the bible...fairytales? Options

[cori-catastrophe]

earlier today, i was debating with another cber about the bible. she seemed to believe that jesus walked the earth, but she doesn't believe in god, nor any of the historical stories in the bible, such as the flood that god sent to rid the world of all evil.
i believe in god, as well as the stories in the bible.
i just think that over the many years people have made the stories into fairytales. perhaps they overdid it on the describing details by using dramatic hyperboles. people are the ones that leave us wondering about our faith, not god.
i believe that they all happened the original way that god planned them, but there isn't very much proof anymore because of people. although, god could also be testing our faithfulnes toward him being in control. what do you think?

[Simba]

There's definitely at least some truth in the Bible. How accurate and reliable it is? I can't quite say.

[cori-catastrophe]

there's obviously some truth in it, but which parts?

[Simba]

there's obviously some truth in it, but which parts?

Some of the "essentials" of Christianity. Say, God being the Supreme Being, Jesus being God incarnated, and so on.

Details and events such as the flood and all that aren't exactly necessary, however.

How are we supposed to know for sure?

One thing when it comes to the Bible.

[cori-catastrophe]

Some of the "essentials" of Christianity. Say, God being the Supreme Being, Jesus being God incarnated, and so on.

Details and events such as the flood and all that aren't exactly necessary, however.
One thing when it comes to the Bible.

but you see, i'm lost behind her reasoning. she said that she believed that jesus walked the earth. but she doesn't believe in god or the stories in the bible. i'm lost as to how that can be. i thought that jesus was god in human form. so how could she believe that jesus was real but god wasn't. isn't that trinity? i asked her about her reasoning but at that point it just seemed that she wanted to tell me that all christians were alike. from then on, she proceeded to tell me how closed-minded i was because i told her that her belifs was warped because she couldn't back up her ridiculous argument and she kept saying the same comment over and over and trying to change the subject. that is, after she told me that my reasoning for actually beliving in god and having a religion at all was "f**ked up". gah. i dislike trends.

[Simba]

Sounds like denial if she's not backing her reasoning up.

Anyhow, some people believe that Jesus was an actual person, sure, but wasn't at all an incarnate of God (though some say, maybe a prophet, or maybe no one special at all).

[bitesnkisses]

THere are truths in the bible, like that Jesus was the son of God and that he rose from the dead, but not all of it is true. After all the bible was written by man, not God or Jesus himself.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

There's some factual truths involving historical characters and events, but we're talking about general knowledge such as recognizing the existence of King Solomon, or the division of the Jewish tribes. Most probably due to the time in which the texts the bible is based upon were written.

The rest is cannon fodder for moderate skepticism and positive science.

[Sabastian]

Some of the prophecies made in the Bible have actually happend and have been proved that they have happend. I dont exactly remember, but there was a prophecy of a wall falling (back in biblical times) and it has been proven that the prophecy was actually made before the wall actually coming down. Because that prophecy was written in the dead sea scrolls and then some scientists used science to find out when the scrolls have been written; which turned out to be before the falling of this "wall". If anybody would like to go and actually research anything about this, correct me if i'm wrong. I'm just remembering things that I learned from church.

But think about it.. Most people that dont believe in a God or a Supreme being, if you listen to what they have to say most of it sounds more like excuses than explanations.

ALSO.. in the book of Revelations alot of the stuff happening now adds up to what It predicts. Like it saying that when the anti-christ actually comes to power there will be a way for him to massly produce his teachings. What better time than now? I mean with the internet and televisions, satelite radio o.o.

Just keep your faith in God. I think satan purposely gets those kinds of people to manipulate Christians into thinking that God isnt real.

[cori-catastrophe]

THere are truths in the bible, like that Jesus was the son of God and that he rose from the dead, but not all of it is true. After all the bible was written by man, not God or Jesus himself.

the bible was written by man, but god lead them and told themwhat to actually put in it. if the facts that the authors wrote weren't true, wouldn't he have had someone else do it?

