The Problem of Free Will, A Theological Problem. Options

[NoSex]

Like, knowing that a certain team won wouldn't change the outcome, but it obviously couldn't be the other team winning since you already know the first team's going to win. It can't be any other way.

And since it "couldn't be any other way," you do not have a choice in the matter, because you have no options. Thus, no free will. Perfect foreknowledge denies free choice.

[*Uronacid*]

Alright, the fact that God knows everything doesn't mean that we cannot have free will. He gave us freewill. He can give us anything he wants. Even if God knows, what choices we are making. We still have free will. If you and your freind are plying a card game, and you know what card he will choose. Does it mean that he isn't making a choice? No, your friend has free will. You aren't determining his future.

We have free will whether God knows everything or not.

[oXMuhNirvanaXo]

Alright, the fact that God knows everything doesn't mean that we cannot have free will. He gave us freewill. He can give us anything he wants. Even if God knows, what choices we are making. We still have free will. If you and your freind are plying a card game, and you know what card he will choose. Does it mean that he isn't making a choice? No, your friend has free will. You aren't determining his future.

We have free will whether God knows everything or not.

Exactly, God gave us free will so that we could live our own lives the way we want to. We know we do wrong sometimes but this is also why He brought Jesus to the world to fogive us for all our sins. This is why when we know we have done somthing wrong we go to Jesus and ask Him to for give us for all our sins.

Myself, I dont think there is a problem with free will. I would love to give God a big pat on the back for free will. If we lived a perfect life we would be in heaven. No, this is where we go when we die. This is why we have to be good now so we get there in our after life. Hence the reason why there is free will. We choose if we want to go to heaven or not by doing good.. or bad things now. The funny thing I don't get is when people kill people and they go to Jesus and ask him to for give them for there sins.. He says yes and lets them in. This is where I say .. wtf.

[starlette]

Whos to say God knows the outcome. How bout he knows the possible oucomes and can just see whats happening currently. I don't remember reading or learning that God already knows if you are going to heaven. If he did just hit the ffw button and get it over with. Its like playing the sims. Why even play the game if you know EXACTLY what is going to happen. Cuz they have free will. hey will go and cook a meal when you arent looking and set the house on fire before you ahve a chance to save and they will die. and then theres no one there to plead the grim reaper for thei life and your sitting there going, well I didn't see that coming.


Okay maybe not exactly like that, but the game would suck if you know exactly what would happen thru every second of the game. you just ffw to the end and wind up watching a movie. I think of it more as those old "give youself goosebumps" books. Youre reading and there are options and you make the coice and God predetermined the intersections, but you choose the ending. so God made goosebumps books lol.

think of us as a huge ant farm. the ants are wondering along oblivious to your existence. Then you pour a bunch of water in there thinking you will drown them, and one survives. not cuz you planned it that way. He just made it. apparently he can hold his breath for a long time. what a suprize.

[Spirited Away]

Whos to say God knows the outcome. How bout he knows the possible oucomes and can just see whats happening currently. I don't remember reading or learning that God already knows if you are going to heaven. If he did just hit the ffw button and get it over with. Its like playing the sims. Why even play the game if you know EXACTLY what is going to happen. Cuz they have free will. hey will go and cook a meal when you arent looking and set the house on fire before you ahve a chance to save and they will die. and then theres no one there to plead the grim reaper for thei life and your sitting there going, well I didn't see that coming.

The words often used to describe God are omnipotent (all powerful), omniscience (all knowing), and omnipresent (always present). If God is omnipresent, He is everywhere at any time, so of course He would know our outcome. And, if He is omniscience, He would know the past, present, and future.

[NoSex]

Alright, the fact that God knows everything doesn't mean that we cannot have free will. He gave us freewill. He can give us anything he wants. Even if God knows, what choices we are making. We still have free will. If you and your freind are plying a card game, and you know what card he will choose. Does it mean that he isn't making a choice? No, your friend has free will. You aren't determining his future.

We have free will whether God knows everything or not.

Actually, God's perfect foreknowledge makes impossible a framework for free will.
Check out the argument I built, and let me know what you think.
My Argument Against Theological Free Will
Click it, and read it.
Keep in mind that choice requires the reality of multiple options. Keep in mind that choice is required for the possibility of free will. Read over the argument, it's pretty solid, I do believe.

[*kryogenix*]

Haven't been here in a LONG time.

Arguement fails. What you're trying to prove is that we don't have free will because we don't voluntarily choose our options. We can't choose because God knows what we will do.

For example, I turned off the electric fan near me just now. God knew I would turn off the fan because he is omniscient. Now, I had the option of leaving the fan on. What caused me to turn off the fan? Was it God's perfect foreknowledge? No, it was because I was feeling cold and I didn't need a fan to cool me down anymore. I had to option to leave the fan on, so it's not like God limited my choices.

