The Problem of Free Will, A Theological Problem. Options

[NoSex]

Alright, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the theological Problem of Free Will. So, under common christian theolgy, God is described as being all-knowing (omniscient) and all powerful (omnipotent). Men are also described as having free will. This is at the heart of the reality of theological fatalism. Solving this issue is vital to christian theology as it becomes an inherent contradiction as well as threatening to the christian conception of salvation and damnation.

I hold that God's infallible foreknowledge makes impossible man's free will. If god knows the future, how can we choose our own path?

Discuss.

[*kryogenix*]

Changing could to would seems like something insignificant, but it's a sneaky way of wording it to get the proof to work. Of course man could have done otherwise. The option is still there, he just won't take it and God knows this. Perfect foreknowledge does not influence the decision at all.

[NoSex]

Changing could to would seems like something insignificant, but it's a sneaky way of wording it to get the proof to work. Of course man could have done otherwise. The option is still there, he just won't take it and God knows this. Perfect foreknowledge does not influence the decision at all.

God can only know one thing.
Man is supposed to have multiple options.
If God knows this "one thing" before man is able to choose, man has no option.


There is no sneaking. It's a rather analytical proof.
What you don't seem to realize is that God's foreknowledge predates man's choice. Because of this, man must conform to the knowledge of God. He could not do anything other than what God knows - Man could not do otherwise. If man were to be able to do otherwise that would give man the ability to make God wrong. If man could choose any other possible outcome, other than what God knew, man would have the ability to make god imperfect. Since man could never have this ability, as God can never be made to be wrong, man can not have free will.

[oXMuhNirvanaXo]

God can only know one thing.
Man is supposed to have multiple options.
If God knows this "one thing" before man is able to choose, man has no option.
There is no sneaking. It's a rather analytical proof.
What you don't seem to realize is that God's foreknowledge predates man's choice. Because of this, man must conform to the knowledge of God. He could not do anything other than what God knows - Man could not do otherwise. If man were to be able to do otherwise that would give man the ability to make God wrong. If man could choose any other possible outcome, other than what God knew, man would have the ability to make god imperfect. Since man could never have this ability, as God can never be made to be wrong, man can not have free will.

This all comes back to how God dose not want us to live on this Earth. Earth is the closest thing to hell in my mind. This is pretty much is waiting zone for everyone. We are all going to die and go to heaven or hell. What we do here depends on where we go. God know what is going to happen to us but we don't. We don't have the ablity to have the same power as he dose. All we can do is sit back and let him have our lives and let him lead us the way we knows we are going to go. While we do this we must follow the book that he has for us.. Last time I checked it was still called the Bible.

[Mikhayl Wilson]

Hmmm.... But i thought that the christian logic (at least what i was taught) was that if God controlled our every move... We would hate him... and not praise or glorify him on our own. He is also all knowing .. and controls everything... Doesn't that somehow contradict...

[Kontroll]

This all comes back to how God dose not want us to live on this Earth. Earth is the closest thing to hell in my mind. This is pretty much is waiting zone for everyone. We are all going to die and go to heaven or hell. What we do here depends on where we go. God know what is going to happen to us but we don't. We don't have the ablity to have the same power as he dose. All we can do is sit back and let him have our lives and let him lead us the way we knows we are going to go. While we do this we must follow the book that he has for us.. Last time I checked it was still called the Bible.

What?! God gave us this earth. If you read revelations it says that the earth will be restored and we'll be living here for like 1000 years. How is this place anything close to Hell?

What's to stop God from having anything on this earth be in Heaven? For all we know there could be endless jungles, or giant rose gardens.

[Simba]

Exactly, God gave us free will so that we could live our own lives the way we want to. We know we do wrong sometimes but this is also why He brought Jesus to the world to fogive us for all our sins. This is why when we know we have done somthing wrong we go to Jesus and ask Him to for give us for all our sins.

So you go and ask forgiveness for your sins, and just go out sinning again? I highly doubt that that's what God wanted ending up happening.

