god, part 2 Options

[sadolakced acid]

alright, i'm just joining the debate, so bear with me.
i've also never read the bible, and have no intention of. so bear with me.


jesus was jewish. then why do christains ( some) hate jews so much?

if jesus and god are interchangable, why say "jesus's word" instead of "god's word."

if god created the earth, who created god? was god just there? if god created the universe, then where was god before the universe? what was there before space and time? if god created the universe, he must have been there before the universe. which means that he must not be in the universe. which means, he is not in space, or time. unless our universe is just one of many and we're like an ant farm to god...

well, if god is not in space or time, then he cannot exist, not in our dimensions. he can exist in, say, a spirit dimension if you belive in one. but not our universe.

our universe is expanding at light speed. god would have to have traveled very much faster, came to earth, and with his non-existance ( in our dimensions) copluated with mary ( who was very much real in our dimensions.)

now if i'm not mistaken, the sexual reproduction requires 2 cells. the female egg and the male sperm. the formation of the sperm is miosis. one cell divides twice to create 4 haploid cells. these cells are alive. they have to be. they're cells.

now, if god and mary were to have a 'normal' ( like, not deformed) child, both the egg and the sperm would have to have had good DNA in them. i won't question mary's DNA.

but if god were truely the father of jesus, that means that god must be able to produce sperm. after all , jesus was born the normal way. no divine light dropped him at mary's feet. but if god were to have produced sperm, then he must have had living cells. living cells die, and must be replaced. every time a cell divides to replace, the ends of the DNA strands fray and get shorter. it's like shoe laces. this is why you, as a mortal, will die. you're DNA ends run out so your artery walls and everything else can't divide as much anymore, and the cells get old. and you die. now, if god had DNA, and he could produce sperm, that means, he was alive. that doesn't mean he wasn't immortal- i'm getting to that. there are means of replacing the ends of the DNA. cancer cells do it. that's why cancer doesn't die out on it's own. now here's a problem. the act of making protiens that lengthen the DNA hijacks the cells real purpose. that's why cancer is bad. but wasn't god outside the universe? living cells can't travel faster than light.

so, in effect, if god were immortal, he would have to have been a blob of sperm producing cancer. and he'd have to have been on earth already. impossible

so, we consider another possibility. he was not immortal- it all works out. but the bible says he's immortal, so let's throw this one one.

the other possibility i can think of is that god got sperm from another male. god is still the immortal erythreal spirt. but then, jesus wouldn't really be his son, would he?

and another thing. let's assume, some how god managed to come to earth and produce sperm. if jesus is god, that means jesus is god's clone ( talking biologicaly) the only way this can happen is if mary had the exact same DNA as god. which also makes mary god. but the bible doens't say this.

so we come to the possiblility that god is a spirit that can posses people- makes sense. he's the holy spirit when he's not in people, he possesed a person to ... er... have sex ( surely not rape, right?) with mary. and then he possesed jesus.

but all this possesion sounds a bit like.. the devil. so we either throw this one out, or we say the devil is like god, only evil.

which would make sense, but the jesuse wouldn't be god's son, he'd be the man who god possesed's son.

prove me wrong. without bible verses, please.

[*tweeak*]

dont mean to spam, but i dont feel like going 15 pages back to argue with someone. you think its about time for part 3?

[Spirited Away]

dont mean to spam, but i dont feel like going 15 pages back to argue with someone. you think its about time for part 3?

Well, ya know, God I lasted for more than 50 pages. This one is still... fresh.

[CrimsonArchangel]

Who added to it then?

If you really read carefully, every version of the Bible is just that. A version. The overall message is still the same. Some versions just use old english (the one used when the Bible was translated to the English language) and others use more simplified, easy to understand english. The message is still the same, no one has added or taken away.

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion. (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"

Genesis 1:16
God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.


I will answer more in depth tomorrow, or at least when I get some sleep...

I will have to say, and I mean it as a joke, THANK GOD for funny, smart and friendly guys... there are so few of those left...

Well, that's it for now... I can seriously barely keep my eyes open... and I have to be up by 6 tomorrow. G'nite!

[MeanBastard]

Sweet, its a God thrad. Quick, whats the debate?

[Spirited Away]

If you really read carefully, every version of the Bible is just that. A version. The overall message is still the same. Some versions just use old english (the one used when the Bible was translated to the English language) and others use more simplified, easy to understand english. The message is still the same, no one has added or taken away.

When things are translated, there will be some things, ideas or wording, that will be slightly changed to fit the new language.

For example, passionate, powerful, strong, great are all words that can describe a feeling. However, they can have different meaning or interpretation depending on the people who translates these words into other languages.

There are many world renown books that have been translated to one language MANY time by different translators.

I feel there can be this effect when the Bible is written and translated/interpreted from one language to another.

