god, part 2 Options

[Spirited Away]

Love=proof of God...true love never fails
Medicine sometimes fails

Medicine sometimes fail, God fails most of the time. After all, how many real miracles are there in the world? Pfft.

[IIO__oII]

Medicine sometimes fail, God fails most of the time. After all, how many real miracles are there in the world? Pfft.

alot, if you actaully think about it.

well, i realize that miracles happen around me all the time. but i dont understand why God does good to some things, while he lets bad happen to others, like AIDS in africa, or 3rd world countries, or the 9-11 attack. :[
GOd in his mysterious but wonderful ways...

[espionage]

well, i realize that miracles happen around me all the time. but i dont understand why God does good to some things, while he lets bad happen to others, like AIDS in africa, or 3rd world countries, or the 9-11 attack. :[

Because of the 9-11 attack, America has taken more steps to increase security. Doesn't mean that the 9-11 incident was good, but it was the trigger.

In my personal opinion (anyone can yell at me ), so-called bad things aren't caused by God, but by Satan (hence the quote above, "lets"). But while Satan tries to do bad things, God turns it all into good. So Satan's.. doing God's work, sorta.

Anyone read "The Case for Christ"? Awesome read. But very... detailed.

I'm not the smart type.

[Spirited Away]

alot, if you actaully think about it.

well, i realize that miracles happen around me all the time. but i dont understand why God does good to some things, while he lets bad happen to others, like AIDS in africa, or 3rd world countries, or the 9-11 attack. :[
GOd in his mysterious but wonderful ways...

Me, me, me, me. Why must we surround OURSELVES with the hope of miracles? Why is it that when you are happy, you call it a miracle, but when other people are miserable you call it works of the Devil? Kind of a funny way of blaming your own and others' misfortunes.

My kind of miracle doesn't start with me, because I believe in myself. A TRUE miracle would fix the wrongful happenings in the world.

I'm just fine as I am, thank you very much, but I do find that there are STILL too many murderers, rapists, tyrants, and all around evil-doers running rampant in the world. A true miracle woud mean riding the world of Evil or at the very least, a miracle would spare all the innocents from suffering every day.

Once God accomplish that, He will truly be "all powerful" and deserve the attention He so craves.

As for Satan being the master-mind behind 9-11. I would describe Osama bin Laden as satanic, but then even that title is too good for that booger.

[CrimsonArchangel]

God cannot rid the world of all evil and suffering because the world does not want to get rid of evil, at least. Suffering is a consequence of evil, but come on. Even some christians will have to admit. Being bad is fun sometimes. Some people just think that being bad all the time is better than following morals and doing the world some good.

Yes, I know, it sounds very contradicting. God is all powerful, but he cannot rid the world of all the evil in it. No one will ever truly understand how and why God works in the ways he does.
In my opinion (very debatable here), God cannot control a person's mind. Even in the movie, Bruce Almighty (rather funny, I might say), Jim Carrey couldn't get Jennifer Aniston to love him because he couldn't affect free will.
So as long as there is free will in the world, there will be evil. We (general statement) should just try to live our good lives, follow whom we think is right, go down which ever path we think is right, and know that we will have to deal with the consequences of whatever choices we make.

[waccoon]

God cannot rid the world of all evil and suffering because the world does not want to get rid of evil, at least. Suffering is a consequence of evil, but come on. Even some christians will have to admit. Being bad is fun sometimes. Some people just think that being bad all the time is better than following morals and doing the world some good.

Yes, I know, it sounds very contradicting. God is all powerful, but he cannot rid the world of all the evil in it. No one will ever truly understand how and why God works in the ways he does.
In my opinion (very debatable here), God cannot control a person's mind. Even in the movie, Bruce Almighty (rather funny, I might say), Jim Carrey couldn't get Jennifer Aniston to love him because he couldn't affect free will.
So as long as there is free will in the world, there will be evil. We (general statement) should just try to live our good lives, follow whom we think is right, go down which ever path we think is right, and know that we will have to deal with the consequences of whatever choices we make.

Free will? We have no free will. God knows our future, he knows everything about us, he knows what we're going to do. If he's perfect, he should know that we're going to the store and buying milk, no? We can't change our minds and not go to the store, because if we do so, God will be wrong, and that's impossible. Right?

God cannot rid the world of all evil and suffering because the world does not want to get rid of evil, at least. Suffering is a consequence of evil, but come on. Even some christians will have to admit. Being bad is fun sometimes. Some people just think that being bad all the time is better than following morals and doing the world some good.