[sadolakced acid]

you have outlined the illusion of free will.

just becuas eyou think you have the choice doesn't mean you do.

free will is an illusion. Sure, you can go to school naked, but you won't.

[*kryogenix*]

you have outlined the illusion of free will.

just becuas eyou think you have the choice doesn't mean you do.

free will is an illusion. Sure, you can go to school naked, but you won't.

There's a difference between a lack of other options, and a lack of other sensible options. Imagine a scantron, except there is only one big bubble. You can color it in, or you can leave it blank. Or you can draw a cartoon inside of it, around it, insult your teacher, etc. Just because the rest are not sensible doesn't mean you have a lack of options.

[sadolakced acid]

well, i picked something more extreme to outline it.

under certain conditions, you will always do the same thing. You will turn on the fan only if you start sweating, or something like that.

sure god didn't cause you to sweat and turn on the fan. But god knew. if you did anything else, it would have proved god wrong, which is a bad thing to do. watch dogma.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Haven't been here in a LONG time.

Arguement fails. What you're trying to prove is that we don't have free will because we don't voluntarily choose our options. We can't choose because God knows what we will do.

For example, I turned off the electric fan near me just now. God knew I would turn off the fan because he is omniscient. Now, I had the option of leaving the fan on. What caused me to turn off the fan? Was it God's perfect foreknowledge? No, it was because I was feeling cold and I didn't need a fan to cool me down anymore. I had to option to leave the fan on, so it's not like God limited my choices.

He didn't limit your choices because he didn't dictate what you would do, but he knew what would happen and you couldn't have left it on at that moment because that's not what was going to happen. For explanatory purposes, say I am God. You are reaching for the fan and I say to my little angel buddies, "Watch, he's going to turn it off cause he's cold; I know this already because I know this kid's entire future and life". And then you stopped yourself and didn't turn it off. I then say, "What? That doesn't make sense. I'm supposed to be omniscient! I knew he was going to turn it off, but he didn't! What's going on?!". Sure, you have free will in a sense, but you don't have free will to change what will inevitably happen because God already knows everything that's going to happen to you.

[NoSex]

I had to option to leave the fan on, so it's not like God limited my choices.

He didn't limit your choices because he didn't dictate what you would do, but he knew what would happen and you couldn't have left it on at that moment because that's not what was going to happen.

No, no. His omniscience certainly limits your options.
That's the problem. If we had options, we would have free will.
However, we don't have options given the perfect foreknowledge of God.

Main Entry: 1op·tion
Pronunciation: 'äp-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Latin option-, optio free choice; akin to Latin optare to choose
1 : an act of choosing
2 a : the power or right to choose : freedom of choice b : a privilege of demanding fulfillment of a contract on any day within a specified time c : a contract conveying a right to buy or sell designated securities, commodities, or property interest at a specified price during a stipulated period; also : the right conveyed by an option d : a right of an insured person to choose the form in which payments due on a policy shall be made or applied
3 : something that may be chosen: as a : an alternative course of action <didn't have many options open> b : an item that is offered in addition to or in place of standard equipment
4 : an offensive football play in which a back may choose whether to pass or run with the ball -- called also option play
synonym see CHOICE

If something is an impossible task, it would fail to be an option. If there is only a single course of action that "may be taken," we fail to have free will. So, we need an option in order to freely choose.

Now, if God is truly omniscient, men can only act according to his infallible and perfect foreknowledge. Thus, if God knows we are going to do A we can not do B, or C, or D. In fact, if God knows we are going to do A, we must do A, for anything non-A would make God false, and thus contradict his infallible and perfect foreknowledge. So, anything other than A would be an impossibility. Hence, not an option.

So, in Kyro's example there really is no option.

For example, I turned off the electric fan near me just now. God knew I would turn off the fan because he is omniscient. Now, I had the option of leaving the fan on. What caused me to turn off the fan? Was it God's perfect foreknowledge? No, it was because I was feeling cold and I didn't need a fan to cool me down anymore. I had to option to leave the fan on, so it's not like God limited my choices.

Kyro, how can it be an option to leave the fan on if it is impossible to do so?
Is this "option" merely just an illusion of such? And, if you had no option but to turn the fan off, how is that a free choice?

It's a solid analytical argument. Read it. Actually read and attempt to refute my full argument.
Click here and READ IT.
I'm looking for a rebuttle. Otherwise, your argument remains an ad nauseam.

[kimmytree]

Justin makes a good point. If all non-believers go to hell, and God knew before any non-believers existed that they would be non-believers, isn't that a little bit of favoritism? If God really loves all people, wouldn't he make it so that all of his creations would go to heaven?

Word.