Genesis 1:16
God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

Yes, this is where I agree because of my belief in a Creator. But the Bible doesn't explain about the orbits... In fact, the verse that I provided seems to say that the Earth is the center of the universe instead of the Sun.

I will answer more in depth tomorrow, or at least when I get some sleep...

Poor, poor you. I hope you had a good sleep.

[Retrogressive]

There is no God.
Man is God.
There is no God.

[*CrackedRearView*]

There is no God.
Man is God.
There is no God.

Where'd you hear that?

[CrimsonArchangel]

In short, I mean to say that they wouldn't be flawed if God had meant for them to be perfect in every way: mind, body, and spirit.

Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it

I'll use this verse again, and I'll try to explain it as well. Perhaps this version of it will make more sense.

Romans 8
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it

After much thinking (my brain is fried after that, ) I'm going to revise what I said about Adam and Eve's "perfection".
What this is saying is that the creation was subjected to frustration and flaws in life, but not by its own choice, but by the choice of the one that instilled that frustration in it. Now, does this mean that they were flawed, and thus not perfect? I don't know. Going on your thoughts, Fae, it is perfectly plausible what you said. If they were "perfect", then they would have not been tempted. But, there is also the possibility that the one who tempted them, being at least ten times more powerful and more perfect than they were, was able to bypass their "lower perfection" (for lack of better words) and tempt them. The exact answer, I don't know, as much as I would truly like to.
Hope that made sense.

Would this exception include good people who do not believe in God not going to Hell?

I *truly* wish I could tell you yes, but the sad truth is that I don't know... I say that because I know many good people that do not believe in God as well...
But I can tell you this. God is a loving God. He would not allow those he created to be punished for eternity like that. That is just plain dumb and not nice. So, in short, the Hell of popular culture does not exist. (I think I might have said that already, but hey... )

Ah, I see. The title is self-proclaimed.

Pretty much. But I have a feeling I'm missing out on something here, for some strange reason, so I will go reasearch more and I'll get back to yah ;-).

I see.

Is that a good "I see", or a bad "I see"?

The first one implies roundess, but like I said, to be more precise... the earth is spherical.

A circle *is* flat, like you said, but it doesn't imply roundness because it only has one dimension. A circle implies curves, and curves don't exactly have to be round (at least not entirely). Roundness applies to spheres, IMO.

Poor, poor you. I hope you had a good sleep.

Thanks, . Enough sleep does do wonders, haha.

When things are translated, there will be some things, ideas or wording, that will be slightly changed to fit the new language.

Yes, but the overall message is still the same.

Check these out, and if you can, tell me what the overall message is saying.

John 3:16 :: New International Version (NIV)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 :: The Message (MSG)
This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.

John 3:16 :: Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.

Some of the wording may be different, but if you read carefully, the message is the same.

[strice]

i'm with retro.

[sadolakced acid]

There is no God.
Man is God.
There is no God.

and then there is no man.


ahh, but you see. god does exist. because some people who benifit greatly from his existance say so. it's kind of like bush saying there were WMDs in iraq. if he said so, then he could attack iraq. so he said so.


i belive the correct statement is

there is no 'God'
there are gods.
gods are humans.
humans with weapons.
because all gods are
are people with the power
to end your life.
we are all
gods.

[ikayto]

gods were developed by people to make sense of the world; i believe god is nothing more than something to keep us all in line.

[Spirited Away]

Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it

What this is saying is that the creation was subjected to frustration and flaws in life, but not by its own choice, but by the choice of the one that instilled that frustration in it. Now, does this mean that they were flawed, and thus not perfect? I don't know. Going on your thoughts, Fae, it is perfectly plausible what you said. If they were "perfect", then they would have not been tempted. But, there is also the possibility that the one who tempted them, being at least ten times more powerful and more perfect than they were, was able to bypass their "lower perfection" (for lack of better words) and tempt them. The exact answer, I don't know, as much as I would truly like to.
Hope that made sense.
I *truly* wish I could tell you yes, but the sad truth is that I don't know... I say that because I know many good people that do not believe in God as well...
But I can tell you this. God is a loving God. He would not allow those he created to be punished for eternity like that. That is just plain dumb and not nice. So, in short, the Hell of popular culture does not exist. (I think I might have said that already, but hey...  )
Pretty much. But I have a feeling I'm missing out on something here, for some strange reason, so I will go reasearch more and I'll get back to yah ;-).
Is that a good "I see", or a bad "I see"? 
A circle *is* flat, like you said, but it doesn't imply roundness because it only has one dimension. A circle implies curves, and curves don't exactly have to be round (at least not entirely). Roundness applies to spheres, IMO.

I know this message is old and I'm bringing this back from its rest, but oh well. I realized that I haven't answered to your comment to me, Angel, and I'm going to attempt it now because I have been seeing you posting around here again.