^ So if God created everything in the world, every sentinent, every idea, didn't he create evil as well? He can forsee our sins, why not stop them, create us differently so that we don't sin?

[Spirited Away]

God cannot rid the world of all evil and suffering because the world does not want to get rid of evil, at least. Suffering is a consequence of evil, but come on. Even some christians will have to admit. Being bad is fun sometimes. Some people just think that being bad all the time is better than following morals and doing the world some good.

No, I'm not asking for perfection in the the world. Notice that the ONLY miracle I asked for is for Him to relieve suffering innocents, meaning children who are born with AIDs or people born in poverty. You can say that proverty is a result of Evil, I suppose, but what about famine? Surely God can allow a wheat or two to grow where they don't normally grow wheat, I can gladly except that as a miracle. Or perhaps a source of clean water for those who DESPERATELY need it to survive, a wonderful miracle! Or maybe a dying mother, who can peacefully pass on knowing that her poor children have a chance of survival.

Once again, I'm NOT asking for perfection in the world, but only for some semblence of righteous, proof even, that God IS "watching over us" as Christians claim. Loving doesn't mean watching the human race slowly destroying each other and doing nothing miraculous about it; loving doesn't mean leaving those who do not have the faith to suffer Hell just because they fully utilize the meaning of free will and do good in the world; loving will NEVER mean turning away good people for disobedince.

Yes, I know, it sounds very contradicting. God is all powerful, but he cannot rid the world of all the evil in it. No one will ever truly understand how and why God works in the ways he does.

If He cannot rid Evil, then HELP people fight against Evil by allowing more food to grow so they could have food and clean water for strength. It's very simple. How do one fight the evils of men if one do not have the strength to educate oneself on how to do it or have the physical power to defend oneself?

I don't know, maybe some people really believe that power of mind and faith is enough to fight off poverty. In some rare cases, this can happen, but even these people would need food and and clean water. I remember saying that faith is a powerful thing and that it gives hope to some, but takes away from others. Your wish for everyone to love God and have faith is almost opposite of mine, which is for everyone to first believe in himself/herself and have faith in the human mind and logic. Therefore, if your wish comes true, it will take away my wish for people to have the will to believe in their own worth.

There are several unsavory trade offs.

In my opinion (very debatable here), God cannot control a person's mind. Even in the movie, Bruce Almighty (rather funny, I might say), Jim Carrey couldn't get Jennifer Aniston to love him because he couldn't affect free will.
So as long as there is free will in the world, there will be evil. We (general statement) should just try to live our good lives, follow whom we think is right, go down which ever path we think is right, and know that we will have to deal with the consequences of whatever choices we make.

Bruce Almighty was a funny movie, but it's just a movie. If God cannot control the human mind, that's just fine with me, but He should never allow punishment to fall on people where He lacks the power. Because He doesn't have the power to show non-believers His miracles, He shouldn't blame us for not believing. And because He doesn't control our thoughts to let us know that He exists, He shoudn't blame us for our disbelief.

I'm glad that we're able to make choices and reap the knowledge of how the results of our actions turn out, but I truly find that God isn't all that powerful since He doesn't have control over how we think. I can agree with you that since He created the Worlds, He is powerful, but I will add on that He isn't ALL powerful. His title precedes Him.

[espionage]

Though he knows what we're going to be doing in the next second, he does not want any control over it. Hence the free will, plus the future-telling.

My opinion. Yell at me.

[IIO__oII]

Because of the 9-11 attack, America has taken more steps to increase security. Doesn't mean that the 9-11 incident was good, but it was the trigger.

In my personal opinion (anyone can yell at me ), so-called bad things aren't caused by God, but by Satan (hence the quote above, "lets"). But while Satan tries to do bad things, God turns it all into good. So Satan's.. doing God's work, sorta.

Anyone read "The Case for Christ"? Awesome read. But very... detailed.

I'm not the smart type.

i dont think satan actually CAUSES the bad thing to happen, but he TEMPTS human beings INTO doing something bad.. and the human beings have many weaknesses. so they fall into the temptaion and sin.

[rainnydaiis]

you can say Satan works for God.. But because Satan can't do anything without God's permission.. nothing can go out of God's plan.

thats what I'm thinking

[espionage]

you can say Satan works for God.. But because Satan can't do anything without God's permission.. nothing can go out of God's plan.

thats what I'm thinking

Hm. Reminds me of the book of Job. Satan actually "talks" to God for "permission" to torture Job. Why does God do that?

