Hazing, Should something be done about this? Options

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Hazing, as you may or may not know, is where people are abused by older kids or by higher ranking members of a group. This occurs in middle school (although least frequently), high school, colleges (especially fraternities and soroities), and in the military. Many of these abuses occur as an initiation ritual, which is so the new or younger member will be accepted and ready for membership. This abuse is illegal in 44 states. The states not included are Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, Hawaii, Wyoming, and South Dakota.

I will emphasize here that the young adults that being hazed are often letting this happen because of fear of even worse punishment for trying to escape and out of a desire to belong. Psychology emphasizes that people will do a lot just for a feeling of belonging. It is biologically rooted in each and everyone of us.

Section 1 will include some disturbing examples of hazing I found on a site. The site emphasizes that these stories and pictures are sexually erotic, the males are enjoying these experiences, and this should be arousing for women. Although some of the material on the site may fit into this description, I do NOT believe these males are enjoying this. Here is there interpretation:

quote: This site does not focus on BDSM activity. We do not promote brutality and physical harm to men. There of course is often a power and control element when a nude person is fully exposed to a clothed person of the opposite sex. This is an integral part of the erotica surrounding many of the stories and pictures posted, and much erotic enjoyment is found in this this aspect. In addition, the control may be accentuated through the woman's enjoyment of embarrassing and humiliating the nude man, which if not overdone can be a very enjoyable experience for both the man and those observing the situation.

I feel that the interpreting of these hazing experiences sends out these messages:
1. Males always enjoy being humilated and embarrassed through their naked bodies.
2. That males enjoy having their privacy invaded and their sexual acts publicly observed. As well as male enjoying being FORCED to do these sexual acts publicly.
3. That there is nothing wrong with discriminating against the size of male genitals.
(I have made a previous post where I state my opinion on why size is not important.)
Some Facts Against Size
4. That hazing in a sexual context is provoking and enjoyable for males.
Although I don't believe the site intends to send out these messages, I feel that is what acceptance of these initiation rituals imply, and I also emphasis that ALL of these messages are very wrong.

IF YOU ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 18, I ENCOURAGE YOU NOT TO READ SECTION 1. This information would be emotionally disturbing for most people. I am 18 and this information disturbs me deeply. I am a person who cares deeply for others. This information, as well as others, have made me very upset and I've cried reading it.
IF YOU ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 18, I ENCOURAGE YOU TO SKIP TO SECTION 2 AND 3. Section 2 will contain opinion that are for hazing (pro-hazing). While Section 3 will contain my opinion and a link to a site that will give stories of hazing, and although they may make you feel angry or disgusted, these stories are much less disturbing, and are especially less disturbing on a sexual level that those in Section 1 are.

Section 1 : Disturbing Stories of Hazing

I will not give a link to this site, as it shows explictly nude males.

I am going to quote and describe some of the material I've seen here.

The history of male athletes being completely nude in front of women goes back thousands of years to ancient Greece and the Olympics when all Olympian athletes competed nude. Fortunately for many women, although such practices have died out, team initiation rituals are alive all over the planet. In the photo to the left, a team member is surrounded by women and is then "de-pantsed", meaning another teammate comes from behind and pulls his shorts and jock strap to his knees. Evidently in this situation, the initiation ritual requires him to leave his pants at his knees providing the ladies with an opportunity to get a prolonged view of his cock and [butt] while they laugh at his embarrassment.

One of the first things I would like to emphasize is that all the males in these hazing experiences that I give her are young adults, many being 18 or 19 years of age.

This example of hazing shows just how cruel hazing can be. I don't see how someone could support something like this. In the picture, you can very easily tell the athlete is frightened, as well as completely humilated and is not enjoying this. I would also like to emphasize that the athlete is faced with a fear of greater punishment for trying to stop this and will not be admitted to this athletic group if he does not go through this cruel process.

Various colleges hold similar initiations in this part of Europe. Here guys are brought on stage and are required to strip for the entire school. As you can see, these girls are loving the viewing opportunity. . . . Despite the attempts of the athletes to conceal their privates during the elephant march, it is to no avail as the march is a prelude to even more exposure. . . . The finale occurs when the men must line up on stage, backs to the the women. They are then instructed to put their hands on their heads and leave them there. . . . After giving the ladies a naked butt show the athletes are instructed to walk in a circle keeping there hands on their heads. . . . Finally, with hands still on their heads they strut their stuff for the ladies. Each guy must walk to the front of the stage facing the audience thereby giving the women an opportunity to view the d**k of every athlete, thereby providing the ultimate truth as to which guy truly does have the longest penis and biggest pair of balls. They strut for a good while allowing the women plenty of time to get an eyeful as well as some great pictures.

As this is an initiation, these athletes again have unfair consequences for not participating.

