ABORTION VERSION TWO Options

[sadolakced acid]

yea, someone head to the other one and close it.

i'm going to lay down a few ground rules here.

1- i don't care what your stance is, and no one else does either

2- use logic and facts to try to convince us to believe something. it's called a debate not a disorganized rumble.

3- be civil. a lot of you seem to have problems with this.

4- no links, unless neccisary. no quoting outside sources over a paragraph. USE YOUR OWN WORDS. if i don't care what you think about it, why would i care what someone else thinks? and really. stop using other people's arguements.

alright. and you know, keeping your posts short isn't a bad thing either.

so, the set up:

should abortion be made illegal in the united states

[smoke]

obvious to whom?

it must be scientifically proven.

people on antidepressants are more likely to commit suicide. does this mean antidepressants don't work?

unless a scientific study is done, you cannot draw these assumptions.

Did you even read the article? Please define what you think a scientific study is. That was a scientific study, not assumptions.

If people on antidepressants are more likely to commit suicide, there's obviously something wrong with the medication, wouldn't you say? And I don't understand where you're going with that statement anyway. It has nothing to do with anything I or that article have stated. Please explain.

So you'd rather keep the child, even if you couldn't afford it? Even if you knew it would have a miserable life? A woman has the right to have power over her own body, don't you think? And if you do have a child, your education will be pretty much over. Because you'd have to quit school to take care of the baby. There are people who care about education. And let's face it, many people have sex before they're ready for a child. It's not a perfect world, as you said..

I can't see into the future. How can I, or anyone know the child would have a miserable life? It's impossible. There are many many many people who have had single teenage mothers and have risen above and lead wonderful lives. Even a lot of athletes and celebrities. It gave them a reason to want to overcome and per sue their dreams. It's a natural human instinct to want to thrive and get better and better.

Yes, I do think woman has the right to have power over her own body. She has a choice of what she does with her body. She chose to use her body and have sex before she was able to support a child. Is that the child's fault? I don't think the mother has the right to deny a child of living because of her mistake. After all, the fetus is not her body. It's inside her, growing, but it's not her. And, actually, at my school this year 5 girls were pregnant (I know, everybody jokes that our school is a breeding ground) and they only left school for a few months to have the baby and recover. All 5 of them are returning to school next year. They just had to make up work in summer school and summer school's a push over. Their family looks after the baby when they are away. I don't see a problem with that. After all, they are a family. My brothers and sisters had to take care of me when I was young and my parents were at work. I don't get your idea that they have to quit school.

[AngelinaTaylor]

I can't see into the future. How can I, or anyone know the child would have a miserable life? It's impossible. There are many many many people who have had single teenage mothers and have risen above and lead wonderful lives. Even a lot of athletes and celebrities. It gave them a reason to want to overcome and per sue their dreams. It's a natural human instinct to want to thrive and get better and better.

Yes, I do think woman has the right to have power over her own body. She has a choice of what she does with her body. She chose to use her body and have sex before she was able to support a child. Is that the child's fault? I don't think the mother has the right to deny a child of living because of her mistake. After all, the fetus is not her body. It's inside her, growing, but it's not her. And, actually, at my school this year 5 girls were pregnant (I know, everybody jokes that our school is a breeding ground) and they only left school for a few months to have the baby and recover. All 5 of them are returning to school next year. They just had to make up work in summer school and summer school's a push over. Their family looks after the baby when they are away. I don't see a problem with that. After all, they are a family. My brothers and sisters had to take care of me when I was young and my parents were at work. I don't get your idea that they have to quit school.

Well, how can you KNOW that the baby will have a wonderful life if the mother can't even support herself financially? And if the father isn't there? (which, by the way, happens more often than you think, when a teen mother gets pregnat) It's tough growing up without a father, you know. And it's a very bad idea to have a child when YOU're still a child yourself. That's the worst thing I can think of. It's not right. But guess what - she's already done the mistake. There's no going back. And most people learn from their mistakes.

If the woman has the right to have power over her own body, it's her choice whether to have an abortion or not. You can't place a fetus' "rights" above a woman's. Whether she's made the mistake - it doesn't matter. It's not wrong to keep the baby, but it's also not wrong to have an abortion. We're people, and people make mistakes. I hope you know that. It's not an ideal life.

