socialism v. capitalism: Rating Options

[brooklyneast05]

Blame welfare. It makes people lazy and expect hand outs.

is that supposed to be a reply to what i just said...becuase i don't get how that's even relevant to people who work hard everyday to get by but can't get ahead in the world.

[Uronacid]

shrugs, i'm just thinking of people who have been f*cked since day one. like minorities who got thrown into poverty and are still trying to figure out how to get out. how to get educated when you're stuck somewhere with shitty schools. how to get a college education so you can get a better job when you're family needs you to go to work asap so you can buy food.

i don't get how people are always supposed to find time to get ahead while they're trying to just get by.

Like the slaves? How far are you going back. Are you talking about immigrants? What minorities are being thrown into poverty now? I thought myself in public school because the education sucked there. If I hadn't taken that initiative then I would've been stupid just like the rest of the kids in my class. Maybe the first step these people should take is to get away from what's dragging them down... their family.

Blame welfare. It makes people lazy and expect hand outs.

This is a good point, systems like welfare prolong the poverty cycle for those that abuse it.

is that supposed to be a reply to what i just said...becuase i don't get how that's even relevant to people who work hard everyday to get by but can't get ahead in the world.

Do you honestly believe those people who are on welfare think they're lazy. Of course they're not lazy. They're "always" looking for a job. They just "can't" do anything without the help of the gov't. They make the people who work hard and get screwed look like they're crying wolf.

[brooklyneast05]

Like the slaves? How far are you going back. Are you talking about immigrants? What minorities are being thrown into poverty now? I thought myself in public school because the education sucked there. If I hadn't taken that initiative then I would've been stupid just like the rest of the kids in my class. Maybe the first step these people should take is to get away from what's dragging them down... their family.

how do kids get away from their family? just up and leave and start going to a good school in a good community?

Do you honestly believe those people who are on welfare think they're lazy. Of course they're not lazy. They're "always" looking for a job. They just "can't" do anything without the help of the gov't. They make the people who work hard and get screwed look like they're crying wolf.

but i'm not even talking about people who abuse welfare, or drugs, or any of the rest of this. i'm talking about people who go to work everyday to try to have something to eat and somewhere to sleep. you're not even addressing what i'm talking about because i've never once this whole debate been talking about people WITHOUT job.

[Uronacid]

but i'm not even talking about people who abuse welfare, or drugs, or any of the rest of this. i'm talking about people who go to work everyday to try to have something to eat and somewhere to sleep. you're not even addressing what i'm talking about because i've never once this whole debate been talking about people WITHOUT job.

I have never seen anyone who's single, has a stable job, works every day, yet cannot get by.

[illriginal]

is that supposed to be a reply to what i just said...becuase i don't get how that's even relevant to people who work hard everyday to get by but can't get ahead in the world.

A child whose parents are on welfare will more than likely be the ones to suffer the consequences. It causes all sorts of horrible trends.

Welfare doesn't pay someone enough to fully cover for their child's well being. In both health and education. Thus putting more strain on the child as they grow older who have more and more needs.



Minimum wage should be rid of. That's just as bad as welfare. Lets be realistic.. minimum wage is more for kids during summer... little 14/15 year olds. Not for adults who have actual bills. Minimum wage couldn't even cover mortgage, much less health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, vehicular insurance, life insurance, home insurance, 401k, etc... minimum wage is useless and it's part of the problem in this country.

[brooklyneast05]

I have never seen anyone who's single, has a stable job, works every day, yet cannot get by.

yeah but getting by isn't getting ahead. just because you can get by in the lower class doesn't mean you're hard work is ever going to get you out of lower class. that's what i'm saying.