I think it is disgusting to discrimate against size like that.

Nollningen is a Swedish college initiation ritual in which the entire school particpates, including faculty. During the initiation the Nolls (freshmen) play games and have ceremonies in which many of them are forced to strip completely naked, much to the delight of the girls present. To the chagrin of the guys, although the girls participate they never strip naked but may sometimes undress down to panties and bras

Notice that it does say FORCED and that the faculty partcipates and supports this initiation ritual. This might not bother all the guys, but I am sure there are plenty who do not want to this.

These next examples were submitted by people to the site. Unfortunately, the worst is yet to come...

    Sorority Judging the Pledges
    Story by Michelle

    I just stumbled on to this site and realized you'd like a story I posted elsewhere. This actually happened at a major university in the south in the mid 1980s. There was a fraternity house that routinely performed a ritual the last night of Hell Week. Our entire sorority was usually invited to participate each year, and all sisters, including our new pledges, would required to attend.

    On the night of the ritual, we would be lead into the large den of the fraternity. There would be rows of chairs for us to sit in and watch the ceremony, with the front rows reserved for the girls. The new fraternity recruits, usually about 15 or so, would be lead into the large den of the frat house and instructed to stand in a row in front of us. The young guys would have towels wrapped around themselves. When the towels were removed we laughed hysterically seeing that they all wore athletic jock strops with the fraternity insignia over their crotches. Wearing nothing but the jock straps, they would be told to recite sayings of allegiance to the fraternity and would be asked various questions as to why they wanted to join. Upon satisfactory answers, they were instructed to collectively turn and face the fraternity insignia above the fireplace and recite the pledge to the fraternity. When they turned we would giggle at the awkward sight of their exposed butts facing. After their pledge to the fraternity and with their backs still facing us, they were ordered to take off the jock straps.

    The pledges were then ordered to turn around. They would usually be grasping their manhood hiding it from us. One of the frat brothers would be lecturing the recruits about loyalty to the fraternity and that they were always expected to be sincere in trust and honesty, and never "to hide anything" from their brothers or sisters. This was the segue for their next instruction, which was to stand at attention with both hands to their sides allowing everyone, including the sisters, to view their manhood. The eyes of my sisters were wide open with big smiles as the recruits stood completely naked with genitals dangling just a few feet in front of us. Many of the girls, especially the freshmen, had seen few cocks in their life. For us it gave us an opportunity to check out how guys' dicks varied, especially in the way of size.

    Then, the frat brother giving orders would say something like (if I remember correctly) "This fraternity holds a strong legacy, it takes balls to stay in this fraternity, big balls". Then he would go one by one down the line presenting each pledge to the sorority girls. The pledges were told to hold their penises against their stomachs and the frat brother would say something like "Sisters, this is Scott Jensen. Ladies, please look at Scott's balls and tell us if you think they're big enough for this fraternity".

    He was then instructed to hold his balls in the palm of his hand, presenting them to us for inspection. As we looked down at his balls we would say something like "yes, they are big enough", or simply give a thumbs up. Some of the girls were as embarrassed as the boys, but all were grinning widely or laughing.

    The last step was the ceremonial spanking ritual. The pledges, still naked, would be allowed to chose the girl to spank them. They would proceed to a chair in front of the fireplace, bend over with their hands on the chair and butts facing us. The girls would give five hard swats with a paddle, and if they weren't hard enough, they'd be instructed to do it again. Most girls started with a light tap, but the brothers kept her there until the swats made the respective pledge's butt crimson red.

    The recruits would stand in line facing us one last time and instructed to thank us for spanking them. Then they would be allowed to wrap the towel around themselves. This was a ritual that continued every year even after I had left, and would involve different sororities, all sworn to the Greek code of silence. If anyone knows if it is still occurring, please let me know as this would make for a great alumni event!

    Sorority Girl Reflects on Her Experiences
    Story by Anonymous Contributor

    I used to be very skeptical of the fraternity initiation stories I read in which women were present as my fraternity buddies often told me nothing of this ilk ever happened with their specific fraternity. But, as I've learned, some did it routinely. My beliefs were changed by a young girl I met recently who attended a college up north. The story she told me was incredible, not because it is so different than the others, but she was very sincere and credible with no reason to lie or alter the story. I pressed her for details and we discussed the rituals at length, although I know she could discern more than a passing interest on my part.

    The fraternity was reportedly Lambda Chi, and anyone that is/was part of Lambda Chi is welcomed to comment (it happened only about 5 years ago). Lambda Chi has over 300 chapters, and as with any Greek organization, each chapter varies considerably in initiation practices; hence, this is not necessarily reflective of their standard practices. This particular chapter had an initiation process in which an entire sorority house was invited to watch, and the sorority was different each year. It was held in a large room and the lights were out, only lit by many candles. In the specific ceremony she was witnessing, the girls were far enough into the shadows such that they could not be readily seen. She indicated that her entire sorority was present at the initiation, which was 60 girls, and the girls had to keep absolutely quiet. Further, she indicated the ritual was at 6:00 a.m. with the pledges having had very little sleep.

