The Problem of Free Will, A Theological Problem. Options

[NoSex]

Alright, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the theological Problem of Free Will. So, under common christian theolgy, God is described as being all-knowing (omniscient) and all powerful (omnipotent). Men are also described as having free will. This is at the heart of the reality of theological fatalism. Solving this issue is vital to christian theology as it becomes an inherent contradiction as well as threatening to the christian conception of salvation and damnation.

I hold that God's infallible foreknowledge makes impossible man's free will. If god knows the future, how can we choose our own path?

Discuss.

[Kontroll]

So, explain it to me. I'm dumb and need everything spelled out for me. Please, indulge me.

[*I Viddy Horrorshow*]

Or, indulge yourself, and READ.

There is supposedly a rule against repeating things over and over, so I'll stick to it.

[sweetangel2128]

Heath, 1st of all, stop double posting, this isn't the first time I've had to mention this to you.

Secondly, since you have failed to grasp the VERY simple explanation that has been offered 980425761345 times in this thread, whether because you don't want to understand it, or because you lack comprehension, I suggest merely that you read the thread again. Because every single little obejection you have pointed out has already been addressed and redressed.

Just... read. It really is very, very simple.

First of all, sorry for double posting...

Second of all, I have read it and I do comprehend it and it still does NOT make any sense at all. I have read it to other people that also agree with me. In fact, one of my friends who is a Christian said this is the first time she's ever seen ANYONE think that we don't have free will, even from a non-Christian. And well my boyfriend thinks it's rediculous and he's non-Christian, has NO RELIGION at all and disagrees with you.

How in the world do you get foreknowledge (knowing all) and free will. They are not even connected. Why do I keep asking you guys this because you are making no sense and your not even explaining or answerinig my Question...I have read your last message showing me examples but it doesn't show me why a God cannot have foreknowledge/be all knowing and also give us free will. Having free will, having free choices and something knowing what your actions will be IS NOT stopping you from having free will...I have given you examples of why I think this, maybe you need to re-read what I'm trying to say.

Or, indulge yourself, and READ.

There is supposedly a rule against repeating things over and over, so I'll stick to it.

A rule? Hun, this is a debate forum and I disagree with what you guys are saying so umm I'm debating about it because it makes absolutely no sense at all.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

I still don't get how foreknowledge precludes our ability to choose from a vast array of choices.

If there is already existent knowledge (held by God, in this case) of our future actions, any future pick you take from a vast array of choices could be answered as true or false in the present time.

You won't really choose anything in the future but rather will have the illusion of doing so, since God's omniscience has already determined all the decisions you may make during your life.

[sweetangel2128]

If there is already existent knowledge (held by God, in this case) of our future actions, any future pick you take from a vast array of choices could be answered as true or false in the present time.

You won't really choose anything in the future but rather will have the illusion of doing so, since God's omniscience has already determined all the decisions you may make during your life.

His foreknowledge still does not keep us from having free will. Just like the Bible says he wants none to perish...if one person is going in the direction of the Devil why would God want him to go there? Therefore why would that be God's choice? That just makes no sense. Yes, God has foreknowledge of the future because he knows that that will be your decision but he still gave us free will to make that choice, he just knows your decision.

[*I Viddy Horrorshow*]

^ Yes. HE KNOWS YOUR DECISION.

HE CANNOT BE WRONG.

Therefore, you have no choice but to TAKE that decision.

What remains is not free-will, it is the ILLUSION of free-will.

I am honestly making small noises of distress at the fact that you can't see how straightforward that is. It is mind-boggling.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

His foreknowledge still does not keep us from having free will. Just like the Bible says he wants none to perish...if one person is going in the direction of the Devil why would God want him to go there? Therefore why would that be God's choice? That just makes no sense. Yes, God has foreknowledge of the future because he knows that that will be your decision but he still gave us free will to make that choice, he just knows your decision.

We're not talking about God directly interacting with us like a puppeteer would.

The thing is, God has knowledge of everything that has happened, is happening and will ever happen. If everything you do is already known you're not making much of a free choice, since your freedom to choose is limited by God's omniscient and timeless knowledge. You're just acting according to God's cognition, not according to a personal, independent and spontaneous decision of your own.

It's not a direct action from the big G what's limiting your free will, don't be confused. It's just that all of our choices are subject to God's knowledge; and that limits our freedom.

[sweetangel2128]

^ Yes. HE KNOWS YOUR DECISION.

HE CANNOT BE WRONG.

Therefore, you have no choice but to TAKE that decision.

What remains is not free-will, it is the ILLUSION of free-will.