Yes, I see what you mean about a higher perfection overpowering the lower, but if we are to say that Satan is perfect, then we must dissect into what perfection is and how one achieves it. If humans are only able to achieve lower perfection, since God has made us so, and we are drawn by a Higher Perfect to be evil, then should it not be the fault of our Creator that made us so less perfect that we must fall to evil?

Allow me to rephrase. If God made us to be perfect, but not keep into account that our lesser perfect can be overcome by Satan's higher perfection, then shouldn't God be at fault for human failings since He made us susceptible?


As for translations having an "overall" similar message, yes I agree. However, with translations, there can be things that are taken out and put in. People usually refer to the most recent translations and translate to their own language, so who's to say that things didn't get taken out or added because things sounds more powerful when words are combined a certain way?

[CrimsonArchangel]

Allow me to rephrase. If God made us to be perfect, but not keep into account that our lesser perfect can be overcome by Satan's higher perfection, then shouldn't God be at fault for human failings since He made us susceptible?

Ah, back to our lovely debating!

Ok, to the point now. I don't know if you are familiar with the belief that Satan was first an angel of light, blah blah, he got jealous of God's position, blah blah, got kicked out of heaven and became what we know today as the Devil, blah blah. That is personally what I believe in, I don't know what you have heard... so I'll go with what I know.

Lucifer was the brightest angel in heaven, just below God himself. Then he began to grow jealous of God and led a rebellion against him. As a result, he was thrown down from heaven and onto earth. Before all of that, he was perfect. Just like all angels are. However, jealousy and hate made his perfection diminish to much lower levels, so when God created humans, yes, he made them perfect, but what seems more credible to me is that Lucifer wanted beings to be at his level, not at the great level God had created them. (A little back story before I continue. Yes, I know the delicate issue it is to quote the Bible, but... this kinda needs it. The Bible says that God created us just below the level of Angels. Lucifer had let himself fall between humans and Angels, so while still at a higher level of perfection than humans, God and his angels were still high above him. Did that make sense...?) So, at the end, Satan managed to persuade humans to believe his tricks and fall down below his level of perfection.

Aiya... I don't know why, but to me it seems that my ability to write coherent thoughts has left me... let me know if this made sense. Its this school I tell you... its Tennessee that drives me nuts...

[Spirited Away]

Ah, back to our lovely debating! 

Haha!

Ok, to the point now. I don't know if you are familiar with the belief that Satan was first an angel of light, blah blah, he got jealous of God's position, blah blah, got kicked out of heaven and became what we know today as the Devil, blah blah. That is personally what I believe in, I don't know what you have heard... so I'll go with what I know.

I'm familiar with a few stories, some more outlandish than others, but I know the version you're refering to as it seems to be the most popular one.

Lucifer was the brightest angel in heaven, just below God himself. Then he began to grow jealous of God and led a rebellion against him. As a result, he was thrown down from heaven and onto earth. Before all of that, he was perfect. Just like all angels are. However, jealousy and hate made his perfection diminish to much lower levels, so when God created humans, yes, he made them perfect, but what seems more credible to me is that Lucifer wanted beings to be at his level, not at the great level God had created them. (A little back story before I continue. Yes, I know the delicate issue it is to quote the Bible, but... this kinda needs it. The Bible says that God created us just below the level of Angels. Lucifer had let himself fall between humans and Angels, so while still at a higher level of perfection than humans, God and his angels were still high above him. Did that make sense...?) So, at the end, Satan managed to persuade humans to believe his tricks and fall down below his level of perfection.

First, just to let you know, I do not mind a few quotes from the Bible if they are relevant to the discussion. It's the ones that are thrown about without explanation, nihil ad rem, that get to me.

To continue, I have to ask that you clarify something for me or else I'm going to be a little confused.

God> Angels>Satan>Mortals, right? And who existed first, Satan or Mankind?

[CrimsonArchangel]

God> Angels>Satan>Mortals, right? And who existed first, Satan or Mankind?

Your little... chain, heh, is correct. But before creation, it was
God>Angels (including Satan).

And to answer the other question, Satan was around first.

[xReDrUm RaMpAgEx]

i dont belive in god.... its so over-rated

[Spirited Away]

Your little... chain, heh, is correct. But before creation, it was
God>Angels (including Satan).

And to answer the other question, Satan was around first.

If that's the case, then I can tie it back in with my original thought to what you said here:

However, jealousy and hate made his perfection diminish to much lower levels, so when God created humans, yes, he made them perfect, but what seems more credible to me is that Lucifer wanted beings to be at his level, not at the great level God had created them. (A little back story before I continue. Yes, I know the delicate issue it is to quote the Bible, but... this kinda needs it. The Bible says that God created us just below the level of Angels. Lucifer had let himself fall between humans and Angels, so while still at a higher level of perfection than humans, God and his angels were still high above him.