Minimum wage should be rid of. That's just as bad as welfare. Lets be realistic.. minimum wage is more for kids during summer... little 14/15 year olds. Not for adults who have actual bills. Minimum wage couldn't even cover mortgage, much less health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, vehicular insurance, life insurance, home insurance, 401k, etc... minimum wage is useless and it's part of the problem in this country.

i agree

[Uronacid]

yeah but getting by isn't getting ahead. just because you can get by in the lower class doesn't mean you're hard work is ever going to get you out of lower class. that's what i'm saying.
i agree

Simple hard work will never get you out of that cycle... you have to educate yourself and make decisions that will further your career. When I say hard work I don't mean, "Hard work some other random minimum wage job". They still have the option to educate themselves. Again, I was summing it all up as hard work.

Minimum wage should be rid of. That's just as bad as welfare. Lets be realistic.. minimum wage is more for kids during summer... little 14/15 year olds. Not for adults who have actual bills. Minimum wage couldn't even cover mortgage, much less health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, vehicular insurance, life insurance, home insurance, 401k, etc... minimum wage is useless and it's part of the problem in this country.

If you were to remove minimum wage then businesses would be able to take advantage of their employees. Someone who works a minimum wage job for 40 hours a week can get by paying rent/bills.

[illriginal]

Simple hard work will never get you out of that cycle... you have to educate yourself and make decisions that will further your career. When I say hard work I don't mean, "Hard work some other random minimum wage job". They still have the option to educate themselves. Again, I was summing it all up as hard work.



If you were to remove minimum wage then businesses would be able to take advantage of their employees. Someone who works a minimum wage job for 40 hours a week can get by paying rent/bills.

lol no they wouldn't.

Florida, minimum wage is $7.21


$7.21 x 40 = $288.40

$288.40 x 4 = 1153.60


lol... I make that much in a week (a lil less actually). And no way in hell can I afford my mortgage, electricity, cell phone bill, internet, satellite tv, car insurance, health insurance, life insurance, 401k, vision insurance, dental insurance, groceries etc... with what I make.

I STRONGLY doubt someone making minimum wage can afford to live by themselves, paying rent, electricity, car insurance, and other bills combined each month. It is impossible.

[brooklyneast05]

I STRONGLY doubt someone making minimum wage can afford to live by themselves, paying rent, electricity, car insurance, and other bills combined each month. It is impossible.

for real. i duno how people can.

[Uronacid]

lol no they wouldn't.

Florida, minimum wage is $7.21
$7.21 x 40 = $288.40

$288.40 x 4 = 1153.60
lol... I make that much in a week (a lil less actually). And no way in hell can I afford my mortgage, electricity, cell phone bill, internet, satellite tv, car insurance, health insurance, life insurance, 401k, vision insurance, dental insurance, groceries etc... with what I make.

I STRONGLY doubt someone making minimum wage can afford to live by themselves, paying rent, electricity, car insurance, and other bills combined each month. It is impossible.

That's just it, you wouldn't have a mortgage, car insurance, cellphone bill, vision insurance, satellite tv, or dental insurance with those wages.

With 1153.60 you would have a 1 bedroom apartment for about $450 a month, $200 a month for heat and electric for one person, and $200 dollars a month for groceries for one person. That leaves us with 303.60, but wait we have to pay a shit ton of money for taxes. So, since this individual has claimed himself as a dependent we drop that to about $150.00 left over.

[mipadi]

That's just it, you wouldn't have a mortgage, car insurance, cellphone bill, vision insurance, satellite tv, or dental insurance with those wages.

With 1153.60 you would have a 1 bedroom apartment for about $450 a month, $200 a month for heat and electric for one person, and $200 dollars a month for groceries for one person. That leaves us with 303.60, but wait we have to pay a shit ton of money for taxes. So, since this individual has claimed himself as a dependent we drop that to about $150.00 left over.

You're missing, and underestimating, a bunch of expenses.

For example, I don't live in a pricey area, but $200 alone wouldn't cover food. I probably spend $275 a month on food. That includes going out once or twice, but I'm also not exactly eating steak and lobster every night. Sometimes I only eat once or twice a day, too. I could maybe trim it to $250, but that'd be stretching it.