I am honestly making small noises of distress at the fact that you can't see how straightforward that is. It is mind-boggling.

You still don't make sense to me. I'm sorry if I'm causing you to have noises of distress but you just make no sense at all on this subject. I mean yes, he has knowledge and we do have free will. But I just don't understand how in the world him knowing our decisions stops us from making our own decisions. As I said before God is like a pyshic, a psychic doesn't make the choices for you but they tell you how your going to react or what your going to do in the far or near future...you are making your own decision but that person is seeing into the future to see what you will do...the same goes for God, he knows what you'll do but you have free will still cause he's not stopping you from having that free will only seeing what the choice will be. He's basically saying this - "Hmmm...I wonder what this person is going to do 2 years down the road..let me see..."

We're not talking about God directly interacting with us like a puppeteer would.

The thing is, God has knowledge of everything that has happened, is happening and will ever happen. If everything you do is already known you're not making much of a free choice, since your freedom to choose is limited by God's omniscient and timeless knowledge. You're just acting according to God's cognition, not according to a personal, independent and spontaneous decision of your own.

It's not a direct action from the big G what's limiting your free will, don't be confused. It's just that all of our choices are subject to God's knowledge; and that limits our freedom.

That still doesn't make any sense, I am using my view of what God is but also my personal opinion and I have read over the argument so many times trying to understand what you guys mean but NONE of it makes sense. It still does not limit your freedom because you are still making your own choice God is just looking into the future to see what that decision is. Yes, he does know everything but like I said a million times, him knowing things doesn't mean he's controlling everything.

[Simba]

Heath21, let's say John went to a psychic and asked him what was going to happen in the future. The psychic looked into the future and saw John going to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM.

However, John really didn't feel like going to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM, and regardless of what the psychic told John, John chose not to go to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM, because, regardless of what the psychic had told him, John had the ability to choose not to.

John did not go to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM at all. The psychic was wrong.



Now, don't even tell me your opinion on that situation, just tell me if the story made sense to you or not.

[NoSex]

Yes, that's what having options are, free will and we do have that. So therefore, we have free will :)

So, we need options.
If we can't choose to do something, is it an option?

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

That still doesn't make any sense, I am using my view of what God is but also my personal opinion and I have read over the argument so many times trying to understand what you guys mean but NONE of it makes sense. It still does not limit your freedom because you are still making your own choice God is just looking into the future to see what that decision is. Yes, he does know everything but like I said a million times, him knowing things doesn't mean he's controlling everything.

Nono, we aren't talking about a divinity actively controlling our actions. We are saying that we can't act in disagreement to what God knows. Those are two radically different premises.

When we say our decisions are determined by God's absolute knowledge, we do not mean our actions are being directly commanded by a divinity. What we mean is that we can't act in contradiction to God's knowledge, thus we have no real freedom.

So yes, you make your own choices. You then do the action. But that choice and the following action can't be done in disagreement to what's already been defined by God's universal cognition; you can't willingly act in disregard to his omniscience.

Ergo, there's no literal free will, but only the illusion of such.

[Ington]

Free will is simply an illusion. It is in our genes, in our personalities, where our responses are programmed. We believe we have a free will, but under certain circumstances, we can only pick one decision, the decision our personalities are most compatible with.

[sweetangel2128]

Heath21, let's say John went to a psychic and asked him what was going to happen in the future. The psychic looked into the future and saw John going to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM.

However, John really didn't feel like going to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM, and regardless of what the psychic told John, John chose not to go to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM, because, regardless of what the psychic had told him, John had the ability to choose not to.

John did not go to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM at all. The psychic was wrong.
Now, don't even tell me your opinion on that situation, just tell me if the story made sense to you or not.

Ok I am not going to tell you my opinion like you asked but yes I did understand your thoughts on that but just to let you know it doesn't mean I agree what you are trying to say but yes I do understand it.

So, we need options.
If we can't choose to do something, is it an option?

If we can't choose to do something and are forced into a decision then no it isn't an option and it isn't free will. But we do have choices and we do have a decision to make on our own therefore it's free will.

Nono, we aren't talking about a divinity actively controlling our actions. We are saying that we can't act in disagreement to what God knows. Those are two radically different premises.

When we say our decisions are determined by God's absolute knowledge, we do not mean our actions are being directly commanded by a divinity. What we mean is that we can't act in contradiction to God's knowledge, thus we have no real freedom.

So yes, you make your own choices. You then do the action. But that choice and the following action can't be done in disagreement to what's already been defined by God's universal cognition; you can't willingly act in disregard to his omniscience.

Ergo, there's no literal free will, but only the illusion of such.

