socialism v. capitalism: Rating Options

[illriginal]

lol legitimate ghettos don't even have cable (ghettos become systematic prisons).. much less the luxury of internet service, unless of course you're using dial up.

[batman]

The one thing that bugs me the most is when people simply associate Socialism with Karl Marx. That's Marxism. Not Socialism in its' pure form. Study all the ancient tribes and their "governing" system and you'll discover that majority of the ancients all lived in socialized government.

I agree that Communism and/or Socialism can't be immediately associated with Marx. Since I was the first to briefly bring up Marx, I just want to clarify that I didn't mean to associate him with Socialism. I'm merely using him as a way into understanding Capitalism since he provides a really dense and rather insightful critique on Capitalism.

anyways... back to reading the rest of this thread before posting >.<

[NoSex]

Just about 90% of the things you said about me were wrong.

who cares? if you're out of poverty now, you're an exception to the rule.
what's your point? most of what i said is not only still valid... it's convincing.
not to mention, you sound like a f*cking bourgeois sociopath. what the hell else am i supposed to think when someone says shit like, "anyone can succeed! the american dream is alive in the ghetto!"

[NoSex]

p.s. http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03...evelopment.html

[Kontroll]

Obama is a puppet...
Anyways, Socialism in my opinion is the perfect political and economic system. But it is nearly impossible to have this form of utopia because humans are simply fallible, thus making it hard for socialism to exist in its' purity.

The one thing that bugs me the most is when people simply associate Socialism with Karl Marx. That's Marxism. Not Socialism in its' pure form. Study all the ancient tribes and their "governing" system and you'll discover that majority of the ancients all lived in socialized government.

People also make the mistake of associating socialism with communism. This is also a grave mistake. Some people need to watch the documentaries on Hugo Chavez so they can get a good idea of how Socialism works in real life. Even though Hugo isn't exactly the best candidate, at least he follows the core principles of a socialized nation.

I agree. I believe Obama is a puppet as well. I believe very much that the Bildeberg Group has alot to do with our world economy and how this country is run.

I think that I might have to agree with you. I don't know much about politics, but I'm glad that you brought up humans in this ever debated equation. The system is not perfect, but it's really the people we should look at. We're in a time where people are out to get rich quick and living in a more individualistic society. Socialism, I feel just wouldn't work as of yet.

Yes, Socialism has been connected to some very backwards ideals such as those of Hitler and Karl Marx, but it was the men that drove those societies to the ground.

You know what? I don't even know what I'm talking about. All I know is that Socialism at this point in time wouldn't work.

Nate, do you understand what I'm saying? It seems like the government is going through a transition from capitalism to socialism every year. More and more regulations. Bigger and bigger government. More equality. Am I wrong in this ideology?

[mipadi]

I think that I might have to agree with you. I don't know much about politics, but I'm glad that you brought up humans in this ever debated equation. The system is not perfect, but it's really the people we should look at. We're in a time where people are out to get rich quick and living in a more individualistic society. Socialism, I feel just wouldn't work as of yet.

So why capitalism? Does capitalism work any better when combined with the human element? Is capitalism any less corrupt?

[kryogenix]

I'm glad you brought this up, because I was going to mention this myself. I actually had the pleasure of meeting Ehrenreich last year -- she came to give a talk on these issues. Unlike most of the people posting in this thread (no offense, but it appears to be the truth), Ehrenreich did attempt to live in minimum-wage jobs for several months, and chronicled the "adventure" in her book. Let's just say she wasn't terribly successful.

I still assert the point, too, that the very idea of capitalism undermines the fabric of society. The whole point of humans forming societies was to share limited resources, instead of fighting over them. It's shocking that we've swung the other way and actually encourage Americans to compete with one another over resources, rather than just helping each other out so everyone's life can be a bit better.

I know there are practical reasons why socialist societies can become corrupt, but no one's presented compelling evidence that capitalist societies aren't just as corrupt.

Ehrenreich is full of crap. John Stossel laying the smackdown:

The fact of the matter is, some people just don't deserve things. I'd much rather donate my money to some charity that will do good with the money, than have my taxes go to some crack addict in the spirit of "fairness," when he'll simply buy more drugs. You act as if charity doesn't exist in capitalism either.

I'll read the rest of this later, just wanted to throw that video in the mix.

[mipadi]

Ehrenreich is full of crap. John Stossel laying the smackdown:

John Stossel is pretty full of crap, too.