I know three girls who got pregnat and decided to have the baby. All three dropped out of school. You wanna know what they're doing now? One of them is cleaner at a school, the other one doesn't have a job, and the third one lives in a small village and as far as I know, she doesn't have a job either. Of course, all three love their kids, but you have no idea how hard it's been for them, especially without a father. Needless to say, they're not happy. It doesn't always happen, but it does sometimes.

And why should a single mother have a baby she doesn't want? Especially if she's been raped. There are reasons why abortion is legal in most places. Those people there aren't idiots, most of them.

[smoke]

I feel that you're an idealist trying to woo the staunch, immobile realists that dwell in this forum, iRock cB..

In that endeavor you're bound to fail.

Well unfortunately, forza, you've fallen victim to the "judge others before you know them" trait. Unlike you, I do not see this as a battle of wits. I'm not trying to "woo" anyone, especially on a pathetic online forum with people who I will most likely never meet. You people's opinion means pretty much nothing to me, but I still am respectful and read what you have to say, just as you should with what I have to say. These are my ideas and my opinions that I express. There is no way to "fail" in that. Just because you disagree with my idea doesn't make it wrong or right because, frankly, who are you? You're a nobody to me, as I probably am to you. I actually pity the fact that you see this as some kind of battle that can only result in victory or failure. We're merely just stating our opinions in an intelligent manner. If you have nothing more intelligent to post then the ignorance you have just posted, I suggest you stay out. Please, don't waste our time.

Well, how can you KNOW that the baby will have a wonderful life if the mother can't even support herself financially? And if the father isn't there? (which, by the way, happens more often than you think, when a teen mother gets pregnat) It's tough growing up without a father, you know. And it's a very bad idea to have a child when YOU're still a child yourself. That's the worst thing I can think of. It's not right. But guess what - she's already done the mistake. There's no going back. And most people learn from their mistakes.

If the woman has the right to have power over her own body, it's her choice whether to have an abortion or not. You can't place a fetus' "rights" above a woman's. Whether she's made the mistake - it doesn't matter. It's not wrong to keep the baby, but it's also not wrong to have an abortion. We're people, and people make mistakes. I hope you know that. It's not an ideal life.

I know three girls who got pregnat and decided to have the baby. All three dropped out of school. You wanna know what they're doing now? One of them is cleaner at a school, the other one doesn't have a job, and the third one lives in a small village and as far as I know, she doesn't have a job either. Of course, all three love their kids, but you have no idea how hard it's been for them, especially without a father. Needless to say, they're not happy. It doesn't always happen, but it does sometimes.

See, now you impress me. You actually think things through before you say anything. But, I must take the opposing side on this one, haha. The only thing is that you keep repeating things that you have already said and I have already answered. Please try and come up with something new. To me, you're just reiterating because you have run out of an argument.

You see, the way you said "when you know the child will have a miserable life" in your previous post to me, I took that as if you were saying that EVERY child will have a miserable life. And now your statement "how can you KNOW that the baby will have a wonderful life," is the same thing. I can ask the question "how do you KNOW it won't?" That will get us nowhere, so it's basically pointless. I'd hope that you would agree with me that there is no way to know. So, I ask you, would you rather give the child a chance to over come, or no chance at all? No chance to per sue life. You (and I don't mean you personally) cut the child down by never giving it a chance. Which is better: Hope or no hope. If nobody had hope and never gave anyone a chance, we would not get very far in life as an individual or as a society. I agree that it's not a good idea to have a child when you are a child yourself, but it's not the baby's fault, now is it? Why should she take it's life? Give it up for adoption.

As I have already said at least 3 times already, and explained to several people I know in real life, the fetus is not PART of the woman's body. It is only growing inside her. The child is it's own being. If a fetus is "part" of a woman's body, they would have the same DNA. A "part" of a body is defined by its having the same DNA as other parts. You might argue that the child is dependant on the mother, so it has to be part of her body. Not true. If you or I get into a terrible car accident and are dependent on the life support system, does that make us part of the machine? Not at all. If the child was a part of the woman, then in the case that a pregnant mother dies, the child would die also. Not so. A fetus can survive without it's mothers support for a while. It would die eventually, yet, but you or I would also die without any food supply.

So, now we have established that the child is not part of the mothers body.

