know your friends well, but your enemies better, why the united states will fall Options

[sadolakced acid]

The United States of America.

the promise land?
land of milk and honey?
land of the mountain of gold?

maybe.

yet, like all empires, doomed to fail.

why, you ask? mayhaps it's politics. mayhaps it's terrorists. or mayhaps it's cultural.

So says the old joke, that people who only know one language are americans. This may be true for some, but with more and more high schools requiring foriegn languages, this is slowly changing.

yet to what purpose? sure, we might learn the culture of the romans, the french, the spanish (and mexicans), and the germans. but will this help us in the world?

if we consider the world as a whole, what is the greatest threat to the United States of America? Is it russia? they seem to be fading from the stage, their act over, exiting stage left.

is it the middle east? certainly they are the source for terrorists. Yet what do terrorists do? they kill people. They terrorize. yet this is not what kills a nation. Terrorist's actions unify America, they make it stronger.

then what is the threat?

let's look at recent events.

george bush annouces that the united states will return to the moon by 2019.
and china anounces that they will put a man on the moon by 2018.

a brilliant display of one-up-manship if it's pulled off.

this is a nation that has vast potential, and they are begining to tap it. Sure, there are growing pains, but it means they are growing.

so let's consider this for a second. most every nation, china included, teach thier children to speak english.

To do this, they read american books, learn from american teachers, and watch american movies.

American culture is exported to other countries. yet these countries don't completely ignore thier own culture. the two- american culture and local culture- coexist.

jump to america.

a country where youths make jokes based on racial stereotypes from 100 years ago.

a country where most children's knowledge of chinese is how to say a few bad words.

a country where other cultures are not valued, or studied.

let us look to the future. Is the united states going to be able to sell things to china? not anymore, not with our limited understanding of thier culture.

but they, on the other, they have hundreds of thousands of college graduates who know how to operate in a western buisness world, who know what americans want, and can give it to them for much cheaper.

So what, you ask. Why should it matter?

the answer is staring you in the face. America dominates because america innovates. the internet. automobiles. aeroplanes. all created here.

so what happens when america loses it's innovation? then it's military weapons cease to be the worlds best. It's industry ceases to do things others cannot. It's commerce soon depends on someone else. and it's dominence-- it's dominence fades.

and thus the empire falls.

[vash1530]

of course the fall of america will happen but most empires stay around for a couple 1000 yrs so i cant see us going down the pipe anytime soon. btw what does that have to do with the title? im not making the connection.

[sadolakced acid]

americans don't know thier enemies.

but our enemies know us all too well.

therefore, we will fall, in the next 50 years.
at least, from power.

the government will fall not long after that.

[*kryogenix*]

I'm sure the CIA knows plenty about our enemies.

[*mipadi*]

Your portrayal of our limited knowledge of eastern culture is a bit inaccurate. At my university, I know a lot of people--numbering easily into the hundreds--that are either from an East Asian nation, spent much of their lives in an East Asian nation, trace their ancestors back to an East Asian nation and know a lot about their heritage, and/or are actively studying Chinese or Japanese. The number of people I personally know who are actively studying Chinese or Japanese is easily into the dozens. So there are definitely a fair number of people in the US who do study East Asian cultures, especially Japanese and Chinese. Even I, a computer science student, have taken courses in Japanese, and I am also actively involved in numerous Asian culture clubs on campus. In fact, our largest Asian awareness group--whose mission is to promote the study of Asian cultures--is one of the largest clubs at our campus. And China is rapidly growing as a study-abroad option for American students.[1] (A good friend of mine is studying in China next semester, and another friend of mine just got back from China this semester.)

It's true that at the high school level, most studies of culture seems to focus primarily on western cultures, but that's not entirely true of the collegiate level--there are a lot of Chinese studying going on at American universities. Does that mean that America's position is not precipitous? Not at all. To remain "on top", it certainly is important for America and American students to realize the importance of countries such as China in the world community, and it is important for America to emphasize the importance of Chinese studies. Of course, China shouldn't be the only focus; the Middle East, too, is important--terrorism is unfortunately a threat to the balance of power. Russia, too, is still an important player in world politics, as is European nations such as France and Germany. Germany is even more important due to its status as a major trading partner with the US. So there are a lot of countries, certainly China included, that the US could benefit from studying, and American students should be encouraged to study these important cultures.