Car insurance, for some people, is practically a necessity, too. Not every place has an easy access to mass transit, and a lot of people can't get to work without a car. As for health insurance, most minimum-wage jobs don't offer health insurance, so you either (a) have to get it on your own (another cost), or (b) not get sick. (b) is a pretty pricey option if you do have the misfortune of falling ill, or even getting hit by a car or something like that.

You also left out things like water bills and gas bills. Okay, sometimes rent covers water, and not everyone has gas, but these are additional expenses for some people. For example, my rent doesn't cover water or gas, so if I want to have a hot shower, I have to pay for that, too.

[Uronacid]

You're missing, and underestimating, a bunch of expenses.

For example, I don't live in a pricey area, but $200 alone wouldn't cover food. I probably spend $275 a month on food. That includes going out once or twice, but I'm also not exactly eating steak and lobster every night. Sometimes I only eat once or twice a day, too. I could maybe trim it to $250, but that'd be stretching it.

Car insurance, for some people, is practically a necessity, too. Not every place has an easy access to mass transit, and a lot of people can't get to work without a car. As for health insurance, most minimum-wage jobs don't offer health insurance, so you either (a) have to get it on your own (another cost), or (b) not get sick. (b) is a pretty pricey option if you do have the misfortune of falling ill, or even getting hit by a car or something like that.

You also left out things like water bills and gas bills. Okay, sometimes rent covers water, and not everyone has gas, but these are additional expenses for some people. For example, my rent doesn't cover water or gas, so if I want to have a hot shower, I have to pay for that, too.

Ok, so we'll bring it to 250. I spend about 200 dollars on food each week on my own. I don't believe it would be stretching it if they watched what they purchased the same way I do. They're left with 100 dollars for the month. Health insurance is off, this person doesn't make enough for that. They need to get a phone so -$20 a month for vonage. Cars are a luxury when you're on minimum wage.You need a job that pays more before that happens. Car is off limits. Now we're down to 80 dollars left over...

$135.51 <- traditional monthly health insurance from ehealthinsurance.com for me. So, if we give Joe health insurance he has:

-75.51 per month

It's still hard to believe that this person is so pathetic that they cannot do anything but work a minimum wage jobs to make a living. Looks like Joe will have to work at 2 McDonald's locations before he can get out of the rut. Maybe a 60 hour work week at two minimum wage jobs will help. It will give him about 400 extra dollars a month after taxes. So he can have 325.00 a month to save.

[mipadi]

Ok, so we'll bring it to 250. I spend about 200 dollars on food each week on my own. I don't believe it would be stretching it if they watched what they purchased the same way I do. They're left with 100 dollars for the month. Health insurance is off, this person doesn't make enough for that. They need to get a phone so -$20 a month for vonage. Cars are a luxury when you're on minimum wage.You need a job that pays more before that happens. Car is off limits. Now we're down to 80 dollars left over...

A car is not a luxury. If you can't get to work, you can't get paid, and in many areas, mass transit is simply not an option. I don't think health insurance can be discredited so easily, either -- if you get sick or injured, you either need insurance, or you need to pay bills yourself. Either way is expensive; what's more costly, though?

I think it's pretty callous of you to suggest that someone working a minimum-wage job should either not get sick or injured, or foot the bill themselves.

[Uronacid]

A car is not a luxury. If you can't get to work, you can't get paid, and in many areas, mass transit is simply not an option. I don't think health insurance can be discredited so easily, either -- if you get sick or injured, you either need insurance, or you need to pay bills yourself. Either way is expensive; what's more costly, though?

I think it's pretty callous of you to suggest that someone working a minimum-wage job should either not get sick or injured, or foot the bill themselves.

It's not me brotha' it's life. He's trying to survive. I added health insurance to the plan, however he'll have to work 60 hours a week. Joe can ride the bicycle to work because he works in the city. He moved there to support his life style because he couldn't survive the rocky mountains. He is saving 325.00 a month while working 60 hours a week.