[kryogenix]

But he's got a ballin moustache.

Check and mate.

[Kontroll]

So why capitalism? Does capitalism work any better when combined with the human element? Is capitalism any less corrupt?

I'm not saying it's the only and best way, but it's worked for the United States for over 200 years. Why the sudden change of feeling? That's really what I want to know.

Just a few quotes to bring up that I found on another forum and some things to discuss:

"rule by corporations is not socialism actually /// privatized gains and socialized losses? NOT socialism"

"Liberals aren't the only ones attempting to flush this nation's freedom down the toilet OP(original poster), have you ever thought that conservatives make bullshit laws which take individual rights away from nonviolent citizens, and somethimes gets them life in prision, just because a conservative says, "THERE SHOULD BE A LAW AGAINST MARIJUANA."

These conservatives are not only taking away our individual rights, but they are also inflicting a light form of facism upon this great nation.
You see, conservatives see something as a "sin" so to change the ideals of these sinners, you use force. Governmental force. This is fascism people!"

"Socialized medicine will provide a higer level of genuine freedom for americans than for-profift medical insurance ever has. The latter system serves to keep people locked in an eternal cycle of servitude that constituts a barrier to one's genuine persuit of happiness."

Discuss.

[mipadi]

I'm not saying it's the only and best way, but it's worked for the United States for over 200 years. Why the sudden change of feeling? That's really what I want to know.

Oh, sure it's worked -- for the bourgeois. Capitalism has done its job of keeping rich white men rich, there's no doubt about that. But the working classes? Capitalism supplies them with just enough to keep them from doing anything drastic about their situation. Plus, the working classes are socialized through education, etc., to believe that they can improve their situation merely by working hard.

[Kontroll]

Oh, sure it's worked -- for the bourgeois. Capitalism has done its job of keeping rich white men rich, there's no doubt about that. But the working classes? Capitalism supplies them with just enough to keep them from doing anything drastic about their situation. Plus, the working classes are socialized through education, etc., to believe that they can improve their situation merely by working hard.

Well, it is true that if you do work hard enough, i.e. get an education and better your situation financially, and know how to manage your assets, you can make a good living. Sure you will still be in the working class, but you can be more than just categorized as 'having enough to keep from doing anything drastic.'

I honestly, don't think that we can blame the government whole heartedly for our situation going on right now, and probably past times. We as a society, I feel, are no longer taking the responsibility for ourselves that we should. We've become accustomed to new programs, and relying on the government for provisions, and I feel that the government is not there to provide, but to protect.

The government shouldn't be worrying about the homeless, or widows, or elderly. That's up to the community to volunteer and come together and provide. Sure that might be a form of socialism, but at least it's not enforced. I feel that over time and through the generations our society has become desensitized and now we've got these ideas that the state should provide for us, and they are through various programs. They shouldn't. The government should protect. That's what laws are for. Protection.

[NoSex]

I feel that the government is not there to provide, but to protect.

i would argue that the provision of certain necessities (i.e. food, shelter, etc.) is a form of protection. without these provisions, human beings cannot survive (or at least, not easily survive). insofar as we have the right to "life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness," don't you think that the governments that are designed to secure these rights should make efforts to see that they are actualized? and, don't you feel that only by fulfilling the lower tiers of maslow's hierarchy can we secure these rights?

[Kontroll]

i would argue that the provision of certain necessities (i.e. food, shelter, etc.) is a form of protection. without these provisions, human beings cannot survive (or at least, not easily survive). insofar as we have the right to "life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness," don't you think that the governments that are designed to secure these rights should make efforts to see that they are actualized? and, don't you feel that only by fulfilling the lower tiers of maslow's hierarchy can we secure these rights?

Considering the fact that he proposed this idea almost fifty years ago, it wouldn't be the best representation of today's society.
Times were different then and self actualization is a different thing these days. In today's world a closed triangle is not a valid representation of society and individuals. An open, wide faced structure is needed in order to reflect that self actualization is never ending. And with this never ending self actualization, individuals can engender lifelong learning, change management, and boundlessness, all important factors for the 1990's educational and managerial environments.

But, to argue your point, I would have to say that self responsibility and not government funding would be the best way to survive in this country. I understand that certain things must be run by the government, especially now considering the vast population. In the past century or so we've gone from a farming nation, to an industrial nation and most of whom were farmers have began working for others instead of providing directly for themselves. Not to say this was a bad shift in culture and society, but its given more room for government to put its foot in the door of privately owned business with regulations, insurance and so forth.