I get what your trying to say but it still isn't possible because we do have free will.

Free will is simply an illusion. It is in our genes, in our personalities, where our responses are programmed. We believe we have a free will, but under certain circumstances, we can only pick one decision, the decision our personalities are most compatible with.

I agree we don't have free will in a lot of things such as when we'll die but we do have free will given by God in a lot of circumstances which makes it free will. Such as who to follow...God or Satan. Or free will in the sense we choose our own paths. God has plan for all of us but it's our decision if we want to take his plan or follow our own.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

I get what your trying to say but it still isn't possible because we do have free will.

How do we have the freedom to act in disagreement to God's absolute knowledge, then?

[sweetangel2128]

How do we have the freedom to act in disagreement to God's absolute knowledge, then?

It isn't disagreement. As I said before God is like a psychic, he gives us free will to make choices but he knows what our choices will be, that is still free will but he can see it happening because he is all knowing. Knowing something doesn't stop you from having free will it only means it can be seen.

[Simba]

Ok I am not going to tell you my opinion like you asked but yes I did understand your thoughts on that but just to let you know it doesn't mean I agree what you are trying to say but yes I do understand it.

Eh, you shouldn't have had much of an opinion on it, I was only telling a story.

Anyway, read that story again, but replace "the psychic" with "God." And please try to read and understand the story with as least bias as you can; read as if that it were actually possible. I'll even replace everything for you:

Heath21, let's say John went to God and asked Him what was going to happen in the future. God looked into the future and saw John going to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM.

However, John really didn't feel like going to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM, and regardless of what God told John, John chose not to go to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM, because, regardless of what God had told him, John had the ability to choose not to.

John did not go to the airport on March 14, 2007 at 7:30 AM at all. God was wrong.

Again, don't tell me your opinion on the story, I just want to know if you can take that in.

[sweetangel2128]

Eh, you shouldn't have had much of an opinion on it, I was only telling a story.

Anyway, read that story again, but replace "the psychic" with "God." And please try to read and understand the story with as least bias as you can; read as if that it were actually possible. I'll even replace everything for you:
Again, don't tell me your opinion on the story, I just want to know if you can take that in.

I see what your saying cause God is never wrong. But still, God doesn't tell us what to do or what path to take and force us to take that path, as I said before it's free will. So therefore your story is false because God doesn't force you to do anything, he shows you want path you should take but he leaves it up to you if you want to trust him and take that path or take a different one which is in fact still "FREE WILL". Sorry, had to give my opinion. I don't think it's fare of you to tell me a story and ask me if I take it in without giving my opinion because it would look like I'm agreeing with you and I don't.

[Simba]

I see what your saying cause God is never wrong. But still, God doesn't tell us what to do or what path to take and force us to take that path, as I said before it's free will. So therefore your story is false because God doesn't force you to do anything, he shows you want path you should take but he leaves it up to you if you want to trust him and take that path or take a different one which is in fact still "FREE WILL". Sorry, had to give my opinion. I don't think it's fare of you to tell me a story and ask me if I take it in without giving my opinion because it would look like I'm agreeing with you and I don't.

Well, that's ok, as long as you somewhat understood the story.

How exactly is my story false? God (in the story) didn't force "John" to do anything either; John still had the freewill to not go to the airport on March 14, 7:30 AM.

Ok, so God can suggest a path that you should take now, huh. Even so, the fact that he saw that you would do "this" in the future, but you still had the freewill to not do "this" and instead did "that," you would be proving God's omniscience wrong.

It seems that you are taking your God is like a psychic simile almost literally, because the God that is described in the Bible is not at all equivalent to a psychic. God =/= Psychics. God is described to be omniscient with timeless knowledge, not actually doing what God said you would do in the future would be proving him wrong, and at the same time proving his omniscience wrong.

Any other psychic could tell you that you would be doing in the something in the future and if you wanted to disprove them just for kicks and did something else, you can prove them wrong, as psychics are not all knowing. However, you can not do this with someone who is supposed to be all knowing, id est, God.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

It isn't disagreement. As I said before God is like a psychic, he gives us free will to make choices but he knows what our choices will be, that is still free will but he can see it happening because he is all knowing. Knowing something doesn't stop you from having free will it only means it can be seen.

So you don't have the freedom to act outside of God's knowledge, then, but you're free to act according to his omniscient perception?

[sweetangel2128]

Well, that's ok, as long as you somewhat understood the story.

How exactly is my story false? God (in the story) didn't force "John" to do anything either; John still had the freewill to not go to the airport on March 14, 7:30 AM.