We can say one of these things, or some of these things.
1) Because God knew he wouldn't blame God.
2) Because God wanted to test Job's faith.
3) Because God wanted to show Satan the good potential of the human being.

i dont think satan actually CAUSES the bad thing to happen, but he TEMPTS human beings INTO doing something bad.. and the human beings have many weaknesses. so they fall into the temptaion and sin.

Hm... I guess you're right. But then we get into the story of why humans fell into temptation and sin. Long story short = Satan tempts them.

My idea. Yell at me!

[Spirited Away]

Though he knows what we're going to be doing in the next second, he does not want any control over it. Hence the free will, plus the future-telling.

My opinion. Yell at me.

So He allows free will, but then punishes people for using it?

What kind of logic is that?

[espionage]

Is not punishment a way of education and self-enlightment?

[Spirited Away]

Is not punishment a way of education and self-enlightment?

Sure. There's punishment and then there's abuse. Where do you draw the line? I'd say an eternity in Hell is an abusive kind of punishment.

[sikdragon]

an eternity in Hell is not an abusive kind of punishment. You choose to go there.

[gigiopolis]

Me, me, me, me. Why must we surround OURSELVES with the hope of miracles? Why is it that when you are happy, you call it a miracle, but when other people are miserable you call it works of the Devil? Kind of a funny way of blaming your own and others' misfortunes.

My kind of miracle doesn't start with me, because I believe in myself. A TRUE miracle would fix the wrongful happenings in the world.

I'm just fine as I am, thank you very much, but I do find that there are STILL too many murderers, rapists, tyrants, and all around evil-doers running rampant in the world. A true miracle woud mean riding the world of Evil or at the very least, a miracle would spare all the innocents from suffering every day.

Once God accomplish that, He will truly be "all powerful" and deserve the attention He so craves.

As for Satan being the master-mind behind 9-11. I would describe Osama bin Laden as satanic, but then even that title is too good for that booger.

Excellent. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[sikdragon]

There are no innocence.

Christianity places blame upon you and everyone who commmits sin. Satan is just an idea man.

[espionage]

Speaking of Hell (Well, I guess this is on topic, and I've been wondering for a long time), do people there ever go to heaven? For example, while in hell, for some miraculous reason, they hear of God, and believe, and return?

Is it possible?

[CrimsonArchangel]

loving doesn't mean leaving those who do not have the faith to suffer Hell just because they fully utilize the meaning of free will and do good in the world; loving will NEVER mean turning away good people for disobedince.

I guess it all goes back to my point from before.
How can you not acknowledge the prescense of something or someone, how can that someone reward you, or something like that? I guess you can prove me wrong here, and you're more than welcome to.

If He cannot rid Evil, then HELP people fight against Evil

I'm going to have to agree with you here. But, I am human, I don't know how God works and why he does things the way he does. And I will admit, some times the things he does are rather baffling and contradicting.

Your wish for everyone to love God and have faith is almost opposite of mine, which is for everyone to first believe in himself/herself and have faith in the human mind and logic.

I'm going to have to say that that really isn't my wish. Not entirely at least. I do agree with your own wish. I would love for people to stop doubting themselves and to know that they are capable of amazing things only if they believe in themselves. However, I would also like for people to know that God is there as an emotional support, as a friend, and as someone to turn to when all human strength is exhausted.

If God cannot control the human mind

since He doesn't have control over how we think

I wouldn't say that God doesn't have control over the human mind. I mentioned before that God *has* control over the human mind but he does not wish to use it because that would turn him into a tyrannical dictator and it would turn us into mindless robots.

[Spirited Away]

an eternity in Hell is not an abusive kind of punishment. You choose to go there.

I choose to go there?

Am I sane to you?

Why would a sane person "choose to go there"?

You mean because God forces me there. It so happens that we only have two choices: Heaven or Hell. I choose neither because I don't believe in it. However, God dictates that since I do not believe, I'd HAVE TO go to Hell.

You see? I don't have a choice, but to go.

There are no innocence.

Christianity places blame upon you and everyone who commmits sin. Satan is just an idea man.

How nice of you to think that way. I'm glad Christianity and God is so open and forgiving to our birth defects. I mean, being born evil is just dandy with me if I'm able to think and help fellow men, so I no harm done, imp.

But anyway, you define innocence differently than I do. According to you, babies are supposedly born sinners. That's fine with me, too. So lets explain this your way:

A child can be born sinner and continue to be sinner in little ways. However his/her positive accomplishments in life, such as making money and help the poor or just be an average Joe and still help unfortunate people, makes him/her a BETTER PERSON than when he/she was born. Those who only contribute negatively to society, well, everyone deserves a second chance.