I agree with you. The woman does indeed have the right to have power over her own body. But guess what? The child is not part of her body, therefore, she has no power to choose if it lives or not. I obviously already know that we're people, and people make mistakes and that it's not an ideal life as I have already made a statement almost exactly similar to that. But does that mean that woman should take her mistake out on the child? If I decide to get drunk and go get in a car and nearly kill myself and others by getting in an accident, should I blame the beer company for selling the beer and sue them?

Ok, so you know those three girls. I've very sorry for them, but the 5 girls I know went back to school, so what's your point? It was their choice not to go back to school, not the child's. I admire those 3 girls you know for not having an abortion. So, I wonder, what's their view on abortion? Why, if they knew that everything would go wrong in their life and they would be unhappy, did they choose not to have an abortion? Why did they chose to sacrifice their lives to give their children a chance at their own life? I challenge you to ask them that. I'm sure you'd get an interesting response.

And why should a single mother have a baby she doesn't want? Especially if she's been raped. There are reasons why abortion is legal in most places. Those people there aren't idiots, most of them.

Ok, I'm sorry, but this is a very ignorant statement. Often times I find myself not wanting my little sister. Does that give me the right to kill her? Sometimes I don't feel like dealing with my dog. Does that mean I should kill him? So, basically, you're saying if someone doesn't "want" something, they can just kill it off or get rid of it in some form. One word: Adoption. If the woman does not want to keep the child that she had because of rape, she can put it up for adoption. It solves both issues. In the end, the woman does not have the child and the child still gets a chance at life. It's a win win situation.

Sorry for the long post. There was a lot to cover, haha. I tried to shorten it as much as possible.

[forza]

Well unfortunately, forza, you've fallen victim to the "judge others before you know them" trait. Unlike you, I do not see this as a battle of wits. I'm not trying to "woo" anyone, especially on a pathetic online forum with people who I will most likely never meet. You people's opinion means pretty much nothing to me, but I still am respectful and read what you have to say, just as you should with what I have to say. These are my ideas and my opinions that I express. There is no way to "fail" in that. Just because you disagree with my idea doesn't make it wrong or right because, frankly, who are you? You're a nobody to me, as I probably am to you. I actually pity the fact that you see this as some kind of battle that can only result in victory or failure. We're merely just stating our opinions in an intelligent manner. If you have nothing more intelligent to post then the ignorance you have just posted, I suggest you stay out. Please, don't waste our time.

Look, don't get your panties in a twist. All I was getting at is that you're not going to be able to persuade people who have realized that this 'debate' is pointless. You want to stay here and beat up the dead horse and spew out your 'opinions' all over the walls, then be my lousy guest; that's your choke.

But don't attack me personally. Not now, not ever. That's rule #5 up there in the stickies, I suggest you read them.

Thank you, and f**k off.

[smoke]

please respond to that.

anyways, i get the feeling you have no idea what it's like to raise a child, let alone as a single mother without a job.

is your school... moderately affluent? these girls who get pregnant, thier parents have jobs that pay alright?

i'm not trying to justify anything right now, so don't worry. i'm just questioning your reasoning.

iRock cB, you should be trying to woo people. it's the whole point of this forum. this isn't a place to just express your opinions and let others read them. we're not merely stating our opinions- if you had bothered to read over the first post, you would notice that.

you may do well to go back and read it now.

Sorry Acid, I forgot to respond to that. It was late, lol. I know, I wasn't able to find the source either but I know that article is posted around numerous web sites and news sites that don't have anything to do with abortion, so it's likely that the site didn't pull it out of the sky. I'd be happy to see if I can find the sources and put them up later.

Ok, I see what you mean with the antidepressants, but, again, what's that got to do with abortion? Give me parallels. I'm sorry if it's obvious to you, but I can't find the similarity.

Do you know what it's like to raise a child? If you don't, then why even ask that? It's quite hypocritical if you haven't. And I do have a younger sister that I have helped raise my whole life, in a sense. When my parents go to work, I had to look after her and I fed her, changed her, and woke up when she did most of the time because her room was right next to mine, lol. My sister, as I've said before, had her baby at 16 and she is a single mom and for a long while, had no job. Now my family is not rich at all but we still did the best we could to raise him, and we still try our best even today. She lives in Florida now though. She got her GED, which is the exact same as getting a high school diploma, and she went to college. Now she's a dental assistant making great money. So no, I guess I don't know what raising a child all by myself is like, but I most certainly know a lot about it.

