Politics and the whole scheme of the Govm., Do we really know? Options

[Devastation]

Well, as we all know the government has plenty of secrets kept from the US. But do we really know what is going on in our american society? all the lies that have been formed due to the lack of intelligence of the bush administration. Yes bush is a bad president, the only really good decision of his was prolly to get a new haircut. But he is our president....for now. But the secrets the are being kept from the american people are wrong. The new movie talkin and provoking the bush administration is a good movie and raises many thoughts and opinions. But, what about roswell? what about osama and saddam? what about the nukes that we have, what about all the casualities, what about all the damn deaths we have to suffer due to the lack of security that the f**king president lacks. Sorry you guys just im sick in tired of it all and i need you to relate to me so i dont feel crazy lol. Thanx for your time.

[jo3]

if the people new all the secrets that the government had, then there would be chaos. the reasons the govt keeps secrets are the same as why anyone else keeps secrets:

1) they don't wanna say anything until they're sure that its true
2) some of their secrets might scare the shit out of some ppl
i can't think of any more at the moment

here's an example of why they should keep secrets:

WWII. Britain had broken into the Axis power's codes, and they knew that they were going to be attacked...big time. however, Churchill decided not to tell the public (because there would be absolute chaos), nor did he try to defend it (because doing so would show the enemy that their code has been broken). so churchill sacrified thousands of deaths, but he knew everything that the Germans were gonna do.

some sacrifices just have to be made

and about roswell. do you really need to know if aliens have landed on the earth? if people found out, they'd be freaking out. "this is the 2nd coming of Christ! i swear!!" (actually that might be a good thing cuz ppl would go around asking for forgiveness for everything they did wrong, but then again, those who don't care would do as much crap as they could before they "died")

if you haven't seen it yet, you should watch a show called Alias (it's on ABC). its about a girl named Sydney Bristow, who's a CIA agent. if you watch that, you'll know the importance of keeping secrets.

i don't get it. whenever something bad happens, it's always the Presidents fault. all the casualties? what are you talking about? is it more than the million or so ppl that died during WWII? maybe FDR's a bad president too cuz he let that happen.

and the lack of security? are you referring to 9/11? there's been a lot of talking about whether or not the govt had enough info to prove that an attack like that would happen, but 1 problem: it was all circumstantial...there was no direct proof. and, how is the government gonna make airports more secure? check EVERYTHING in EVERY single bag? that would mean that you would have to come 10-15 hrs before your flight time to have ur bags checked. or maybe put air marshalls on each plane? considering the number of planes that fly in and out of the US, that would mean that citizens would have to pay a LOT more taxes (cuz the money's gotta come from somewhere).

one option that i heard about (which sounds reasonable) is to allow for no carry on luggage. that means no bags, no purses, no laptops. maybe a book or folder. that means that the only type of threat that can be made is "i have a bomb in my luggage." but airport security should be able to detect a big bomb.

i like the idea. but i bet people would complain (which wouldn't make sense because i bet some of the people who would complain would be the same people who says that there's not enough airport security)

[ComradeRed]

1)  they don't wanna say anything until they're sure that its true
2)  some of their secrets might scare the shit out of some ppl
i can't think of any more at the moment

So if I knew that someone was about to shoot you, should I not tell you beacuse it might scare you? The government has WAY too much power to keep secrets. The government isn't your neighbor. The government could do anything it wants to you, as many Americans have learned the hard way.

"Secrecy is the begining of tyranny."
--Robert Heinlein

WWII.  Britain had broken into the Axis power's codes, and they knew that they were going to be attacked...big time.  however, Churchill decided not to tell the public (because there would be absolute chaos), nor did he try to defend it (because doing so would show the enemy that their code has been broken).  so churchill sacrified thousands of deaths, but he knew everything that the Germans were gonna do.

some sacrifices just have to be made

During a war, perhaps. But tyranny usually happens AFTER a war, not during.