Humans do not stay static. We grow physically, mentally and we act upon our feelings and experiences. Everyone sins is correct, however too broad. Everyone sins diffently is more specific.

But as I've learned, according to most Christians, God takes all sins to be the same. Which is blind justice. You don't send a man to death roll because he steals, and you certainly don't send a man to death roll because he believes something other than what you believe in an ethical way.

guess it all goes back to my point from before.
How can you not acknowledge the prescense of something or someone, how can that someone reward you, or something like that? I guess you can prove me wrong here, and you're more than welcome to. 

Ah, but why is God so desperate that people believe in Him? If He loves me, then wouldn't He just be content that I'm living a morally lead life? Why is it that belief in Him must be established? He is loving, right? True love is unconditional, right? So why is there a condition (belief) for Him to truly love me?

I'm going to have to agree with you here. But, I am human, I don't know how God works and why he does things the way he does. And I will admit, some times the things he does are rather baffling and contradicting.

It's the bafflement that has people doubting and even not believe Him.

I'm going to have to say that that really isn't my wish. Not entirely at least. I do agree with your own wish. I would love for people to stop doubting themselves and to know that they are capable of amazing things only if they believe in themselves. However, I would also like for people to know that God is there as an emotional support, as a friend, and as someone to turn to when all human strength is exhausted.

Human strength doesn't last and this is because we're mortal. Strength fails when we're old and gray and we die. Our wills leave us when we quit and our strength to fight will follow. There are times when people will quit or not fight on, this is also a very human thing to do, not because we're all quitters, but because most of us KNOW when to quit and when to fight on. There are instances though, that strength will fail first and then the will after it.

Martyrs know when to quit and when to fight on. I usually think of Jesus, assuming that He did exist, as a martyr. He knew His purpose and He knew to fight on. Humans, when fighting for their faith, do the same. So why is it, that Jesus fights for His faith to die for sins, and knows the pains of it, that He forces others to die for their faiths so that their children can know and maybe follow the faiths of their ancestors?

Yes, I've heard that God acts as a mental supporting to beam to many. To cases where breaking one's will is concerned (mental torture which you can find in abusive homes), God can be a great companion. However, with the cases that requires strength (food and water to have the physical stamina to endure hardships), God doesn't seem to do much good there.

I wouldn't say that God doesn't have control over the human mind. I mentioned before that God *has* control over the human mind but he does not wish to use it because that would turn him into a tyrannical dictator and it would turn us into mindless robots.

Not really. Control over human minds doesn't mean that we'd be robots if He allows us to think as we like, but He only needs to make us keep the thought that He is the Savior in our minds. Or if He doesn't want to do that, He can simply send valid, unquestionable proofs so that we will know of His existence.

Excellent. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks for the support!

[sikdragon]

babies are born innocent but choose to sin because humans are imperfect.

you choose to go to hell. Sane people choose to go there because they make their life more important than God, not because they don't believe. EVERYONE BELIEVES IN HEAVEN, HELL, AND IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. People just choose to deny it.

[IIO__oII]

My idea. Yell at me!

haha no yelling in here. we're just stating our ideas and beliefs.

Free will? We have no free will. God knows our future, he knows everything about us, he knows what we're going to do. If he's perfect, he should know that we're going to the store and buying milk, no? We can't change our minds and not go to the store, because if we do so, God will be wrong, and that's impossible. Right?

i think we all have differnt ideas on this, but what i think is that God knows that we're going to change our minds and not buy the milk. he knows what our changes that we make suddenly is,,,

[princess2113]

Speaking of Hell (Well, I guess this is on topic, and I've been wondering for a long time), do people there ever go to heaven? For example, while in hell, for some miraculous reason, they hear of God, and believe, and return?

Is it possible?

I think that once ur there ur there b/c u must have faith in Jesus to go to Heaven. faith is believing W/O seeing, once ur in hell u know Jesus is real b/c u saw Him on Judgement Day...so its not the same as having faith and believing what He did b4 u actually SEE Him...does that make any sense?

[IIO__oII]

I think that once ur there ur there b/c u must have faith in Jesus to go to Heaven. faith is believing W/O seeing, once ur in hell u know Jesus is real b/c u saw Him on Judgement Day...so its not the same as having faith and believing what He did b4 u actually SEE Him...does that make any sense?

mmhmm. you cant go into heaven when youre i hell cause... its too late! you had your time on earth to decide. :[

because even the demons hear the name of God, and they shudder.

[princess2113]

mmhmm. you cant go into heaven when youre i hell cause... its too late! you had your time on earth to decide. :[

because even the demons hear the name of God, and they shudder.

yeahhh thats what i was trying to say