[*mishyerr*]

I know many people who believe that Jesus lived. Isn't that a fact? But they also believe that Jesus' existence doesn't prove anything he claimed to be. Sure, the Bible has historical events, but to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible is faith.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

Just keep your faith in God. I think satan purposely gets those kinds of people to manipulate Christians into thinking that God isnt real.

Wowee Zowee. Glad to be on Satan's side (not that I was aware I had picked one until you posted anyway).

[cori-catastrophe]

I know many people who believe that Jesus lived. Isn't that a fact? But they also believe that Jesus' existence doesn't prove anything he claimed to be. Sure, the Bible has historical events, but to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible is faith.

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

[*mishyerr*]

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Um, I'm not sure. I don't know much about Judaism. I meant that some people that are athiest, agnostic, etc, believe that Jesus was, in fact, a man on earth, just like George Washington, who existed.

[Mulder]

Jewish people believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. The foundation of Judiasm is "the lord our god is one," so really, how could he be in the eyes of Jews? Many Jews (non-Orthodox) believe that the stories in the bible are supposed to be valued for their message, and not to be taken as fact. They're just stories that teach lessons.

[kimmytree]

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Yeah, they just believe in the Old Testament. They believe a messiah will eventually come, but they don't believe it was Jesus, mostly because he changed old Jewish law with the writtings in the New Testament. They dont believe God's law EVER changes.

And aside from that, they believe worshiping Jesus is Paganism (the belief/worship in more than one God). As far as I know, whenever the messiah does actually come, they dont believe he should be worshiped and placed as high as God (which in a sense is what Christianity does).

Not all Jews believe that about him - there's some who believe he never even existed. It just varies within the different "denominations", or sects.

[misoshiru]

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

[Simba]

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

I haven't read the article, but I know there's a fine line between scientists finding no evidence that something ever happened and finding evidence against something proving that something could have never happened.

[misoshiru]

^ Actually, I found it on the International Herald Tribune. But here's the link if you want to read it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/afr...b-0403moses.php

[cori-catastrophe]

Um, I'm not sure. I don't know much about Judaism. I meant that some people that are athiest, agnostic, etc, believe that Jesus was, in fact, a man on earth, just like George Washington, who existed.

i know. i really question some athiest and agnostic people's beliefs though because they believe that jesus isn't real but they believe people like george washington are. however, they back up their arguments by saying how are they supposed to believe in someone they've never met. if i'm not mistaken, i don't think any of them have met george washington either. so aren't they contradicting themselves a bit in saying that?

Jewish people believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. The foundation of Judiasm is "the lord our god is one," so really, how could he be in the eyes of Jews? Many Jews (non-Orthodox) believe that the stories in the bible are supposed to be valued for their message, and not to be taken as fact. They're just stories that teach lessons.

so if secular jews believe that what do orthodox jews believe?
like mish, i'm not educated on judaism very much.
in christian's eyes, secular jews are halfway correct. the stories in the bible do, in fact, teach lessons. they were written to teach lessons, but they were also written to tell his about history and miracles that jesus performed in the past so that christians wouldn't has to solely believe with only faith.

QUOTE(hazardous @ Apr 17 2007, 8:54 PM)

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Yeah, they just believe in the Old Testament. They believe a messiah will eventually come, but they don't believe it was Jesus, mostly because he changed old Jewish law with the writtings in the New Testament. They dont believe God's law EVER changes.

And aside from that, they believe worshiping Jesus is Paganism (the belief/worship in more than one God). As far as I know, whenever the messiah does actually come, they dont believe he should be worshiped and placed as high as God (which in a sense is what Christianity does).

Not all Jews believe that about him - there's some who believe he never even existed. It just varies within the different "denominations", or sects.

i actually think that judaism is alot like christianity in some ways. in fact, it seems very reasonable.
so jews don't believe in trinity?
and as far as the new testament goes, jesus didn't change it, he updated it.