The key is the integrity of public figures. Abe Lincoln once said that it is better to tear a few holes in the Constitution and FIX THEM UP LATER than to lose it completely. I agree with what Lincoln said -- but the key is to FIX THEM UP LATER -- which Lincoln did, but less honorable men like FDR and Truman did not.

and about roswell.  do you really need to know if aliens have landed on the earth?  if people found out, they'd be freaking out.  "this is the 2nd coming of Christ!  i swear!!" (actually that might be a good thing cuz ppl would go around asking for forgiveness for everything they did wrong, but then again, those who don't care would do as much crap as they could before they "died")

Once again, IF ordinary people like me and you would be "freaking out"... what makes you think politicians are always calm and in control? If something is that scary, politicians would be "freaking out" as well...

I don't believe Rosewell happened. Even if the governemnt says aliens landed, it is highly unlikely. Nonetheless, the fact is if something bad is about to happen, people should know about it so they can plan ahead.

if you haven't seen it yet, you should watch a show called Alias (it's on ABC).  its about a girl named Sydney Bristow, who's a CIA agent.  if you watch that, you'll know the importance of keeping secrets.

In Alias, the CIA operates as essentially a Secret Police, depicted as free to kill and torture and destroy whoever they want. Is this REALLY the kind of society you want to live in?

"I would NEVER have agreed to creating the CIA, had I known it would become the American Gestapo."
--President Harry Truman

This is Truman -- someone who had no qualms about bending the law -- imagine what Jefferson or Lincoln would have said about the CIA?

i don't get it.  whenever something bad happens, it's always the Presidents fault.  all the casualties?  what are you talking about?  is it more than the million or so ppl that died during WWII?  maybe FDR's a bad president too cuz he let that happen.

Hitler declared war on US in WWII. Japan bombed Pearl on Dec 7, and Hitler declared war on Dec 11. I don't remember Hussein declaring war on us. I supported the War in Afghanistan -- Afghanistan attacked us first -- Iraq never did.

and the lack of security?  are you referring to 9/11?  there's been a lot of talking about whether or not the govt had enough info to prove that an attack like that would happen, but 1 problem: it was all circumstantial...there was no direct proof.

And there was no proof of terrorists in Iraq... yet somehow that was enough to invade them.

and, how is the government gonna make airports more secure?  check EVERYTHING in EVERY single bag?  that would mean that you would have to come 10-15 hrs before your flight time to have ur bags checked.  or maybe put air marshalls on each plane?  considering the number of planes that fly in and out of the US, that would mean that citizens would have to pay a LOT more taxes (cuz the money's gotta come from somewhere).

The best way to stop terrorism is to deal with the root causes -- STOP SENDING BILLIONS OF TAX PAYER DOLLARS TO ISRAEL.

"Some people say Israel is our only friend in the Mid East. They forget to mention that, before Israel, we didn't have any enemies."
--Robert Orben

one option that i heard about (which sounds reasonable) is to allow for no carry on luggage.  that means no bags, no purses, no laptops.  maybe a book or folder.  that means that the only type of threat that can be made is "i have a bomb in my luggage."  but airport security should be able to detect a big bomb.

i like the idea.  but i bet people would complain (which wouldn't make sense because i bet some of the people who would complain would be the same people who says that there's not enough airport security)

Airlines are private companies. They should be allowed to set their own policies towards what you are allowed to carry on THEIR planes... After all, they are THEIR planes... not George Bush's. He's bankrupted enough companies as is.

[jo3]

So if I knew that someone was about to shoot you, should I not tell you beacuse it might scare you?

Once again, IF ordinary people like me and you would be "freaking out"... what makes you think politicians are always calm and in control? If something is that scary, politicians would be "freaking out" as well...

a few people knowing is a lot different than hundreds of millions of people knowing

In Alias, the CIA operates as essentially a Secret Police, depicted as free to kill and torture and destroy whoever they want. Is this REALLY the kind of society you want to live in?

of course this isn't the kind of society i'd wanna live in. but i'd rather want the CIA to do their dirty work elsewhere than worry about getting attacked at home.

Hitler declared war on US in WWII. Japan bombed Pearl on Dec 7, and Hitler declared war on Dec 11. I don't remember Hussein declaring war on us. I supported the War in Afghanistan -- Afghanistan attacked us first -- Iraq never did.