    The male pledges (about 15) were told to strip completely naked then were led out in single file with their right hands on the shoulder of the pledge in front of them. Without knowing the girls were present, they were then told to turn facing away from the audience. The ceremony proceeded with each pledge being asked a barrage of questions that she said were extremely private and often humiliating to the pledge. According to her, many of the fraternity brothers and sorority sisters took great delight not only in the humiliation of these young men by these questions, but more importantly having them humiliated while standing completely naked in front of a room full of girls without their knowledge.

    She didn't want to go into the nature of the questions, but only that they dealt with masturbation habits of the pledges, admission about the size of the erect penises and the like. She said one of the pledges indicated he had slept with one of the girls in the sorority, which she later told us was an absolute lie. During the interrogation that sorority girl was pretty angry, but didn't say anything at that time.

    After each pledge answered the question, the girls watched the pledges bend over and have their naked butts spanked raw with a paddle. Then, the pledges were told to put their hands on top of their heads and shut their eyes and if they peeked they would be paddled again. They were then told to turn around. At that point they were facing the girls and and the prolonged silence made it clear the fraternity brothers wanted to give all these sisters a long opportunity to closely view the dicks of each pledge without his knowledge. I asked her what her thought were at that moment and she told me that it was wild. It really made obvious the variance in male genitalia as she compared each guy with the next. She said she found it surprising in that one of the guys that was short and had small features actually had the largest penis whereas one of the buff guys had a very tiny penis and scrotum. She confirmed that it was the favorite moment for all her sisters. Then, after they all had a good, long look the lights were all turned on and the pledges were told to open their eyes. She said the guys freaked out upon seeing the girls looking at them and laughing hysterically.

    At that point, the girl that had been lied about screamed at the pledge "You liar! No way would I EVER sleep with you you jerk!" She said the guy was completely humiliated, standing there naked with his hands on his head, d**k dangling having to answer to an entire sorority after he just made a total fool out of himself.

    I asked her if the reverse ever happened, whereby the girls were naked while the guys watched the initiation, and she replied absolutely not. The sororities were pretty proprietary about their initiations with no guys allowed.

    But she added that it seemed to be common for those fraternities that had a culture of stripping the pledges naked and humiliating them to have the sororities present to watch as it took it to a completely different level. She said she had heard about one fraternity that did the same kind of initiation; however the pledges had blindfolds on their heads and couldn't see. They were told to face the audience, which unbeknownst to them, included one of the sororities. They were then told to play with their cocks and get them erect and then jack off. After the guys had cum, they were told to pull the bags off their heads, no doubt freaking and running off as the girls laughed. However, she said she had never witnessed this.

I don't even want to reread them. I never knew hazing was this bad, I've been truly disgusted by this kind of cruelty. But it takes knowing the truth to change things.

I don't see as this cruelty has any good purpose. I mean I'm 18, and I've spent years of my life trying to accept myself and my body, as I am sure many other teenagers have. This kind of sexual abuse dirties that perception. I assure you that this will NOT make them feel more comfortable with their bodies or sexual tendencies. Being forced into extremely embarrassing, humilating, and degrading situations. Women who are raped don't feel more comfortable with their bodies or sex, just the opposite happens, they fear sex. The same thing happens here, and probably the psychological problems it could cause run somewhere along the same lines. Like the guys who masturbated, they will probably feel like their practice of sexual satisfaction is unacceptable and something to be ashamed of. Their self-esteem drops, their self-acceptance drops. Sure, they feel better when it is over, and may feel like they accomplished something great, but a woman who is being raped, I'm sure is glad when it is over. However, the psychological and emotional issues that develop still linger, in both cases.

Section 2 : Pro-Hazing vs Anti-Hazing Opinions

Here I am going to quote some posts from another site that support hazing. I Will respond to some of the opinions here in Section 3. Many of the responses to these posts were made by a person with username nkrempely, I will inculde some of these as well, because he shares good, interesting views. (The misspellings are theirs, not mine.)