God could have just as easily not given us freewill and have us all obey Him and be His devotees. He has given us the freewill, however, because He finds it more enjoyable that we be his devotees by choice, not because we were forced to.

[Stuckie]

Do the people that say free will contradicts God's foreknowledge ever actually study the Bible? Or do you just base these opinions on other resources?

[NoSex]

Do the people that say free will contradicts God's foreknowledge ever actually study the Bible? Or do you just base these opinions on other resources?

What are you talking about?
The Bible is, at this point, rather irrelevant.
We're disproving the concept of an omniscient God and the ability of free will coexisting.
All we need are the definitions of omniscient and free will.
Not a problem.
But, I'm curious, how do you believe the Bible would be of any assistance in this conversation given the premise?

[Kontroll]

What are you talking about?
The Bible is, at this point, rather irrelevant.
We're disproving the concept of an omniscient God and the ability of free will coexisting.
All we need are the definitions of omniscient and free will.
Not a problem.
But, I'm curious, how do you believe the Bible would be of any assistance in this conversation given the premise?

Because it's a source. It speaks of God, it speaks of omniscience, and free will.

[Stuckie]

What are you talking about?
The Bible is, at this point, rather irrelevant.
We're disproving the concept of an omniscient God and the ability of free will coexisting.
All we need are the definitions of omniscient and free will.
Not a problem.
But, I'm curious, how do you believe the Bible would be of any assistance in this conversation given the premise?

How can you say the Bible, God's word, is irrelevant to a topic about him? The Bible says God has foreknowledge over everything except ones fate. God cant determine our fate because he gave us freewill. Thats why I asked if the people who question God actually study the Bible. You question his methods and try to prove his word wrong without even reading the Bible. It has all the answers you're looking for but none of you actually take the time to find out those answers.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

The Bible says God has foreknowledge over everything except ones fate.

That's quite the paradox, unless you're subscribed to Agustine philosophy; where God can't do anything or create any situation that would in effect make God not God.

[NoSex]

How can you say the Bible, God's word, is irrelevant to a topic about him? The Bible says God has foreknowledge over everything except ones fate. God cant determine our fate because he gave us freewill. Thats why I asked if the people who question God actually study the Bible. You question his methods and try to prove his word wrong without even reading the Bible. It has all the answers you're looking for but none of you actually take the time to find out those answers.

We're disproving a specific God. The omniscient god (the all-knowing god) in relation to free will. That's the only god we are concerned with, thus the bible is rather irrelevant at this point.

But, If you are saying that the Christian god is truly not all-knowing, then free will is certainly a possibility. However, you can not have it both ways. Either god is all-knowing, or he isn't. If the bible presents a god which is not all-knowing, then that specific god is safe from these criticisms. However, I have yet to see the passage which declares such. If you mean to cite it, we may be able to discuss it.

[sweetangel2128]

Hmmm.... But i thought that the christian logic (at least what i was taught) was that if God controlled our every move... We would hate him... and not praise or glorify him on our own. He is also all knowing .. and controls everything... Doesn't that somehow contradict...

How is that contradicting? That makes no sense. Yes, God did give us free will, to make our own choices without him controling us and yes he's all knowing. How is free will and all knowing contradict? He gives us free will but he does know what our decision will make. Contradicting would be God saying he gives us free will but controlling certain things. Kinda like saying the United States is a free country but there are still things we cannot do...that is contradiction.

[NoSex]

How is that contradicting? That makes no sense. Yes, God did give us free will, to make our own choices without him controling us and yes he's all knowing. How is free will and all knowing contradict? He gives us free will but he does know what our decision will make. Contradicting would be God saying he gives us free will but controlling certain things. Kinda like saying the United States is a free country but there are still things we cannot do...that is contradiction.

If God knows what we're are "going to do" how could we ever have the power to do otherwise? Where do we have a choice? If God knows were are "going to choose" door 1, how can we have the option to choose door 2?