No, my school is far from affluent. It's one of the poorest schools in the county and state. My county is all farm lands. It's quite a poor county. :\ I think one of the girls, Lakiva, has parents with a pretty good pay, but I can't be positive. I never had a class with her, so I don't know her that well.

And don't worry, I'm not worried.

I did indeed read the first post and nowhere in that do I see where we're trying to "woo" people in the manner that forza suggested. Especially number 1. I don't think it's me you need to be telling to read the first post.

It clearly says Should abortion be illegal in the United States, not Bulgaria. Oh, also number 3 for others.

I'm sorry, but there was no need for that. That's personal, and you shouldn't bring your emotions into a debate. I really don't care what you think about my "thinking skills".

And I don't care what you think about mine. I just thought I'd say something nice, because you seem to be getting a little frustrated. Not saying you are, that's just how it appears.

I never said you didn't base my arguments on what I've said, but when I have already answered something and you go right back and say it again, that gets old fast and makes me think you're desperate to find an argument. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are, but that's just how it comes across.

I never said you were stupid. Did you even comprehend what I said? Ok, let me ask the saaamme thing, again. How can you KNOW that the baby will have a miserable life, as opposed to a wonderful life? It will get us nowhere. When I was younger. I had to wear the same clothes my older siblings wore and we drove around in a truck with half a floor board because it was rusted out and we lived in a house with rats and roaches that was given to us for free and my father was without a job for 3 years. My mother was in the hospital a lot because she had a brain tumor the size of a baseball. So yes, I have lived in poor conditions. Let's not turn this into a pity party, ok? I'm sorry you lived in poor conditions, I really am, but guess what? My mother had my baby sister during those times, and we made it just fine. Don't start throwing around excuses.

Let me ask you this - do you know how it feels to be pregnat? You're a guy, so I presume you don't. Also, do you know what adoption homes are like in Bulgaria? Or in other poor countries in Europe and elsewhere? I cannot describe it to you with words. It's 15-20 kids living in ONE room. With minimal conditions. Most of them never get educated. And most of them never get adopted. Because not many people look to adopt in such counries. Americans/Canadians have it easy.

Let me ask you this. Do YOU know what it's like to be pregnant? Please, don't be hypocritical. It's one of the two things I hate in life. Hypocrisy and ignorance. And, darling, we're here to discuss abortion in America, ok? Not Bulgaria. I'm very sorry about your countries condition, but what does that have to do with anything? Considering that this debate is about abortion in America, your statement is a personal one, so let's not bring our emotions into debate, ok? Frankly, why are you in here? You don't even live in America. This topic is based on the question of should abortion be legalized in the United States, therefore I don't see why you're in here if you do not live here. If you'd like to debate about abortion in general and give us reasons to pity your country, go elsewhere, thanks.

Nice research you did there. Sorry to dissapoint, but it is a part of the woman. You can't compare it to other examples, because how can you really compare a pregnat woman with a hospital? That's not logical to me. And identical twins have the same DNA, but one is not a part of the other. What's your argument there?
If the woman dies, the fetus will die probably within hours. So how can you use that as your argument really? It cannot survive on its own. Therefore, it's dependant on the woman. How can you even say that it will survive if the mother dies? We could also survive without food for a while, but we'd also die after. Right?

Considering I didn't do any research, I'll take that as a compliment. I learned that in Biology AP after we had a two day discussion on abortion. And before you go saying that my teacher was pro-life, he wasn't. He's an atheist and pro-choice. So, you're pretty much calling my information false. Mind backing that up with some facts? If you can doubt my information that came right down from a trained professional who went to college to major in biology, surely I can doubt yours. So, go ahead, prove it. And actually, if you'd like to get scientific, identical twins have different phenotypes. That means the same DNA is expressed in different ways, therefore, it's not identical. To a DNA test, yes, but the genes in twins are different. If twins had the exact same DNA and genetic code, like parts of a body do, they would have the same set of finger prints. But, they don't. Wow, and I never thought biology/physical science class would come in handy! I'd like you to read an article: Fetus Found Alive. That baby was only 7 and a half months old in the womb. According to you, that would be fully dependant on it's mother. She is still alive today. It's actually been proven. This wasn't a freak event. If you're skeptical, look it up. I'm not wasting my time.

Ok, seriously, did you even read my entire post? What I bolded in your quote was the exact same thing I said, you're just trying to use it to attribute to your argument. And again, that looks like you're running out of things to argue.

