UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE., just because everyone else does it... Rating Options

[NoSex]

so, why the f*ck don't we have universal healthcare?

[kryogenix]

Because you touch yourself at night.

/thread

[FizzyMilk]

I don't think everyone should have it...
it wouldn't really be free..we'll just pay for it through taxes. and you know what universal health care means.... Mexicans in the U.S. get it too...The ones that aren't legal..and you'll be paying for it. I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay for health care for an illegal immigrant. and no offense to Mexicans because I know many hardworking Mexicans that came here illegally, but are now legal
....and it's not just Mexicans and other people that come here illegally, it's the smokers and the alcoholics and the other people that do harmful things to their bodies. You'll be paying for their "free" health care.

Call me mean, call me heartless..I don't think I'm being to mean, am I? I think the cons outweigh the pros..

also...How many doctor-to-be's will there actually be once there's universal health care? There wont be many. I bet they'll get paid less. And there are only so many Doctors to begin with. There's no way we could have universal health care without jeopardizing so much else. There will probably be longer waits..(and I don't mean just a few hours) and Patients will probably be treated poorly.

I don't think it's a good idea...and if Obama decides to do it he should at least make it so not everyone has it..only the people that really truly need it..but that would also cause problems because people will start to lie and say this and that and blah blah blah..that's just too much to deal with. It would be extremely difficult to get it because they'll have to sort out the dishonest people from the people that truly truly need it.

[NoSex]

1. we already pay for illegal immigrants, if we didn't we wouldn't have emergency clinics.
2. generally, a universal care service would only be available to citizens. so, no, illegal immigrants would not receive it. for example, the current bill being proposed has a provision which explicitly excludes illegal citizens from receiving coverage under the public program.
3. over a ten year plan, we would need to raise taxes only of those persons making $280,000 or more a year. & of joint incomes ranging between $350,000-500,000 only a 1% surtax will be applied. those making over one million dollars a year will be taxed the maxim surtax, 5%.
4. if we don't control the cost of healthcare now, we will be paying more for it later: over the last decade, healthcare premiums have doubled &, even further, the growth of healthcare costs have risen above the growth of GDP.
5. you sort of are being heartless; some of us think that decent healthcare is a human right.
6. doctors will be paid less, but as doctors are already handsomely compensated for their work, they will still maintain a position of tremendous comfort. best of all, they will finally be able to do their job, without having to wait for approval from an insurance industry. doctors go to school to help people, not to make money --- or at least, that's the way it should be.
7. in america, we wait longer for services than people in germany and in france (both of which have universal healthcare).
8. the world health organization has ranked the quality of america's healthcare as 37. this means that the WHO has identified that there are 36 systems currently operating @ a higher quality than our own system. a vast majority of those systems have a fully integrated single-payer system, including france, norway, germany, and italy.

[coconutter]

less town hall meetings more healthcare reform plx

[colddesert]

^ Regardless of the debate, there is nothing wrong with the town hall meetings, in my opinion. Why shouldn't we listen to the people's thoughts on the bill? I don't think we should pass such a monumental bill as universal health care without hearing what people think. I mean, Congress didn't even read the bill fully, did they????

[NoSex]

there is nothing wrong with the town hall meetings, in my opinion.

apparently you haven't actually seen one of these town hall meetings; they're just a bunch of ignorant and ill-mannered drones barking @ people who are trying to formulate a legitimate dialogue on the matter. they aren't expanding discussion, they are squashing it. to put it more succinctly, there is nothing productive about hissing and booing.

[FizzyMilk]

1. we already pay for illegal immigrants, if we didn't we wouldn't have emergency clinics.
2. generally, a universal care service would only be available to citizens. so, no, illegal immigrants would not receive it. for example, the current bill being proposed has a provision which explicitly excludes illegal citizens from receiving coverage under the public program.
3. over a ten year plan, we would need to raise taxes only of those persons making $280,000 or more a year. & of joint incomes ranging between $350,000-500,000 only a 1% surtax will be applied. those making over one million dollars a year will be taxed the maxim surtax, 5%.
4. if we don't control the cost of healthcare now, we will be paying more for it later: over the last decade, healthcare premiums have doubled &, even further, the growth of healthcare costs have risen above the growth of GDP.
5. you sort of are being heartless; some of us think that decent healthcare is a human right.
6. doctors will be paid less, but as doctors are already handsomely compensated for their work, they will still maintain a position of tremendous comfort. best of all, they will finally be able to do their job, without having to wait for approval from an insurance industry. doctors go to school to help people, not to make money --- or at least, that's the way it should be.
7. in america, we wait longer for services than people in germany and in france (both of which have universal healthcare).
8. the world health organization has ranked the quality of america's healthcare as 37. this means that the WHO has identified that there are 36 systems currently operating @ a higher quality than our own system. a vast majority of those systems have a fully integrated single-payer system, including france, norway, germany, and italy.