That's all I got for now. Discuss.

[Uronacid]

if you're out of poverty now, you're an exception to the rule.

Just like the poor individuals who's lives have just completely f*cked them over are an exception to my own. I'm not saying Capitalism is perfect Nate. People do fall through the holes, however socialism would need to be restructured before I was ever able to accept it. I see people in my shitty slum of a neighborhood living off the government all the time. These are people who could and should contribute to society by having a job of some sort, but they don't look for a job because the gov't gives them far more than what it nessesary to survive. Instead they stop taking care of themselves and rely on the goverment to bail them out of their incompitance. It's downright unfair to the working class.

So why capitalism? Does capitalism work any better when combined with the human element? Is capitalism any less corrupt?

Because it's not controlled by anyone one thing, and it's monitored to keep it that way. The bottom line, there is no single point of failure.

Socialism, while it paves the way for everyone, it rewards those who are lazy slobs with no ambition to succeed. There is plenty of opportunity for people to succeed in this country under capitalism. While there are exceptions to to anything and capitalism isn't without flaws. It's been successful for the past century. Why should we change it? While I'm sure you could point out several reasons this country was founded on capitalism and became the greatest country in the world because of it. The pros for capitalism far outweigh the cons.

Take health care for example, while everyone seems to insist on pushing nationalized health care they don't see effect of doing so. Doctors who see patients in a nationalized health care system are paid the same regardless of quality of service. Incentive to become a better doctor is stifled. Patients receive service that is not as good, development of medical research is slowed down as a result of reduced private funding, etc... When you take "competition" out of an industry it becomes less productive, and in this case more people inevitably die as a result.

[shoryuken]

Just like the poor individuals who's lives have just completely f*cked them over are an exception to my own. I'm not saying Capitalism is perfect Nate. People do fall through the holes, however socialism would need to be restructured before I was ever able to accept it. I see people in my shitty slum of a neighborhood living off the government all the time. These are people who could and should contribute to society by having a job of some sort, but they don't look for a job because the gov't gives them far more than what it nessesary to survive. Instead they stop taking care of themselves and rely on the goverment to bail them out of their incompitance. It's downright unfair to the working class.Because it's not controlled by anyone one thing, and it's monitored to keep it that way. The bottom line, there is no single point of failure.

Socialism, while it paves the way for everyone, it rewards those who are lazy slobs with no ambition to succeed. There is plenty of opportunity for people to succeed in this country under capitalism. While there are exceptions to to anything and capitalism isn't without flaws. It's been successful for the past century. Why should we change it? While I'm sure you could point out several reasons this country was founded on capitalism and became the greatest country in the world because of it. The pros for capitalism far outweigh the cons.

Take health care for example, while everyone seems to insist on pushing nationalized health care they don't see effect of doing so. Doctors who see patients in a nationalized health care system are paid the same regardless of quality of service. Incentive to become a better doctor is stifled. Patients receive service that is not as good, development of medical research is slowed down as a result of reduced private funding, etc... When you take "competition" out of an industry it becomes less productive, and in this case more people inevitably die as a result.

not aalll ppl lyke dat foo..

[Uronacid]

not aalll ppl lyke dat foo..

Everyone knows not all people are like that. Next time, read what's been said before you comment.

I see people in my shitty slum of a neighborhood living off the government all the time.

Those are the people I'm referring to; not all people.

[Tung]

o shiet.... harryy potta callin u out princee...

gogo..

[shoryuken]

^i got this.. WATCH

Everyone knows not all people are like that. Next time, read what's been said before you comment.
Those are the people I'm referring to; not all people.

you ever thought the ppl living in the slum not all bums?

COM ON BEECH... aintt gitt alll daii..

LIT GO..

[Uronacid]

Again, you need to read.

[shoryuken]

I see people in my shitty slum of a neighborhood living off the government all the time.

Again, you need to read.

check yourself bitch..

P.S u lil gurl.. y log outt.. i hatt dat shiet.. log out suu u kan thenk of sum shiet da post latur.. n i gotta logg bak en n post bak.. y nott juss talkk rite now..

[Uronacid]

You're a waste of time.

[shoryuken]

PFFT

[Uronacid]

You're a waste of time.

[shoryuken]

pfft