[ComradeRed]

Also losing primacy isn't the same as collapse--I mean just look at the British, they aren't number one dog any more but they'res till doing fine.

[edit]
removed double post

This post has been edited by kryogenix: Dec 28 2005, 11:47 AM

[sadolakced acid]

james, that's the CIA tho. the populus needs to know the enemy as well.

michael, sure, there may be study on the collegate level. but that's not everyone, and it's not as widespread as thier knowledge of us.

for instance, if you went to china and were supposed to take an important buisnessman to dinner, would you know how to act? they would know how to act if they came to america to convince a buisnessman to invest in them.

and minda, as far as losing dominance- if dominance is lost to eastern nations, then the effects will be much greater than that or britian's losing dominance.

loss of dominance to china will mean a cold war, and we will lose. we will have to take the lower role, which we're not at all prepared to do. Britian thrives, why? becuase thier culture is similar to ours, and we're dominate right now.

if china thrives, then who gains? all the other east asia countries- japan and korea in particular.

[innovation]

Justin? Why were you up so late?

Is it really the best policy for the US to label China an "enemy", considering its rapid growth both economically and politically? Methinks not. Mayhaps the US should begin adapting more to this globalizing world, but it shouldn't motivate its public through "fear of collapse." Actually, I was just talking to a student from China about this at a Christmas Eve party. The Chinese public already hates US policies, mostly because of Bush. Creating this fear among Americans is not the way to go. Bad diplomacy.

Besides, the US has already been adopting somewhat--the College Board is administering its first AP Chinese exam in May 2007. And Tufts University has an entire institute that promotes studying abroad in China. It's happening already; people are realizing the need to learn about China.

Sorry, I just had to get some Justinisms in there, like "mayhaps" and "methinks". :D

edit--

I just realized that I'm from Washington, DC, and you're from Alabama. And we're in high school, while Michael is in college. Perhaps our location and environment offer different perspectives of the US's efforts to globalize?

*TOK MOMENT*

And I also just noticed my signature. It feels very much at home in this thread.

[*mipadi*]

michael, sure, there may be study on the collegate level.  but that's not everyone, and it's not as widespread as thier knowledge of us.

for instance, if you went to china and were supposed to take an important buisnessman to dinner, would you know how to act?  they would know how to act if they came to america to convince a buisnessman to invest in them.

There are two things I believe you may be overestimating. One is the extent of American studies in China, which could be more than the extent of the Chinese studies in the US, but significantly more? There are a lot of scholarly Chinese studying America, but is the typical Chinese person scrutinizing America? Is the typical Chinese peasant in a village far away from any city studying American culture? And more importantly, are they doing so any more than the typical US citizen in a small town in, say, Iowa?

I'd certainly agree that the typical corn farmer in Iowa, or auto worker in Detroit, does not know that much about China or Chinese culture. I'd also be willing to bet that the typical Chinese peasant is not an expert on American culture. And I'd also be willing to bet that, in your illustration, these facts do not really matter. They don't have an active role in any international political game. The corn farmer doesn't directly sell his crops abroad; the auto worker doesn't export the hubcap he riveted to another country; the Chinese peasant doesn't send his crops to America. My point, of course, is not that the study of international culture is not important at all; rather, it's not important that everyone have a good knowledge of Chinese culture, because (relatively speaking) only a few Chinese scholars, politicians, and businessmen have a strong knowledge of American culture. In other words, it's certainly important that we have some of our best and brightest minds in politics, business, and other international sectors studying China, but it's not vital to America's success that everyone does so.