Obama wants to make all illegal immigrants legal...did I mention that?

and I don't wait long for services.
The only problem I have ever had is finding a doctor that will take my insurance that wasn't 30 miles away, but I lived in a small town, now I don't. now that's not a problem.
I just don't go to waterman hospital...because after that merge they just aren't that great anymore. XD



"5. you sort of are being heartless; some of us think that decent healthcare is a human right."
DECENT health care, yes...not free. I don't think it should be free, because NOTHING it technically free, we'll still have to pay for it. and you really think the upper class people will get the get a tax raise? REALLY? I think they JUST NOW started having to pay as much as the middle and lower class people..and they're COMPLAINING...at least in my town they are, they have their protests and what not. The middle and lower class families will get stuck with the tax increase because that's just how it is.

[kryogenix]

less town hall meetings more healthcare reform plx

Remember guys, dissenting opinions are healthy for a functioning democracy unless you disagree with me.

[penpen15]

Obama wants to make all illegal immigrants legal...did I mention that?

and I don't wait long for services.
The only problem I have ever had is finding a doctor that will take my insurance that wasn't 30 miles away, but I lived in a small town, now I don't. now that's not a problem.
I just don't go to waterman hospital...because after that merge they just aren't that great anymore. XD
"5. you sort of are being heartless; some of us think that decent healthcare is a human right."
DECENT health care, yes...not free. I don't think it should be free, because NOTHING it technically free, we'll still have to pay for it. and you really think the upper class people will get the get a tax raise? REALLY? I think they JUST NOW started having to pay as much as the middle and lower class people..and they're COMPLAINING...at least in my town they are, they have their protests and what not. The middle and lower class families will get stuck with the tax increase because that's just how it is.

Obama wants to give illegal immigrants OPPORTUNITES to become legal, by taking the test and yadda yadda to gain citizenship. It's not like he's walking around with citizenship papers tossing them at any immigrant that comes his way. This way we'll have legal people who can contribute to society, and taxes, and their communities, which will end up helping America rather then what's going on now with all the illegals hurting her.

Where are you getting your services when you don't have to wait long? When I sliced my thumb on a carving knife and went to the hospital, it took 6 hours for the doctor to finally put 3 stitches in, and the bill came out to a total of 617 dollars.

You say that healthcare shouldn't be free, well why not? Out of anything in the world Healthcare should be the only thing that's free. If your own government does not care enough about it's citizens to protect their health then just how messed up is that?

The reason Middle Class America has been taxed for so long is because of Bush in term cut taxes from the rich. He cut back on the taxes that the rich have to pay, while the ones who are broke as hell had to pay more taxes. And also, please please please dont ever think that "that's just how it is" People can change things, if you don't believe it then look at slavery, i bet back when that was still around slaves thought that that was just the way it was and when women couldn't vote we thought that was just the way it was. If you aren't don't care to get angry enough to fix it, then it's always going to stay the same.

[kryogenix]

1. we already pay for illegal immigrants, if we didn't we wouldn't have emergency clinics.
2. generally, a universal care service would only be available to citizens. so, no, illegal immigrants would not receive it. for example, the current bill being proposed has a provision which explicitly excludes illegal citizens from receiving coverage under the public program.

...In theory. In practice? They'll get it.

3. over a ten year plan, we would need to raise taxes only of those persons making $280,000 or more a year. & of joint incomes ranging between $350,000-500,000 only a 1% surtax will be applied. those making over one million dollars a year will be taxed the maxim surtax, 5%.

ahahahahaha tax increases. why not avoiding spending in the first place?