[illriginal]

Dood... Uronacid, in order for someone to live by themselves with that sort of wage... they couldn't even own a car, no cell phone, no fast food, nor any form of entertainment. They would work just to pay rent (no where in South Florida can you find an apartment for $400 or even $500 a month), electricity, groceries (barely any groceries at that), and possibly cable.

Forget owning a car, forget saving money, forget owning a cell phone, forget buying new things such as clothes, jewelry, fragrances, shoes etc.. I could never work just to pay bills.. I would feel like a slave!

Minimum wage, like I said earlier, is more for highschool kids, possibly college students. It is not meant for an adult who has or wants to have a normal enjoying life. Minimum wage is straight slave labor money.


Just to give an idea on just groceries a lone. I live with my lady and between me and her our groceries easily hit $300+ a month. Granted we do bulk shopping so that we save money... if we were to buy as much food at a normal grocery store we'd be spending more like $450 a month.

[Uronacid]

Dood... Uronacid, in order for someone to live by themselves with that sort of wage... they couldn't even own a car, no cell phone, no fast food, nor any form of entertainment. They would work just to pay rent (no where in South Florida can you find an apartment for $400 or even $500 a month), electricity, groceries (barely any groceries at that), and possibly cable.

Forget owning a car, forget saving money, forget owning a cell phone, forget buying new things such as clothes, jewelry, fragrances, shoes etc.. I could never work just to pay bills.. I would feel like a slave!

You can find a 1 bedroom apartment in NY(upstate) for 450 a month. You can do it in Florida.

Joe works out for fun. He's a real brute. Also, with that $350 he is saving each month he has decided to invest in a PS3 because he heard from his friends that he could install linux and steal his neighbors internet. He hopes to obtain new skills from his new found hobby and hopefully find a new job. No-one wants to live like this, Joe is doing it to survive and he's very offended by your slave comment. After all, this is what he needs to do.

[illriginal]

You can find a 1 bedroom apartment in NY(upstate) for 450 a month. You can do it in Florida.

Joe works out for fun. He's a real brute. Also, with that $350 he is saving each month he has decided to invest in a PS3 because he heard from his friends that he could install linux and steal his neighbors internet. He hopes to obtain new skills from his new found hobby and hopefully find a new job.

lol what? In New York? No. Definitely not... I know a shit load of people who even got a studio and that was pushing nearly $700 a month. And even so... do know how what kind of taxes are in New York? What if you're a smoker? A pack of New Ports in NY costs $9.50... here in South Florida, it just raised about another dollar and now costs $4.75-ish.

Meh nevermind... you probably live with mom and dad and don't understand the reality of minimum wage when tryin to have a life.



What's with the Joe story? And you don't have to install Linux to steal someone's wireless connection on your PS3..

Oh I get it... Joe should use his brain and get an education. That way he can stop being another corporate slave.

[Uronacid]

Meh nevermind... you probably live with mom and dad and don't understand the reality of minimum wage when tryin to have a life.

That's not true. I own an inner-city two family house, and I'm a land lord. I'm also a network admin just like you. I have an $850.00 a month mortgage. I feel you don't worry. :)

What's with the Joe story? And you don't have to install Linux to steal someone's wireless connection on your PS3..

He doesn't know that yet, but he will soon find out.

Joe should use his brain and get an education. That way he can stop being another corporate slave.

What did you say? lol

[illriginal]

That's not true. I own an inner-city two family house, and I'm a land lord. I'm also a network admin just like you. I have an $850.00 a month mortgage. I feel you don't worry. :)

Great I pay $1,320 a month on my mortgage.

And no offense, I'm not just a network admin. Technically I'm a Systems Engineer.


Uronacid... why are you now starting to troll after refusing to acknowledge the reality of life as a grown up?