[sweetangel2128]

If God knows what we're are "going to do" how could we ever have the power to do otherwise? Where do we have a choice? If God knows were are "going to choose" door 1, how can we have the option to choose door 2?

That still doesn't make any sense, listen to yourself. Because he gave us free will and that is still free will because we are making that choice. God does know what door were gonna pick and he does know if were going to be unfaithful or that were gonna turn from sin. Just because he knows things doesn't imply we don't have free will. All knowing is knowing every little thing, free will is making your own choice. If we were going to pick door 2 as you put it, he'd know that's what our choice was.

I just don't get how your getting "all knowing" outta "free will"...theres a huge difference!

[NoSex]

That still doesn't make any sense, listen to yourself. Because he gave us free will and that is still free will because we are making that choice. God does know what door were gonna pick and he does know if were going to be unfaithful or that were gonna turn from sin. Just because he knows things doesn't imply we don't have free will. All knowing is knowing every little thing, free will is making your own choice. If we were going to pick door 2 as you put it, he'd know that's what our choice was.

I just don't get how your getting "all knowing" outta "free will"...theres a huge difference!

Read This Argument. (<<< click the link.)

Tell me exactly what is wrong with it. What, exactly, you disagree with.

Remember, God's foreknowledge predates our actions - "our choices." So, when we have to chance to "make a choice," God knows what we "are to do" before we ever have a chance to actually "do it." Thus, his foreknowledge must be followed. We don't have any other options, we must do what God knows. And, since we have no other options, we have no choice. And, since we have no choice, we have no free will.

[*I Viddy Horrorshow*]

That still doesn't make any sense, listen to yourself. Because he gave us free will and that is still free will because we are making that choice. God does know what door were gonna pick and he does know if were going to be unfaithful or that were gonna turn from sin. Just because he knows things doesn't imply we don't have free will. All knowing is knowing every little thing, free will is making your own choice. If we were going to pick door 2 as you put it, he'd know that's what our choice was.

I just don't get how your getting "all knowing" outta "free will"...theres a huge difference!

If you don't get it, you're misunderstanding something essentially very simple, and has been explained SEVERAL times over the course of this thread. I have to wonder if you're reading properly.

Now. Read this VERY carefully. Twice.

1) God is an omniscient being.

2) An omniscient being cannot be wrong, or be shown to be wrong, in any way. That would be contradictory. This, by dint of the the prefix 'omni', includes a suitably perfect foreknowledge

3) Therefore, God cannot be wrong, or shown to be wrong, in any way. That would be contradictory to his nature (see point 2).

4) Free-will involves the ability to make choices independently, free from higher powers which would limit one's ability to make said choice.

With me so far? Re-read points 1-4 again, just for kicks, because I want you to be absolutely certain.

Now, we're going to apply points 1-4 to a hypothetical situation involving a man named Jim. Here we go:

a) Jim is walking along a road.

b) Jim comes to a fork in the road. He must choose to go either left or right.

ci) God, by dint of his perfect foreknowledge (see point 2), knows that Jim will go left.
cii) Because of the perfection of this foreknowledge (see points 2&3), God cannot be wrong in this knowledge.

d) Therefore, Jim must, because of God's foreknowledge (a higher power; see point 4) go left.

e) Because Jim could not have gone right (se points 2&3), we can conclude that he did not have free-will in the matter.

---

Do you understand now how the two are indesputeably linked?

[sweetangel2128]

Read This Argument. (<<< click the link.)

Tell me exactly what is wrong with it. What, exactly, you disagree with.

Remember, God's foreknowledge predates our actions - "our choices." So, when we have to chance to "make a choice," God knows what we "are to do" before we ever have a chance to actually "do it." Thus, his foreknowledge must be followed. We don't have any other options, we must do what God knows. And, since we have no other options, we have no choice. And, since we have no choice, we have no free will.

But that doesn't mean we don't have free will. If he knows what were going to do in like 2 years but we don't know it, it is still a free choice because we are making it on our own and not being told or forced to make that choice. Do you kinda understand what I'm saying?