4. if we don't control the cost of healthcare now, we will be paying more for it later: over the last decade, healthcare premiums have doubled &, even further, the growth of healthcare costs have risen above the growth of GDP.

Agreed. But what's the reason for this?

Government involvement. And you want to give them more control?

5. you sort of are being heartless; some of us think that decent healthcare is a human right.

You are definitely being heartless. You're going to advertise universal healthcare, then deny people because it has to be rationed.

6. doctors will be paid less, but as doctors are already handsomely compensated for their work, they will still maintain a position of tremendous comfort. best of all, they will finally be able to do their job, without having to wait for approval from an insurance industry. doctors go to school to help people, not to make money --- or at least, that's the way it should be.

Who are you to decide what people's wages should be?

7. in america, we wait longer for services than people in germany and in france (both of which have universal healthcare).

What's the population of Germany and France vs the population of the United States?

What about beloved Canada with their healthcare system, which has a lower population than California? Why do Canadians come to the US to avoid lines for services?

Also, France's healthcare system is going bankrupt. The last thing we need in this economy is yet another unsustainable government program. We still have Social Security on our plate.

8. the world health organization has ranked the quality of america's healthcare as 37. this means that the WHO has identified that there are 36 systems currently operating @ a higher quality than our own system. a vast majority of those systems have a fully integrated single-payer system, including france, norway, germany, and italy.

And I believe if we allowed the free market to work, the US could have the best and most free healthcare system.

[datass]

man, i forgot what the heath care system is like here, but we have to take these illegal immigrants from china and let them give birth to their babies etc. that's just annoying.

[Uronacid]

One of the biggest reasons I worry about Public Health care is the success record of our government right now:

• Social Security is turning to shit.
• USPS is going bankrupt due to the gov't meddling in its business affairs.
• Medicare is going down the tubes.
• Cash for Clunkers, while it saved many people lots of money, was a total nightmare in terms of money management.

I really don't want a government run system. I don't have faith in our government, and our current system that is private is working. It's our private health care system that pushes technologies to it's limits, because there is profit in doing so. I know it's not perfect, but it is better.

Even the liberal media is pushing stories that criticize a public health care system. that scares the hell out of me: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8227482 The news rarely speaks bad about what Obama's pushing for.

[pandemonium]

so what is obama's proposition?, i see this crazy shit on the new about the town hall meetings but i don't really now what he is proposing

[Uronacid]

so what is obama's proposition?, i see this crazy shit on the new about the town hall meetings but i don't really now what he is proposing

He is proposing a government run health care system. It's another 1000+ page bill that barely anyone has read, and is being forced down the throats of congress. Many people are comparing it to Canada's gov't run health care system as they are our neighbors.

[NoSex]

He is proposing a government run health care system. It's another 1000+ page bill that barely anyone has read, and is being forced down the throats of congress. Many people are comparing it to Canada's gov't run health care system as they are our neighbors.

that's a really misleading and non-descriptive presentation of the obama proposal; the plan is for a public option, designed to compete with the private industry. there is no overhaul of the system in this bill, it merely proposes a government controlled insurance option. the option in question will not even receive, after a start-up, unusual government subsidies. it is simply a public option for insurance, one of which you will purchase (if you choose to use it), much like a private plan. in fact, it will operate almost exactly like a private insurance, it will simply be more efficient (due to decreased administration), and have more affordable/accessible plans (i.e. coverage for persons will pre-existing conditions). the proposal will be paid for by a surtax applied to higher wage earning families--for example, those families making $350,000-500,000 a year will received a 1% surtax. the highest tier earners, those making a million dollars or more a year, will receive a 5.4% surtax.

[kryogenix]

in fact, it will operate almost exactly like a private insurance, it will simply be more efficient (due to decreased administration)

how can you say that with a straight face?

Just like how the post office is more efficient than UPS and FedEx right?

[queen]

i don't want to pay a 1% surtax ;| -whines-

[NoSex]

Just like how the post office is more efficient than UPS and FedEx right?