Haha, in USA, you can sue pretty much everyone for pretty much everything. I'm not gonna argue for that.

Your statement is irrelevant, and you refuse to argue the point? Interesting...

You really wanna know? One of them didn't have money, or at least that's what she told me. The other two didn't know what they were getting into. Of course they regret it.. I've talked with them millions of times. One used to be my best friend when I lived there. You have NO idea whatsoever how hard it is to raise a baby on your OWN without a job, without a father in a shit-little town.

Yes, I really want to know, or I wouldn't have asked. You're from Bulgaria, right? Yes, that's right. So, I'm assuming your friends live around there too, right? Yes, I can imagine the conditions for your friends are much worse then anything here in America, but guess what? We're dicussing the United States, so I must ask again, what's your point? Ok, do you have any idea how hard it is to raise a baby on YOUR own without a job, without a father, in a shit-little town? No, you only have friends who do. I on the other hand had a mother and a father who raised me AND my sister in that shitty place I described eairlier in a rural county in the middle of no where in North Carolina. Also, when my sister moved down to Florida to live with her mother (we have different mothers) she lived in the slums of Leto Florida in an apartment the size of my living room with drug dealers making deals right outside her complex. She still raised her son at 16 years old. She got her GED, which is the same as a high school deploma, like I said before, and she graduated from college and she's making great money now. Guess what? My nephew is just fine and we are thankful every day that she didn't have that abortion that the doctors pushed her and pushed her to have. Please, don't try and tell me that I have no idea. I have just as much of an idea as you, if not more. I was trying not to bring personal life into this, but you crossed that line first even when you said that we shouldn't bring personal thing into debate. For that, I'll have to call you a hypocrite.

Tell me it's ignorant when YOU get raped. Then we can talk.

Ok, you do the same when you carry a child. Then we'll talk about abortion.

I see what you're saying, but the comparisons you make are absurd. How can you compare a fetus with a dog? Or how can you give the example with your sister? It's not the same thing, dear.

Sure, adoption is the much better way to go, but as I said, abortion is an option too. I think I've said this, but if -I- got pregnat, I wouldn't be able to play/perform for at least the last 3-4 months, and that would literally ruin my career. I'm not saying it's the BEST way to go - no, it isn't. But it's an option and it's available.

Since you see what I'm saying, no matter how absurd, I guess the comparisons worked. Ah, perfect! I used the dog example just to see what you'd say. You said exactly what I thought you would. So, I compare a fetus to a dog, but you're the one who thinks it's ok to kill a fetus. In that case, you shouldn't mind me putting it on a same level as a dog, correct? You obviously don't think any higher of it. I'm sure you think killing a dog for no reason is wrong, don't you?

Well, I'm glad we agree on the adoption part. At least that's something. So you'd rather end someones future life to better your own? That's selfish. And I very seriously doubt that 3-4 months would "ruin" your career. I'm also in the music business, and I know what you mean. Stopping for 3-4 months wouldn't be a good idea, but it most certainly wouldn't ruin your career. You'd just have to start practicing again afterwards and you'd be back to normal in no time. I always wanted to play piano but I never got lessons. I play guitar and sing. Singing is huge. If you don't practice for even a week, you'll get rusty real fast.

Hmm. Did you also know that some pregnat women who get raped also commit suicide? What's worse - ending one "life", or two?

You confuse me so much. Ok, the person just said, and I have already given an article, that suicide is more likely after abortion, and you reply to that with a "Did you also know that some pregnant women who get raped also commit suicide?" Where in the world is you're logic coming from? You're right, my statement about you thinking things through is uncalled for. It wasn't true. You're spinning around in circles. You said the same exact thing they said, but twisted it around to support your idea. According you your statement, if the woman gets raped and then has an abortion, that almost doubles her chances of committing suicide, wouldn't you say? You just enforced my argument even more. Thank you.


forza, I don't wear panties. Most guys don't. You may want to look into that.

I have been here a lot longer then you have, so please don't try and explain anything about the rules or what people have already said. I've been saying this debate is pointless from the beginning. Had you actually read through the previous thread like the rules say, you would've realized that. That's rule #3, in red. I'm just arguing with Angelina Taylor because she actually has a good, valid argument.