Would I personally know how to interact with a Chinese businessman, should I need to take him to dinner? No, I would not. I don't know a word of Chinese. I'm not an expert in Chinese etiquette. But the key here is that I am unlikely to be in a situation in which I need to greet a Chinese businessman and convince him to invest in a company. I'm not a businessman. I'm not studying business. I don't plan on running that aspect of a business. So there's no need to know Chinese etiquette. Now, it makes more a more well-rounded and knowledgeable person to know a bit about Chinese culture. It might help a lot if I school myself in Chinese politics. It's certainly a good thing to know about the status of China in the world community and how that affects me. Maybe someday I'll have to interact with the Chinese. If and when that day comes, I'll likely be able to pick up enough Chinese etiquette to deal with such a businessman. But it's not my role to study the details of China now, as I have no interest in having political or business interactions with China.

The one thing that a post-secondary education teaches a student is that one can't be an expert in everything. The key to America's success is encouraging the study of China, but leaving it up to those who have a direct interest in it, and letting others focus on what they do best. I'd rather have the Iowa farmer know a lot about growing corn and spend most of his time doing it, than spend most of his time studying China.

Do we need more education, and earlier education, about China? Yes. Should the US encourage students--of all ages--to study China? Yes. But it's not a bad thing if only a relatively small number of bright, ambitious people who interact with China know a lot about China. If some guy in a field or on an assembly line that never interacts with China is not an expert in China, I hardly think that spells doomsday for the US.

[sadolakced acid]

up so late mindy? doesn't seem late at all, comparitively.

and i did notice the justinisms, as you call them, in your post. :-)


the label of china as an enemy is quite reactionary. they are, at most, rivals. yet, rivals do defeat each other.

however- for the sake of better effect, it is more efficient to label china "the enemy".

sure, mayhaps chinese do hate the US and US policies because of bush.

but if it were not part of a joke, would anyone know who the president of china is? or who the PM is? Not many people know that either, even with the joke. And do many people know china's policy?
methinks not.

yet chinese people are ready to hate the US becuase of bush and his policies?

that somewhat proves my point, doesn't it?

mayhaps it is our differing environments that lead to different observations. but all are representative of a part of america.




sure michael, i may be overestimating those things. but that's not the only knowledge i'm talking about.

chinese students are regularily taught english. for american students, chinese is usually an elective, if it's offered at all (on the high school level).

and michael, you may not need to talk to chinese buisnessmen, but what if someone in china created a programming language based on chinese? and what if this became a popular programming language? improbable, sure. but impossible?

[innovation]

I agree that the US government should encourage the American public to globalize itself, Justin. I just don't believe that they should use fear as a motive.

[sadolakced acid]

because in the words of a wise man

fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

mayhaps the use of fear is not ideal. alright. i'm not the government though, and using fear is a nice way of getting a nice debate out of everyone.

[innovation]

Justin.

[sadolakced acid]

mindy.

you know yoda's the cooliest.

[*mipadi*]

sure michael, i may be overestimating those things.  but that's not the only knowledge i'm talking about.

chinese students are regularily taught english.  for american students, chinese is usually an elective, if it's offered at all (on the high school level).

It might be beneficial to offer Chinese to more high school students, although I hardly think it would be warranted to mandate the teaching of Chinese--China is an important nation, but there are other important nations out there, cultures that we might miss if we focus exclusively on China. Furthermore, I would point out that, since college is essentially where people receive training for future careers, and American college students are actively studying Chinese, China, and Chinese culture, we're not completely in dire straits at this point. Interest in China has been growing rapidly as of late. China is an important country to watch, and an important country to learn about, but we can't focus all our attention on China, or we'll miss other important nations and cultures, as well.

and michael, you may not need to talk to chinese buisnessmen, but what if someone in china created a programming language based on chinese?  and what if this became a popular programming language?  improbable, sure.  but impossible?

This specific case is highly unlikely. China's tech industry is mainly predicated on the emulation, replication, or outright piracy of American hardware and software. Of course, Chinese engineers could conceivably come up with a new design in order to reduce their reliance on American goods--this is currently happening with Red Flag Linux, for example. And there are Chinese programming languages, such as Chinse BASIC. There are, in fact, several other non-English programming languages, including Fjölnir, Lexico, Plankalkül, Rapira, and var'aq, as well as numerous esoteric languages not based on any spoken or written language in the world. However, given that English is the most widely spoken language in the tech industry (Mandarin is, of course, the most spoken primary language in the world, but taking into account the number of people who speak English as a second or third language, and the fact that most Chinese are not programmers, English dominates in the industry), it is likely that any language created that was based on Chinese would be ported to an English-based language fairly quickly, or not used widely outside of China.