1. in the sense that the public option will get more work done, for less money, it's more efficient; that's what efficiency is. the private industry may be able to provide services @ a marginally faster pace, but, still, @ a great price.
2. the public option will actually run more smoothly than insurance; i mean, have you ever actually dealt with a private insurance agency? for one, the public option will have normalized plans, so all the plans will cover the same procedures, without questions concerning previous conditions, age, current health, etc. etc. private industry, on the other hand, pays much money to deny care to its costumers, this results in a lot of wasted dollars and much bureaucracy. much of that bureaucracy will be eliminated in the private option.
3. you can't argue that the public option will take the private industry out of competition while @ the same time arguing that the public option will provide poor quality care; such an argument is contradictory. notice that, despite the fact that many people us the usps, private industries compete within the same exact market.
4. i've never had a serious problem with the usps. nonetheless, as goes consumer approval, government run programs like medicare and medicaid have higher ratings, in comparison to private insurance providers, considering quality of service.

[kryogenix]

1. in the sense that the public option will get more work done, for less money, it's more efficient; that's what efficiency is. the private industry may be able to provide services @ a marginally faster pace, but, still, @ a great price.

By what type of sorcery will this be achieved?

2. the public option will actually run more smoothly than insurance; i mean, have you ever actually dealt with a private insurance agency? for one, the public option will have normalized plans, so all the plans will cover the same procedures, without questions concerning previous conditions, age, current health, etc. etc. private industry, on the other hand, pays much money to deny care to its costumers, this results in a lot of wasted dollars and much bureaucracy. much of that bureaucracy will be eliminated in the private option.

Why can they do this? Because it's subsidized by taxpayers. There is no motivation to be efficient because they know they can just dig deeper into the pockets of taxpayers/create more debt/inflate our currency to pay for their scheme.

And I call bullshit on the last part. The government will deny care too, adding more bureaucracy when deciding how to ration care.

3. you can't argue that the public option will take the private industry out of competition while @ the same time arguing that the public option will provide poor quality care; such an argument is contradictory. notice that, despite the fact that many people us the usps, private industries compete within the same exact market.

Sure I can. Look at what happened with mail delivery. USPS has shitty service, yet USPS has a monopoly on first class mail.

The government will regulate and regulate and regulate to put everyone else out of business. In fact, government regulation is part of the reason why healthcare is so expensive in the first place.

4. i've never had a serious problem with the usps. nonetheless, as goes consumer approval, government run programs like medicare and medicaid have higher ratings, in comparison to private insurance providers, considering quality of service.

Don't take my word for it, ask our President what he thinks about USPS.

Medicaid and medicare are broke. Even Obama admits that medicare and medicaid will bankrupt this country. Except for some reason, he thinks that the solution to problematic government run insurance programs is adding more problematic government run insurance programs.

[coffeeandacasio]

At has nothing to do with immigrants, taxes, etc.

Look at it this way.

The people who don't want universal healthcare are typically rich or heard from a congress person all the negatives.
Look who's convincing you!
Someone who will be able to afford healthcare no matter what.
If you made 65,000$ a year, a simple procedure could cut that in half without universal healthcare.
So what if you pay a little more taxes. No one complains for the services like free fire and police that they pay for that hardly works.
Paying a little bit in taxes does not even compare to a $30,000 procedure you'd have to pay for.

[kryogenix]

At has nothing to do with immigrants, taxes, etc.

Look at it this way.

The people who don't want universal healthcare are typically rich or heard from a congress person all the negatives.
Look who's convincing you!
Someone who will be able to afford healthcare no matter what.
If you made 65,000$ a year, a simple procedure could cut that in half without universal healthcare.
So what if you pay a little more taxes. No one complains for the services like free fire and police that they pay for that hardly works.
Paying a little bit in taxes does not even compare to a $30,000 procedure you'd have to pay for.

The people who want universal healthcare are typically jobless deadbeats or liberal elites who won't even use the system they are advocating (kinda like the hypocrites who tout public education, and then send their kids to elite private schools).
Look who's convincing you!
If you made 65,000$ a year, a simple procedure could cut that in half without private insurance.
So what if you pay a little more insurance premiums. No one complains for the services like fire insurance and home insurance that they pay for that hardly works.
Paying a little bit in private insurance does not even compare to a $30,000 procedure you'd have to pay for.