And if you think that was a personal attack, you obviously haven't been here very long. You mentioned my name first and proceeded by saying I was bound to fail, so I replied. In no way did I "attack" you. I'm sorry if my reply embarrassed you a bit, but that's no reason to make outrageous claims.

Ahem, you cannot compare a fetus living off of the mother to us living off of say a respirator. Uhh we at least have the ability to live on our own, while a fetus has absolutely no chance. Invent a machine that can carry a two month old fetus around..then we'll talk. It is a part of the mother because it depends on the mother. Maybe not by definition of the word, but they are sharing the same food, air, water, and are connected. Now I don't know about you..but to me it seems like they're a part of one another.

Angelina Taylor already made that argument, so see my reply, read the article, and read the Debate Rules #3. It's written in red.

[forza]

I have been here a lot longer then you have, so please don't try and explain anything about the rules or what people have already said. I've been saying this debate is pointless from the beginning. Had you actually read through the previous thread like the rules say, you would've realized that. That's rule #3, in red. I'm just arguing with Angelina Taylor because she actually has a good, valid argument.

And if you think that was a personal attack, you obviously haven't been here very long. You mentioned my name first and proceeded by saying I was bound to fail, so I replied. In no way did I "attack" you. I'm sorry if my reply embarrassed you a bit, but that's no reason to make outrageous claims.

If you'd like to tell me that I didn't read the entire post, let me point out to you the fallacies in your comprehensions skills. I said this:

I feel that you're an idealist trying to woo the staunch, immobile realists that dwell in this forum, iRock cB..

You apparently missed the point with this reply:

Well unfortunately, forza, you've fallen victim to the "judge others before you know them" trait. Unlike you, I do not see this as a battle of wits. I'm not trying to "woo" anyone, especially on a pathetic online forum with people who I will most likely never meet. You people's opinion means pretty much nothing to me, but I still am respectful and read what you have to say, just as you should with what I have to say. These are my ideas and my opinions that I express. There is no way to "fail" in that. Just because you disagree with my idea doesn't make it wrong or right because, frankly, who are you? You're a nobody to me, as I probably am to you. I actually pity the fact that you see this as some kind of battle that can only result in victory or failure. We're merely just stating our opinions in an intelligent manner. If you have nothing more intelligent to post then the ignorance you have just posted, I suggest you stay out. Please, don't waste our time.

All I was doing was reaffirming your idealistic approach to the abortion issue (in other words, your opinion). You point out that rather than abortion, women should raise their babies at all cost. That's idealistic. You think that rather than aborting a fetus, it should be given up for adoption after birth. That's idealistic. You evidently overlook the social conditions that warrant the necessity of abortion at times in your persistence that it is never necessary. That's idealistic. I never "judged you before I knew you." I don't have to know you to understand that you're an idealist on the subject of abortion.

And to top it all off, you don't see what you're doing as a "battle of wits." If you don't think this forum's purpose is to gain victory or to fail, you mustn't understand the definition of debate. In a debate, there is always a winner and a loser. Eventually, the abortion debate will end with one side winning, one side losing (as things develop). For now, this is a stalemate and we're left only to dish out our opinions on things, which is highly frowned upon here (so I can't understand why this topic is still open).

Yet, as I continue to skim through your posts, I find more and more derogatory remarks, and a good mass of holier-than-thou bullshit, intended, as you say, only to continue argumentation (while you inadvertently offend everyone in your path).

You continuously patronize people, pointing out petty spelling errors and lapses in syntax. You found it quite necessary to put in bold the 'n' in pregnant. Do you feel better after putting someone down like that? And you insist that Angelina Taylor can't participate in a debate about American issues simply because she's from another country. In that case, I suggest that all the mods close down any topics on foreign politics, poverty, culture, etc. We don't know anything about, or experience it every day, therefore we shouldn't talk about it.

Okay, so you've been here longer than I have, but in no way does that put you in a position to run off at the mouth the way you have. I could waste my time pointing out your flaws. For instance, you don't seem to understand the difference between/uses of "than" and "then":

I have been here a lot longer then you have

But, like you said, this is just a "pathetic online forum," why get so worked up about it? The only thing that's apparent to me in this cloudy, neverending debate is your ignorance and hypocrisy, because you sure do treat this as a "battle of wits." You're being defensive as though if anyone tramples on your territory it's the end of the world as you know it.

This is an e-Hardass at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.