states are true, but no one has been able to. I would like to see how you think you can over anyone else ever in existence.

[Spirited Away]

In context:

Genesis 6-13
God was going to wipe out the human race because they were totally evil, inside and out.  They deserved it.  But He in his infinite grace saw Noah, the only good man on earth.  God spared us.

Exodus 3-20
He was protecting his chosen people from being persecuted.  Egypt was enslaving them at the time.  

Exodus 4-9
Yep, the first plague of Egypt.  The egyptians kept torturing the Hebrews and didn't listen to God, so he punished them to protect and save his godly people.
Exodus 7:17-21
Hmm. Same thing.  Egypt was getting there just desert.

How about Christ dying for us for our sins?  He sacrificed his perfect life so that we could come to God.

Explain to me then, the question that has been nagging at me for the longest time and no Christian cBer has answered sufficiently.

Why does God punish evil humans, when God gave humans the free will to be evil? If God so love Man, why doesn't He create us in His image AND bless us with His intolerance for evil from inception, so that we don't suffer Hell? In other words, why gives us free will, then punishes us when we use his Gift?

8. No it does not. But neither does evolution explain human psychology. The bible isn't a "science book."

... What you're saying doesn't make any sense in response to Mr. Acid's point. We're not claiming that Evolution explains the human psyche, we're saying that Creationism isn't science.

2. The Bible doesn't have to mention everything - nothing mentions everything! Evolution doesn't mention everything.

Pfft, please. Science does not claim to know all, God, however, does.

9. But I can prove the book is true, and therefore so is creationism.

... How can you, or anyone for that matter, prove the Bible and Creationism to be universal truths? Try it. Right now.

6. Humans don't know everything. Part of the step of faith is to realize that. Our brains can't compute it because everythign has had a beginning. Their has to be someone/thing that has been there all along... or else how would anything exist?

We don't know everything, but we're always learning. To say that to have faith that things are the way they are is a hinderment to gaining knowledge. We must always ask the question "WHY?" or "HOW?". For example, if no one ever wondered why the sky is blue and everyone simply have faith that the sky is blue just because it is blue... then where would we be? If 1+1=2 and we never asked why, but just have faith that it works that way, then how can we ever be sure that 1+1+1=3?
Though we don't know everything, we cannot depend on faith. Faith does not equal knowledge.

[*digital.fragrance*]

1. Explain to me then, the question that has been nagging at me for the longest time and no Christian cBer has answered sufficiently.

Why does God punish evil humans, when God gave humans the free will to be evil? If God so love Man, why doesn't He create us in His image AND bless us with His intolerance for evil from inception, so that we don't suffer Hell? In other words, why gives us free will, then punishes us when we use his Gift?

2.  ... What you're saying doesn't make any sense in response to Mr. Acid's point. We're not claiming that Evolution explains the human psyche, we're saying that Creationism isn't science.

3.  Pfft, please. Science does not claim to know all, God, however, does.

4.  ... How can you, or anyone for that matter, prove the Bible and Creationism to be universal truths? Try it. Right now.


5.   We don't know everything, but we're always learning. To say that to have faith that things are the way they are is a hinderment to gaining knowledge. We must always ask the question "WHY?" or "HOW?". For example, if no one ever wondered why the sky is blue and everyone simply have faith that the sky is blue just because it is blue... then where would we be? If 1+1=2 and we never asked why, but just have faith that it works that way, then how can we ever be sure that 1+1+1=3?
Though we don't know everything, we cannot depend on faith. Faith does not equal knowledge.

1. God gave us a more specific choice -- to follow Him, or to not and take the consequences. Everything has consequences, even good things -- it's a known fact. This was God's version. He couldn't force anyone to follow Him, so He gave them a choice. The whole idea is that He wanted us to willingly follow Him. He knew there would be some that wouldn't, but they would face the consequences. They made a choice to face the consequeces.

In Noah's time, it looked like all of the human race was evil. Every last one - every last thought - every last action. It got really dirty... worse than now by far. In Genesis, it tells us that demon angels wre having sex with women... gross????!!! That's just an example of how bad it was. There was no point in them existing if they wasn't anyone following God, the One who created all of them. But he found Noah, and Noah was righteous and followed God, so he spared the human race.

In Egypt, God used Moses to warn the Pharoah of what was going to happened if they didn't listen and let His people go. Pharoah had a choice, he chose, and faced the consequences of 10 plaques.

Hope that helped - sorry no one has explained that before.

2. Okay, my bad - I misunderstood. Creationism isn't what you call science but we can use science to back it up.

3. God can't pour all of His knowledge into a book. It's impossible. It's like putting all textbooks into one.. plus another 50000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 more. Infinity in a nutshell...
Anyway, why would God want to tell us everything in the first place? Because of that knowledge base, it would make more us equal to him (minus the supernatural powers and more).

4. I'm no professor, but I can back up Creationism with scientific evidence:

a. In order for the earth's magnetic field to be as strong as it is at this point in time (the strength of it slowly depletes), it would have been too strong -- it would have fried all life. Or, if it was strong enough to still support life, there would be no magnetic field because it would have depleted into nothing by today, and we wouldn't be here.

b. The Second Law of Thermodynamics can be stated in many different ways, e.g.:

That the entropy of the universe tends towards a maximum (in simple terms, entropy is a measure of disorder)

Usable energy is running out or

Information tends to get scrambled or

Order tends towards disorder or

A random jumble won’t organize itself or

ORDER FROM DISORDER????? It is like a book factory exploding and creating a dictionary. Evolution contradicts scientific law.

c. Spontaneous generation is now been accepted as impossible. Louis Pasteur conducted an expreriment using flasks that proved this statement. Only biogenesis is possible.

d. "The various australopithecines (the group in which Lucy was said to belong) are, indeed, more different from both African apes and humans in most features than these latter are from each other. Part of the basis of this acceptance has been the fact that even opposing investigators have found these large differences as they too, used techniques and research designs that were less biased by prior notions as to what the fossils might have been."

In layman's terms, this group is not part of the missing links to humans.

Tell me how men could have sculpted an entire missing link out of a single tooth?? or when they put together a man and a monkey's bones and called it a missing link?

e. The Flood... how else could a Grand Canyon like that be made?? That also is an explanation for the 150 million years of the missing geological time scale at that site. It's a commonly accepted fact that the Grand Canyon is the most complete of all evidence of the geological time scale, but it is missing 150 million years (and that's not small). The amount of pressure that the Flood would have gerenated explains the missing time peice.

f. Ok, so why have there HUGE amounts of drift-fish fossils (fish that float along with current) found all facing the exact same direction and in the exact same layer of the earth (indicating the same time). That means a MASSIVE current, a HUGE CURRENT was present.. not just some regular ocean. Also fish fossils of fish with food still in their mouth have been found all over the Earth. They say that fossils form over 1,000 years.... i don't think that a fish would take 1,000 years to halfway eat their meal. There had to be Sudden pressure, and a sudden death - a.k.a - the flood.

5. I must have not articulated my arguement enough - we can't handle, or our brains are incapable of handling how God is. He never came to be. He always was. If all of our faith has to be based on knowledge (and I agree that knowledge is power when it comes to things like this), how can we have faith one of our friends won't double cross us, for example - we know they won't because of their previous repeated actions of defending us and being our friend. In the same way, we see the repeated previous (and continuing) work of God and have faith that He is who He is.

And by the way, knowledge can't explain anything - there are supernatural things happening in this world that no amount of knowledge can explain.