[Uronacid]

that's a really misleading and non-descriptive presentation of the obama proposal; the plan is for a public option, designed to compete with the private industry. there is no overhaul of the system in this bill, it merely proposes a government controlled insurance option. the option in question will not even receive, after a start-up, unusual government subsidies. it is simply a public option for insurance, one of which you will purchase (if you choose to use it), much like a private plan. in fact, it will operate almost exactly like a private insurance, it will simply be more efficient (due to decreased administration), and have more affordable/accessible plans (i.e. coverage for persons will pre-existing conditions). the proposal will be paid for by a surtax applied to higher wage earning families--for example, those families making $350,000-500,000 a year will received a 1% surtax. the highest tier earners, those making a million dollars or more a year, will receive a 5.4% surtax.

Government options have obvious and unfair competitive advantages over privately own businesses that cause them to go out of business. More jobs will be lost than created. A government option will suffocate private insurance companies.

It's laughable to see you suggest that they're more efficient due to decreased administration. Gov't is notorious for having to much administrative staff.

I don't support taking from people who work hard for their salary and giving it to those who don't deserve it.

1. in the sense that the public option will get more work done, for less money, it's more efficient; that's what efficiency is. the private industry may be able to provide services @ a marginally faster pace, but, still, @ a great price.

LOL

The people who want universal healthcare are typically jobless deadbeats or liberal elites who won't even use the system they are advocating (kinda like the hypocrites who tout public education, and then send their kids to elite private schools).
Look who's convincing you!
If you made 65,000$ a year, a simple procedure could cut that in half without private insurance.
So what if you pay a little more insurance premiums. No one complains for the services like fire insurance and home insurance that they pay for that hardly works.
Paying a little bit in private insurance does not even compare to a $30,000 procedure you'd have to pay for.

I don't think I could have said this better myself. Haha.

[NoSex]

Government options have obvious and unfair competitive advantages over privately own businesses that cause them to go out of business. More jobs will be lost than created. A government option will suffocate private insurance companies.

It's laughable to see you suggest that they're more efficient due to decreased administration. Gov't is notorious for having to much administrative staff.

you can't have your cake and eat it too. either the government option is awesome, and the private industry won't be able to compete. or it sucks, and the private industry will be able to compete. you can't have the government option suck balls and then put the private industry out of business.

secondly, the government option will have NO UNUSUAL GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES AFTER INITIAL START-UP! IT WILL OPERATE ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE A PRIVATE INSURANCE FIRM. read the f*cking thread, educate yourself.

lastly, WE HAVE THE MOST f*ckING EXPENSIVE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. ALL OTHER GOVERNMENT RUN SYSTEMS ARE CHEAPER (I.E. MORE EFFICIENT) AND MOST HAVE EQUITABLE OR GREATER QUALITY RATINGS (ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION) THAN THE U.S.A.

I don't support taking from people who work hard for their salary and giving it to those who don't deserve it.

wait, sort of like significantly paying people less than the value of a product that THEY produce?

not to mention, SOME PEOPLE CAN'T f*ckING AFFORD INSURANCE YOU f*ckING DICK HEAD! THE SHIT IS EXPENSIVE! THAT'S THE f*ckING PROBLEM! even worse, SOME PEOPLE CAN'T EVEN f*ckING GET IT EVEN IF THEY f*ckING WANTED TO BECAUSE THEY WERE f*ckING BORN WITH CANCER OR ARE DECLARED TO HAVE A "PRE-EXISTING CONDITION!"

are you f*cking telling me that people who are born with ailments don't "deserve" healthcare? death panels much?

[NoSex]

p.s. the issue is finding a healthcare system that is best for everyone, and best for the country. that's the primary concern. not whether or not we have to raise taxes. personally, i have enough dedication to this country to want to see my taxes raised for a good cause. we are a society, a unit, a civilization that is designed to function together towards progress. it's good that we have a public school system, so that everyone has the opportunity to be educated. it's good that we have roads so that transportation can be made possible. it's good that we have a military so that our country can be defended. IF YOU PUT THE INDIVIDUAL BEFORE THE SOCIETY YOU LOSE ALL OF THIS. so the question is this: is the moral precedent so great that you would not collect taxes in order to give everyone a free public education? would you not collect taxes to build roads? would you not collect taxes to defend your homeland? would you not collect taxes to make your country healthier & happier?