I'm not entirely pro-hazing, but I think the most convincing reasons for protecting it are as follows: Hazing provided mental and (sometimes) physical challenges for the pledge to overcome. The tests can bring greater appreciation for the reward (membership) and forge bonds between people (through mutual experience). It does have an interesting power to enhance pledges self-confidence, which is why i believe many leaders in society come from the greek system. Hazing imbues a sense of accomplishment that can be relished for the rest of one's life. Usually brothers look back on it fondly - although I think this is a strange phenomenom.

nkrempely : I realize how hazing can help, but if some people are hurt more than helped is it worth it? If people die for a small amount of people to continue on through life with a false sense of confidence, is that worth it. I believe that getting your fix, or your props off, should be done in a more constructive way, something that’s help more than hurts. Join the army, be a mentor, help the needy, but making up little games and ways to always have someone outcast to bring a few people closer together isn't something that I would be proud of. I wonder about the times, not too long ago, where all you had to do was eat a live goldfish, you couldn't really die from that but some of the more recent hazing, esp. the high school thing on the news, seem to be just a repeating cycle of hate. One group can't get over it and grow up so they hold resentment towards the people taking their place and they continue the cycle of stupidity. Because I went through a hard, almost life ending rite of passage, I don't feel the need to make some one else feel my pain. We all have enough pain, why cause more?

I agree with you, nkrempely, that, if possible, hazing should be done in a positive, constructive fashion. But many believe that the negative attributes of hazing are essential to its function. What better way to teach self-confidence under duress than to place the pledge in a stressful situation? What better way to bring poeple together than to place them all in the same stressful sitaution, together? When trying to build muscle, one must put large amounts of stress on the muscle; if it is easy there is no benefit, no strength. Likewise with hazing, many believe we are striving for "mental toughness" which can only be taught through negative stimuli. And, if no one is physically harmed during the process, is it really that bad?

nkrempely : Physical harm is just as bad as emotional harm. I think that you’re taking hazing to your preferred extreme. Boot camp is not hazing, bench-pressing 300lbs is not hazing, and throwing feces and urine on people who are defenseless is hazing. I only believe and have noticed that few people gain something from being in a hazing situation. Most people do better by progressively moving forward. To use your exercising example, I recently got a bowflex, now, when I started using it I would use 30lbs per arm on the incline bench press, but now I can do 80lbs. Hazing however is like trying to push 100lbs when all you can do is 50lbs. Working out without enough rest is like treading water, sure you burn calories but make no progress. Another example, aerobic exercise, burns just as much muscle as fat! Hazing causes as much damage to some as good to others. Would you rather help 90/100 people or 20/100, I would feel much better knowing I helped more people than less. How would you like it if your father and mother were hazed for work, if they didn't pass you would be in the lower class, if they did pass they would be in the upper class. Now, if approx. 1% of the world owns 95% of world’s wealth, would you like that to all be decided because someone cracked or didn’t under pressure. Every hazing incident I can think of never helps anyone, you could have a perfect wrestler but he gets pink bellied and the emotional trauma is worse that the physical, I think the coach would certainly think twice about hazing after he lost a star player. Just a few things to think about. Nice try with the working out analogy, but when does hazing go in small increments like exercising?

I know what I went through to get into my Sorority, and looking back I do not think that a person should have to go through all what I went through to get into an organization. I do think that there must be some standard or some process to join into a sorority or fraternity. These organizations are based on principles, most are sisterhood/brotherhood, scholarship, and community service. You want to make sure that the person who is joining your organization is one who will not only work for your organization but represent the prinicipals for which it stands to the best of his/her ability. When you work hard to get something you really cherish it because you know that it was hard to get. If it was just handed to you, it would not mean much. By going through a process you appreceiate it better, cherish it more, and work harder. So what do I think overall. I think that there should be some degree of hazing but nothing life threatening. Unfortunately that did not happen to me but in any event I appreciate and love my sorority and my pledge experience helped me tremendously.

"nkrempely : I'm sorry to say but most people who are wishy washy on this topic really have the wrong idea(s). Hazing in any form is wrong, period. So if you want to be a masochist and take it the hard way don't confuse your wanting to be lead down a certain path with inhuman treatment. I fully understand Bahama Mamma's statement that things shouldn't be handed over to people, do bums appreciate handouts? Do trustfund babies respect what they get? Personally I know it goes beyond all that, to use a christian example, not because I am a christian, which I am not, but it is soo easy. The diciples weren't at the low end and they weren't rich, however they came to realize the awesome power of Jesus, God, and they followed him, they did not need to be beaten down to get to heaven. If everything was built around a world of hazing, you go to your grandma's house and you ask for a fresh baked cookie and you get a spanking in order to get the cookie, doesn't make sense! Personally I would never join a frat because I respect myself more and when you join the crowd like a sheep they need to make people 'earn' it because so many people want to join. It is social psychology, one person freaks out at a concert then it spreads like fire, over a fire or over a match??? To wrap up, if something is just given away the person who receives it may not love it, but if they loved it and wanted it, they are more inclined to take care of it. So, don't give a $50,000 bmw to a 16 year old, and if you do, don't beat them."