God created humans fully knowing that Satan would draw us towards evil, why not make us as perfect as Satan (not as perfect as the Angel Lucifer) since Satan is less perfect than Angels? If we're as perfect as Satan and still less perfect than Angels, then we, on an equal level of perfection, can have the will to not be tempted by him.\

[CrimsonArchangel]

Let me try to reply to you Fae on an empty stomach.

Satan, or rather, Lucifer, has been around for perhaps as long as God has. Back then he was perfect to the point of the matter, so much so that he was considered to be second to God himself. However, jealousy and hate began to grow in his heart (how, I do not know. That is a question only God can answer because I really want to know how on the perfect universe he lived in did jealousy and hate come to be in the first place) and he began to compare himself to God and began to question his own position in heaven. All this time he is losing his level of perfection. The situation got to a point where God, to show that he was a merciful being, cast Lucifer down to earth instead of killing him.
Now comes the point in question. Lucifer was an angel, thus he was perfect (perhaps not in its entirety (sp?) but way above the human perception of perfection). When he was cast down to earth, his level of perfection diminished below those of God's angels, but it was still WAY above human perception. When God created humans, he made them perfect, but still below the perfection of his angels. In an attempt to strike back at God, Satan managed to trick humans and decreased their level of perfection to one below his own, thus having beings that could be influenced by him.

Let me clarify that this is what I know and have learned. I am not a religion student but I am trying to tell you what I know and understand. Perhaps a religion student or a minister could explain things better. I am truly trying my best.

[burnoveride]

hm. so you are trying to convince poeple to beleive in god...by using the bible? that makes no sense

it makes alot of sense, alot of ppl don't want to read the bible because it's a harsh book on truth. and ppl dont want to admit it makes them sad or mad because it gets to them the bible is a book of truth and trust, the truth about how god loves you and what he did to prove to you and how u should always learn and to know to trust god. if there's one person in your life u can trust it's god. so pick up the bible and lear something about him because no matter what you read the bible is the greatest book ever written :)

[sadolakced acid]

the only reason to belive what the bible says is if you belive in god.

therefore, if the bible convinces you, you didn't need the bible to convince you.

[innovation]

perhaps there is no point to further debating this topic.. although everyone does seem to enjoy it. i mean, most people have had too much influence already to convert to another religion (or just drop religion altogether.). besides, i believe that religions are important to society. it gives people morals, a reason not to do harmful things. if you don't mind my asking, where do atheists get their morals and values? i don't mean that scornfully; i'm just wondering.

[Spirited Away]

it makes alot of sense, alot of ppl don't want to read the bible because it's a harsh book on truth. and ppl dont want to admit it makes them sad or mad because it gets to them the bible is a book of truth and trust, the truth about how god loves you and what he did to prove to you and how u should always learn and to know to trust god. if there's one person in your life u can trust it's god. so pick up the bible and lear something about him because no matter what you read the bible is the greatest book ever written :)

Actually, the Bible only makes sense to those who think it does and to those who think it's "truth". A lot of people don't read it because they don't care to believe in Christian's "truth" because they already have their own "truth".

You may look at a rose and see red, passion, beauty and I may look at it as death, isolation, sadness... depending on my mood. So truth is questionable when it comes to things that require... belief.

Once again, for the umpteenth time, there is no (few-ask me why) truths to religion, only speculation. Now, if you have belief that it's true, that's fine, but don't push it off as facts. The belief that it's going to rain doesn't mean that it will rain.

perhaps there is no point to further debating this topic.. although everyone does seem to enjoy it. i mean, most people have had too much influence already to convert to another religion (or just drop religion altogether.). besides, i believe that religions are important to society. it gives people morals, a reason not to do harmful things. if you don't mind my asking, where do atheists get their morals and values? i don't mean that scornfully; i'm just wondering.

Religion of today is important to who needs it. Religion of yesterday was important for the building of the religion of today.

Those who do not have a religion look to morality nurtured from experience.







*sigh*, I think it's time to copy and paste again Mr. Acid.

[iloveyourname]

personally, Im not religious.. In purly my opinion I think the bible is a very good book full of stories. I do want questions answered such as, where did those people before Jesus go? they didnt know of any God really. But I just disagree with it a lot and of many things in the bible and I think to fully be against it or anything that you should read it and know about the religion. who knows..

[sadolakced acid]

well, here's my copy/paste answer i'll use anything anyone uses the bible:

god refuses to prove his existance, because without faith he is nothing. people need be belive in him because he is god, not because they can see he is real.

therefore; if the bible is correct, god is nothing because it proves his existance.

so don't use the bible to prove the existance of god.