And there was no proof of terrorists in Iraq... yet somehow that was enough to invade them.

that's true. in a previous post i mentioned that some of the not-so-good reasons bush attacked mostly were:
1) oil
2) finish his dad's job

The best way to stop terrorism is to deal with the root causes -- STOP SENDING BILLIONS OF TAX PAYER DOLLARS TO ISRAEL.

we can't just abandon our friend now. that was a mistake we made years ago. we promised to make a nation for Jewish people, and we decided to be allies with them.

Airlines are private companies. They should be allowed to set their own policies towards what you are allowed to carry on THEIR planes... After all, they are THEIR planes... not George Bush's. He's bankrupted enough companies as is.

if thats the case, then people should blame airplane companies, and not bush, for 9/11 and for not having tighter air security. but like i said before, everyone seems to blame bush for everything

1 question: where do you find all these quotes? you made a post w/ all this info, and all these quotes, in 11 minutes...how?

[ComradeRed]

First let me re-iterate my point:

IT IS PERFECTLY FINE FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP SECRETS. But when it does, it is the RIGHT -- and the DUTY -- of the citizens to distrust the government and be wary of its moves...

After all, people keep secrets ... but when someone keeps too many of them from you, will you still trust that person?

a few people knowing is a lot different than hundreds of millions of people knowing

So would it be okay if I told 10 random people on the street?

People are people.

of course this isn't the kind of society i'd wanna live in. but i'd rather want the CIA to do their dirty work elsewhere than worry about getting attacked at home.

But when you give them the leverage to do dirty work elsewhere, eventually they will do dirty work at home... or foreign agencies will do dirty work at home as well. This is what happens in history.

we can't just abandon our friend now. that was a mistake we made years ago. we promised to make a nation for Jewish people, and we decided to be allies with them.

We promised to be Hitler's friend in 1934. The New York Times published an article in 1934 where it said that we should thank God for Hitler, who would help us fight communism. Things change.

f thats the case, then people should blame airplane companies, and not bush, for 9/11 and for not having tighter air security. but like i said before, everyone seems to blame bush for everything

1 question: where do you find all these quotes? you made a post w/ all this info, and all these quotes, in 11 minutes...how?

haha... Congress research...

[jo3]

IT IS PERFECTLY FINE FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP SECRETS. But when it does, it is the RIGHT -- and the DUTY -- of the citizens to distrust the government and be wary of its moves...

that's true. i think the government should keep their secrets, but they should tell the public what the secret was years down the road, when knowing the secret wouldn't matter. because that would tell the people that although the government needs to keep some things secret, they still wanna inform their people of whats going on...even if its years later

We promised to be Hitler's friend in 1934. The New York Times published an article in 1934 where it said that we should thank God for Hitler, who would help us fight communism. Things change.

i've never heard about that, but i've never researched it either. but even if thats the case, Israel didn't send a race or religious group to concentration camps (or...i don't know about it). and even though the US didn't know about the concentration camps until the whole thing was over, they did however know that Hitler had attacked Belgium first, and later Britain and France, our Allies.

yes...things change. but i don't think we'll abandon the friendship w/ Israel until something drastic happens (like they attack one of our Allies or launch a nuke at us)

[ComradeRed]

1) Fine ... Then I should be allowed to keep secrets from the government ... like my bank accounts in the Cayman Islands. It's only fair that everyone adheres to the same standards of conduct?

2) Um ... Israel has never attacked a neutral country? What about the Six Day War? Israel preemptively attacked FOUR countries that had never fired a shot at Israel. Or when Israel attacked teh USS Liberty during that same war, killing many American sailors ... because Israel was afraid of America finding out about its plans to attack Syria? Or what about in the 70s, when the Israeli Air Force blew up a power plant in Iraq ... even though the two countries were at peace ... and what about the Palestinians being herded onto concentration areas?

Israel is INFAMOUS for attacking neutral countries.

[jo3]

weren't those all years ago?

[ComradeRed]

Yeah... but Israel still attacked many neutral countries, you said Israel never did.

[jo3]

no i didn't

[ComradeRed]

Lol, nice post editing.

[DavidxN]

My 2nd duty in life is to work my way up into the government and find out the secrets!!! It'll take years but ill find out who killed JFK, you guys watch, ill come back and leak the secrets...or be hypnotized and brainwashed not to but whatever ill find out