If you don't get it, you're misunderstanding something essentially very simple, and has been explained SEVERAL times over the course of this thread. I have to wonder if you're reading properly.

Now. Read this VERY carefully. Twice.

1) God is an omniscient being.

2) An omniscient being cannot be wrong, or be shown to be wrong, in any way. That would be contradictory. This, by dint of the the prefix 'omni', includes a suitably perfect foreknowledge

3) Therefore, God cannot be wrong, or shown to be wrong, in any way. That would be contradictory to his nature (see point 2).

4) Free-will involves the ability to make choices independently, free from higher powers which would limit one's ability to make said choice.

With me so far? Re-read points 1-4 again, just for kicks, because I want you to be absolutely certain.

Now, we're going to apply points 1-4 to a hypothetical situation involving a man named Jim. Here we go:

a) Jim is walking along a road.

b) Jim comes to a fork in the road. He must choose to go either left or right.

ci) God, by dint of his perfect foreknowledge (see point 2), knows that Jim will go left.
cii) Because of the perfection of this foreknowledge (see points 2&3), God cannot be wrong in this knowledge.

d) Therefore, Jim must, because of God's foreknowledge (a higher power; see point 4) go left.

e) Because Jim could not have gone right (se points 2&3), we can conclude that he did not have free-will in the matter.

---

Do you understand now how the two are indesputeably linked?

No! It still doesn't make any sense because the 2 are in no way connected. Like I said to the other person if God knew what we were gonna do 2 years from now but we had no knowledge that still doesn't stop us from making that free choice, we will still make it with no one or anything holding us back from making that choice, therefore it's still free will. God having knowledge of what were doing is not him controlling us but him just knowing what our "free will" choice will be.

For an example -

Lets say God is a psychic that can tell the future which he kinda is because that's what all knowing really is. Does that psychic keep you from making a free choice? NO! She just knows what your decision or what's going to happen to you in the future. You have the free will to make that choice because she sees you in the future making that choice but is not forcing it upon you. She is not controlling the choice. But seeing what the choice will be.

[*I Viddy Horrorshow*]

^ the difference is, God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whether we are aware of it at the time, we do NOT have any option as to what we will do. As I explained. It's really very simple.

[sweetangel2128]

^ the difference is, God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whether we are aware of it at the time, we do NOT have any option as to what we will do. As I explained. It's really very simple.

Yes, we do have an option because if free will did not exist, we'd all believe in God because he'd force us to believe that but he doesn't...he gave us free will/free choices to make. It doesn't matter if your planning to touch a freakin' door knob, he knows your plans but that doesn't imply you don't have free-will. It's your own choice to do that. I have asked other people there views and they side with me, non christian and christian because they are not even closely CONNECTED.

^ the difference is, God cannot be wrong.

What does God being wrong have to do with free will and being all knowing? There is no difference whatsoever.

[NoSex]

Heath21, to have free will do we not need options?

[sweetangel2128]

Heath21, to have free will do we not need options?

Yes, that's what having options are, free will and we do have that. So therefore, we have free will :)

[sweetangel2128]

Everyone that disagrees with what I'm saying on God being all knowing and us having free will. Tell me this, if we don't have free will why do we have choices to choose God over the Devil or the Devil over God or possibly neither. God gave us free will to choose him or no one that is free will right there. So, like you said that free will doesn't exist, don't you think everyone would be a Christian and be on God's side and believe him because God controls us? Explain that to me?

[silly ol' man]

I still don't get how foreknowledge precludes our ability to choose from a vast array of choices.

[*I Viddy Horrorshow*]

Heath, 1st of all, stop double posting, this isn't the first time I've had to mention this to you.

Secondly, since you have failed to grasp the VERY simple explanation that has been offered 980425761345 times in this thread, whether because you don't want to understand it, or because you lack comprehension, I suggest merely that you read the thread again. Because every single little obejection you have pointed out has already been addressed and redressed.

Just... read. It really is very, very simple.