If that were not the case, then I suppose I'd have to learn such a language. But this brings up my earlier point: why concentrate on an area that might become an issue, and neglect areas that are issues? I'm much better of concentrating on languages that are widely used, and concentrating on technologies that are likely to be used, rather than concentrating on a technology that doesn't exist and isn't likely to exist.

[sadolakced acid]

of course, don't make it manditory.

but consider; more people in china speak english than people in america.

numbers wise.

[vash1530]

^i dont think that matters in the long run. will our lack of knowledge on chinese culture be our downfall? I doubt it. If anything it will be china's fast growing economy.

[sadolakced acid]

you're thinking to loosing economic dominance.

and yet, thier booming economy has something to do with what i'm saying.

but i'm saying it will go further from there because of our lack of knowledge.

[Dragonfly_babe]

With the fall of every great nation a new one is born. This problem does not only apply to America but countries everywhere.

[Spirited Away]

but consider; more people in china speak english than people in america.

For the simple reason that Americans own more variety (and easy access) as to what languages they can learn.

I'm not sure about China, but in comparison to Vietnam language wise, more Vietnamese know English than Americans know Vietnamese, proportionally speaking. This is because, again, English courses are easily accessible and are more popular compared to... oh German or Spanish, thus, more Vietnamese learn English as a second language.

[*kryogenix*]

you're thinking to loosing economic dominance.

and yet, thier booming economy has something to do with what i'm saying.

but i'm saying it will go further from there because of our lack of knowledge.

I believe I read somewhere that Swedish students are better than American students at English.

OMG THE SWEDISH ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER!

[sadolakced acid]

For the simple reason that Americans own more variety (and easy access) as to what languages they can learn.

I'm not sure about China, but in comparison to Vietnam language wise, more Vietnamese know English than Americans know Vietnamese, proportionally speaking. This is because, again, English courses are easily accessible and are more popular compared to... oh German or Spanish, thus, more Vietnamese learn English as a second language.

i'm not talking percentages.

i'm talking sheer numbers.

there are more chinese who speak english than there are people in america.

I believe I read somewhere that Swedish students are better than American students at English.

OMG THE SWEDISH ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER!

but the sweeds have neither the numbers nor the economy to do anything.

[Spirited Away]

i'm not talking percentages.

i'm talking sheer numbers.

there are more chinese who speak english than there are people in america.

But if we don't talk percentages, your observation would be skewed. I mean if all 1.2+ billion Chinese can speak English, then of course they would outnumber Americans even if all Americans can speak Chinese. And yes, there would be more Chinese who can speak English in China than there are Americans who can speak Chinese in America because, as Michael have mentioned, we focus not only on China but other countries that are of import to us. But you know, I'm not so sure about this at all. Is it possible to get some stats involved to see if your observation is true?

[*disco infiltrator*]

More Chinese people speak English than there are Americans because THERE'S WAY MORE PEOPLE IN CHINA THAN THERE ARE IN AMERICA. The fact is not surprising. Most other industrialized countries learn English from childhood, because ya know what? It's a universal language. It's used worldwide.

How in the world do you figure that the fact that at least half the world speaks English will lead to America's downfall? Of course they know more about our culture. Our culture is spread throughout the world. All of our products are sold in most every other country...Duh other countries know about us.

[sadolakced acid]

but that's exactly why empires fall.

take rome. They rose because of thier military technology- thier roads, their weapons. Yet when they became powerful, thier enemies aquired this technology, yet the romans did not aquire knowledge of all thier enemy's technology, it was impossible.

this is why the barbarian tribes were able to sack rome. Sure, the declining leadership of rome, etc. were to blame for not correcting the problem, etc. but the actual blow was because of thier lack of knowledge.

of course, right now, the US guards it's military technology. But consumer products- computers, cars, etc. those, the chinese are manufacturing.

it's the same principle. the chinese will be able to make american products and chinese products, while americans will make american products.