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

i shall read the link you posted and comment later.
edit:i read the article link that you posted. the archaeologist didn't have very many facts to back up his findings, just his opinions.

[kimmytree]

^ Just look Judaism up on Wikipedia.

A person CANT believe in the Trinity unless they at least believe in Jesus. Jews dont believe in him, so how can they believe in the Trinity? lol.

In a sense he kinda did change it. Before, in the Old Testament, Jews were promised eternal life just for being Jewish. But then with the New Testament, it says you have to believe in Jesus (and do other things, depending on the denomination). So now, instead of a Jew automatically being saved, they have to do all this other crap that they dont believe in to begin with. And if they dont, they're damned. So yeah, God's law/promise changed for them.

[Mulder]

so if secular jews believe that what do orthodox jews believe?
like mish, i'm not educated on judaism very much.
in christian's eyes, secular jews are halfway correct. the stories in the bible do, in fact, teach lessons. they were written to teach lessons, but they were also written to tell his about history and miracles that jesus performed in the past so that christians wouldn't has to solely believe with only faith.

now you're including the New Testament. Jews don't believe in the New Testament at all, so if you're going to make a comment about Judiasm and the Bible, you should be referring strictly to the Old Testament.
Non-orthodox jews are not Secular. There are many sects of Judiasm, but the main ones are: Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Hassidic. Reform and Conservative Jews are less observant than Orthodox Jews. The religion doesn't change.

so jews don't believe in trinity?
and as far as the new testament goes, jesus didn't change it, he updated it.

Of course not.
And Jesus had nothing to do with the New Testament. Saul, who later changed his name to Paul, decided to tell the "history" of Jesus.

[misoshiru]

i know. i really question some athiest and agnostic people's beliefs though because they believe that jesus isn't real but they believe people like george washington are. however, they back up their arguments by saying how are they supposed to believe in someone they've never met. if i'm not mistaken, i don't think any of them have met george washington either. so aren't they contradicting themselves a bit in saying that?

Other than the Bible, where else has Jesus appeared in, in terms of proof of his existence?

[cori-catastrophe]

^ Just look Judaism up on Wikipedia.

A person CANT believe in the Trinity unless they at least believe in Jesus. Jews dont believe in him, so how can they believe in the Trinity? lol.

In a sense he kinda did change it. Before, in the Old Testament, Jews were promised eternal life just for being Jewish. But then with the New Testament, it says you have to believe in Jesus (and do other things, depending on the denomination). So now, instead of a Jew automatically being saved, they have to do all this other crap that they dont believe in to begin with. And if they dont, they're damned. So yeah, God's law/promise changed for them.

so in the old testament, jews were automatically saved and promised eternal life? that doesn't make much sence. jesus was jewish though, correct?
so they didn't believe that he was the messiah so he didn't have the power to change the law?

now you're including the New Testament. Jews don't believe in the New Testament at all, so if you're going to make a comment about Judiasm and the Bible, you should be referring strictly to the Old Testament.
Non-orthodox jews are not Secular. There are many sects of Judiasm, but the main ones are: Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Hassidic. Reform and Conservative Jews are less observant than Orthodox Jews. The religion doesn't change.

there are no jews who believe in the new testament, even just believing them to be stories?
secular jews aren't included in the old testament? i didn't know that.

Other than the Bible, where else has Jesus appeared in, in terms of proof of his existence?

he is all through history, as well as all the historical figures that people believe in.

[Mulder]

there are no jews who believe in the new testament, even just believing them to be stories?

No. The Old Testament is the Jew's covenant with God. The New Testament came after Christianity, and has nothing to do with Judiasm, except that it spawned from Judiasm.

secular jews aren't included in the old testament? i didn't know that.

I have no idea what you mean.
The sects I listed are recent. They formally started in the 20th century. The Old Testament was written thousands of years before jesus was even born, so I really don't understand what you mean.