Ok, so God can suggest a path that you should take now, huh. Even so, the fact that he saw that you would do "this" in the future, but you still had the freewill to not do "this" and instead did "that," you would be proving God's omniscience wrong.

It seems that you are taking your God is like a psychic simile almost literally, because the God that is described in the Bible is not at all equivalent to a psychic. God =/= Psychics. God is described to be omniscient with timeless knowledge, not actually doing what God said you would do in the future would be proving him wrong, and at the same time proving his omniscience wrong.

Any other psychic could tell you that you would be doing in the something in the future and if you wanted to disprove them just for kicks and did something else, you can prove them wrong, as psychics are not all knowing. However, you can not do this with someone who is supposed to be all knowing, id est, God.

First of all, I am not comparing God to a Psychic I am only using the Psychic as an example to get you to understand what I'm saying about God being all knowing and giving us free will.

Like I said before over & over again...it is FREE WILL still. Let me try and explain this more to you on what I'm trying to say to you....

God knows all, everything, past present and future. Ok lets say he knows that I'm going to fall away from him because everyone falls short of God's glory as he says because he created us and knows us inside & out...ok yes he knows that, but lets say we don't fall short but he saw in the future that we did...we did the opposite when we were almost about to fall short we grabbed oursleves and pulled ourselves back from falling away. Basically what I'm trying to say is that God can see what were gonna do, but if we choose something else, he still sees us also doing that so we'd really not be proving him wrong...since he knows all, even if you make one decision and change that decision.

Well, the Bible also says he gives free will. So, it's kinda funny your going off of what the Bible says about him not being psychic.

[Simba]

Oh, I very well understand your concept of God and freewill; the point of telling you that story was to see if you could get a grip on what the people who-say-God-cannot-be-omniscient-and-give-us-freewill-at-the-same-time's concept is.

The thing is, God's knowledge is supposed to be timeless; time is not an obstacle in His vision, something that may be hard for any other human to put into perspective.

Following your scenario, even if God "knew" that you would fall short of His glory, and you actually didn't by "pulling yourself back up," you would still be proving Him wrong, regardless of it being for the better. And if God is wrong, God cannot be omniscient.

[*I Viddy Horrorshow*]

I see what your saying cause God is never wrong. But still, God doesn't tell us what to do or what path to take and force us to take that path, as I said before it's free will. So therefore your story is false because God doesn't force you to do anything, he shows you want path you should take but he leaves it up to you if you want to trust him and take that path or take a different one which is in fact still "FREE WILL". Sorry, had to give my opinion. I don't think it's fare of you to tell me a story and ask me if I take it in without giving my opinion because it would look like I'm agreeing with you and I don't.

No. It is the ILLUSION of Free Will. You're being stubborn in the face of really very simple logic.

[sweetangel2128]

Oh, I very well understand your concept of God and freewill; the point of telling you that story was to see if you could get a grip on what the people who-say-God-cannot-be-omniscient-and-give-us-freewill-at-the-same-time's concept is.

The thing is, God's knowledge is supposed to be timeless; time is not an obstacle in His vision, something that may be hard for any other human to put into perspective.

Following your scenario, even if God "knew" that you would fall short of His glory, and you actually didn't by "pulling yourself back up," you would still be proving Him wrong, regardless of it being for the better. And if God is wrong, God cannot be omniscient.

How am I proving him wrong? That just doesn't make any sense.

No. It is the ILLUSION of Free Will. You're being stubborn in the face of really very simple logic.

So, because I disagree with what your saying and the fact it makes no sense at all makes me stubborn? If that's the case, a lot of people are being stubborn cause I know a lot of people that would back me up on this.

[Simba]

No. It is the ILLUSION of Free Will. You're being stubborn in the face of really very simple logic.

Well, shoot. I'm just going to have to cosign, James.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

So therefore your story is false because God doesn't force you to do anything,

Nono.

We are saying God's knowledge does limit our actions, not that God itself makes us do one thing or another.

he shows you want path you should take

Again, no.

There's no divine direct interaction in here. God shows you nothing; he just sits there and knows everything about everything.

but he leaves it up to you if you want to trust him and take that path or take a different one which is in fact still "FREE WILL".

God knows what you will choose beforehand, and he is always right. Therefore you will do what he already knew you would do. Your freedom is ultimately limited by what God knows, NOT by what God commands you to do.

To put it differently:

You stand in front of two paths. God knows you will take the path to the left, for his knowledge is absolute. He knows everything and is always correct.

If you take the path to the left, are you truly free or are you in the end limited by God's omniscience?

If you take the path to the right, are you truly free or is God an imbecile?