[illriginal]

Every little move we make, has already been known to God... the scenerios would be:

It is Sunday night and you gotta go to work Monday:

A) You go to sleep at 3AM and you wake up late for work, God already knew this scenerio

B) You go to sleep at 11PM and you wake up on time for work, God already knew this scenerio

Every little action you make and every little thought you make has already been known to God.

It's a pattern known to God even before your family tree was created until what it is today.


It's like if you were given these numbers: 1 3 5 7 8 5 0 10 22
Just by lookin at it, you know every single answer to every single math equation ever known to man.

Another example if you don't understand:

God already knows A "AND" B it's up to you to choose which one... no matter what he already knows the answer for both...

He knows what's gonna happen when you choose A

AND

He already knows what's gonna happen if you choose B.

God's knowledge is infinite based on every material that exists and every thought that exists no matter if it's human or animal or plant etc..

God already knows why you're going to heaven AND going to hell.

It is your freewill to choose your path. Either way God knows every single reason why you belong in

heaven depending the path you choose AND God knows every single reason why you belong in hell

depending the path you choose.



God already set your millions and trillions etc.. of different endings...

It's up to you to pick which way you want to end it.

Your subconcsious chooses your path, your concsious doesn't know your path cuz you're only living your days.

Every little move you make effects you and effects everyone else in your environment and in their environment and so one, like a chain reaction.

God knows what would happen if you wake up at 11:30:01

God knows what would happen if you wake up at 11:30:02

God knows what would happen if you wake up at 12:00:00

It's your path, your subconscious picks these paths and your conscious does not realize how you wakin up 1 second diffrently than the possibilities of wakin up 10 seconds will effect your future/path.

If anyone here has knowledge in Metaphysics, Eastern Philophy, and especially Numerology, you could easily understand how chain reactions work. And how everything we do creates a on going chain reaction. Numerology is best in this category to see a physical explaination and metaphysics/philosophy can help explain the mind of God and how heavenly divine God is, and how one must be on that level, even if they must be a Divine Tyrant to show God your faith and the righteous path you're on.

The problem with freewill in my opinion is, most of the world just doesn't have a strong faith in God. They care less for the actions they take, they're more worried about life and their envorinment.

Now compare that (for example, don't want to make this a religious debate) with Islam, Muslims look forward to death, why? Because they stay on the righteous path. They know as soon as they die, they are not longer testing in this physical world, now they sit and wait for Judgement Day.

When they start to fall off that righteous path, Islamic Law puts them back on that righteous path. When I say fall of the righteous path, I'm speaking of commiting sins, losing family values, and become immoral. This is why Islam is soo strict, because the Laws are based on God's Laws, and what the Prophets did in order to serve justice (or in other words "Allah Justice") to those who disobeyed the Laws and it has not changed since then. Unlike man made laws, where now a days all they care about is making money off of those who break laws. I don't care what you did, but you did it... now pay me!

So freewill in general is beautiful, it's our gift from God but overall it has become disgusting over centuries. People have taken advantage of freewill, but it all matters in the afterlife anyways. I myself am not worried of death, in fact I find beauty in death, look forward to death, and no.... I'm not suicidal LOL

Hope this helps a little

Peace,
Tamacracker

[*I Shot JFK*]

^ riveting.

however, he is omniscient, and therefore knows which one you will pick. as he cannot be wrong, you cannot choose anything else. ergo, free will go bye bye.

[illriginal]

That makes no complete sense... that's exactly what this other kid on the bodybuilding.com said, but he was atheist so I completely understand if you're in that category.

Free will has noting to do with God havin knowledge of your future, this is where atheist fall in their belief. God does not get in the way of your path... he lets you freely choose what you want to do... but once you die, you're on his turf and it's time to pay your dues... if you have any.

[*I Shot JFK*]

This has nothing to do with atheism. you dont have to believe in something to understand the concept. I fact, disbelieving something wich you dont understand is foolish.

You grant that God is omniscient? Then by definition, he knows what option you will choose. You cannot change that, or he would be wrong, which is by definition impossible. Therefore, your future is preordained.

It makes perfect complete sense provided you understand words.

[NoSex]

That makes no complete sense...

Uhmm?
It makes perfect sense. It's entirely analytical, entirely sensical, and entirely logical. It's sound, it's reasonable. You have to read the formal argument I posted to understand my position. Please, by all means, read it. Otherwise, you aren't going to realize how meaningless your "rebuttles" are.

Click HERE , read the argument. Actually READ it. Please and thank you.

Free will has noting to do with God havin knowledge of your future, this is where atheist fall in their belief. God does not get in the way of your path... he lets you freely choose what you want to do...

This is why the God theory implodes on itself if you push it far enough. How can God allow us to "freely choose" when we have no options. A prerequisite to free choices are options. Without those options, we can not have a free choice. God's perfect foreknowledge negates any possible options in the matter. It is impossible to any but that which God's omniscience has seen. There is no freedom is you have no alternative.

Again, I encourage you to read my argument to understand my position more clearly. Once you have read it, then I'll be very interested in hearing a rebuttle.

[illriginal]

You do have options... God knows all your options, God doesn't MAKE you choose your path and God doesn't give you any sort of limitations, especially with your options of freewill... I posted a great way of showing how God gives us freewill and knows your choices anyways.

Atleast from the private messages I have received, people are agreeing this is practically a perfect explaination.

Anyways the info is up for everyone to read and hopefully understand

By the way... you have infinite choices... God knows them all, God's infinite. If you can't understand that... you haven't studied philosophy enough.

You have the freewill to kill yourself, to kill someone, to steal, to love, to hate, to run, to walk, to look at your tv real quick and look away, anything you can physically and humanly possiblly do... you can do, you're not limited. God knows of them all... before you even do it. We're God's project... we are his subjects, he knew of us, our family tree, adam..It was all planned right after God first defined the hands of time.

[*I Shot JFK*]

there is a difference between not understanding something and telling you that you are wrong = )

cite said private messages. because frankly, it isnt, as both nate and i and several others have refuted it merely by telling you the definition of one word.

that to me indicates a small flaw in the argument.

[illriginal]

3 results for: omniscience

View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | the Web
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source new!
om‧nis‧cience  /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[om-nish-uhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the quality or state of being omniscient.
2. infinite knowledge.
3. (initial capital letter) God.




This has nothing... NOTHING! To do with limitations... this has to do with KNOWLEDGE... INFINITE KNOWLEDGE. The human mind cannot author God's consciousness, especially when they themselves aren't as pure as God. This is why you guys cannot understand this concept. WIth that same arguement, you cannot overstand the purity and the meaning of God

[NoSex]

You have the freewill to kill yourself, to kill someone, to steal, to love, to hate, to run, to walk, to look at your tv real quick and look away, anything you can physically and humanly possiblly do... you can do, you're not limited.

So, is it physically and humanly possible to make God wrong? If God is all-knowing (omniscient) and perfect, he knows exactly what "we are going to do." He doesn't just know all possible outcomes; he knows the absolute outcome. He knows exactly what will happen.

Imagine that God knows human X will do B .
As a human being could X freely choose to do A over B?
Could human X freely choose to do anything non-B?
Does human X have an option as to whether or not "he will do" B?
If X does have an option, then he has the alternative power to do something other than B; say perhaps A.
If human X does A, when God knew he must do B, does this not negate God's perfect foreknowledge and omniscience?
In this case, God is not omniscient.
In the other case, that human X must always conform - involuntarily - to God's perfect foreknowledge and has no choice in the matter. He can not choose anything non-B, and thus has no options.

So, does man have the power to make God wrong in negating God's perfect foreknowledge?

The problem is that a true perfect foreknowledge conforms and imposes the future. If the foreknowledge is true, how there be an option to do otherwise in the future? It must happen, there is no freedom invloved, there are no options, it must be. The causality of the situation seems absurd because of the reality that this situation is an impossibility. They are two incompatible notions. Freewill and perfect complete and true foreknowledge can not exist at the same time. Not possible. They are inherently contradictory.

I still get the impression, from your posts, that you have not yet read my formal argument. Read it.

[illriginal]

I have read your first post, you're just not understanding, and now I will unsubscribe... Obviously many people aren't worthy and some are. But if you'd like to think there's no God that's fine by me

I would answer your question... but I see no point, for the fact being you don't want to believe, and the outcome will be.. I'm tryin to "force convert" so I'll stop my debate here on this thread.

[NoSex]

I have read your first post, you're just not understanding, and now I will unsubscribe...

Read my first post? I wasn't asking you to read my first post. Heck, I even gave you links to the exact post I wanted you to read. It isn't my first post. It's the formal version of this argument. If you honestly just read my first post, you listen even less than I thought.

Read it. Here is the link:
Formal Problem of Free Will Argument

Once you have read it, please note specifically what you disagree with. Show me where the problem is, exactly. The argument is outlined, so all you have to do is tell me that you disagree with "Premise 1" or "Conclusion 2" and tell me exactly why you don't agree. From there, we could have a meaningful discussion. But, right now, you're just fighting an ad nauseam, like everywhere else!

Obviously many people aren't worthy and some are. But if you'd like to think there's no God that's fine by me

Argumentum ad hominem.
Argument from insult.
Logical fallacy.
Meaningless.
Worthless.
Waste of time.

I would answer your question... but I see no point, for the fact being you don't want to believe, and the outcome will be.. I'm tryin to "force convert" so I'll stop my debate here on this thread.

Argumentum ad silentio
Argument from silence.
Compunded with -
Argumentum ad hominem.
Argument from insult.

[*I Shot JFK*]

Argument Ad Natum
Argument From Nate
Pwnage.