Is it too hard to understand that an education is required majority of the time in order to succeed in life? The only other way of succeeding in life is by being born into a multimillionaire family. Or marrying into a rich family.

[Uronacid]

Great I pay $1,320 a month on my mortgage.

And no offense, I'm not just a network admin. Technically I'm a Systems Engineer.
Uronacid... why are you now starting to troll after refusing to acknowledge the reality of life as a grown up?

Is it too hard to understand that an education is required majority of the time in order to succeed in life? The only other way of succeeding in life is by being born into a multimillionaire family. Or marrying into a rich family.

Apologies, I didn't mean to troll your post. It was an attempt at being funny/sarcastic, however the internet masked that attempt. I was agreeing with you. You are correct. Education is a necessity. If you don't educate yourself then you will fail at life.

[shoryuken]

oo.. ill blastoisee acttuullii staii mature dizz thrad... ^^ good fuu u..

URONACID... sounn lyke nosex n james..
dam REDNECK..

[NoSex]

In capitalism you're given the opportunity to make the best of your life or waste it

uhm. no. you're a dumb ignorant f*ck.
if you weren't born in your safe-white-suburban home, of course you wouldn't be saying anything like that.
the ghetto is a real & geographically divining power. if you are born into poverty, it is tremendously unlikely that you can rise out of destitution by mere will-power alone (that's given that "will-power to achieve" has been taught to you in the first place). you see, as white kids... we learned @ an early age the importance of education, office jobs, & rock & roll music. a lot of kids don't have that luxury (& yes, that is a luxury). try "learning yourself" when your school is pencil-less, your mother is sick (& can't afford health insurance) & can't work, so you have to pick up an after-school job that, eventually, turns into an other-than-school job, just so that you can feed yourself & your dying mother. where the f*ck is the time for "succeeding" in avoiding the drugs that are all around you, the violence outside your window (caused by class divide, & poverty), trying to get by, & not being able to attend a school (that is underfunded & sucks ass anyways)? like, don't you understand that poverty & failure is geographic & wealth & success is hereditary?

I don't feel that society should have to pay for this.

pay for what? the violence, crime, sickness, & social ills caused by a class struggle - caused by a government that doesn't provide the necessities of life for its people? a society is better if its parts (the people that make up a society) are happy & healthy. there is a reason people rob one another & fight & die... & it's not because they have everything they need & feel safe. maslow's hierarchy (of needs) much?

I have never seen anyone who's single, has a stable job, works every day, yet cannot get by.

then you a metric-f*ck-ton whiter than i could have ever imagined. not to mention stupid as f*ck... way to "educate yourself," dummy.
read "nickle & dimed" by barbara ehrenreich

They still have the option to educate themselves.

Education is a necessity. If you don't educate yourself then you will fail at life.

you realize someone needs to grow up in an environment that teaches that in order for it to actually happen? kids don't just succeed in school because they try their hardest & provide for themselves all of the proper equipment & motivation (needed) to succeed. they have to be taught by their environment to be good @ school, & be good @ being autodidactic. if you live in destitution, this sort of attitude (achievement oriented) is going to be very rare.

not to mention, no one gives a f*ck if you can do this or that... or know this or that... without a reputation & without a piece of paper (diploma) to demonstrate your aptitude, f*ck all to trying to get a job. & diplomas aren't f*cking cheap.

even if you can miraculously educate yourself... that doesn't mean you can do shit without a piece of paper that says you can "do shit."

URONACID... sounn lyke nosex n james..
dam REDNECK..

what the f*ck?! you're such a stupid mother f*cker. get the f*ck out.

p.s. did you two even read the first post of this thread? way to f*ck up!

[mipadi]

read "nickle & dimed" by barbara ehrenreich

I'm glad you brought this up, because I was going to mention this myself. I actually had the pleasure of meeting Ehrenreich last year -- she came to give a talk on these issues. Unlike most of the people posting in this thread (no offense, but it appears to be the truth), Ehrenreich did attempt to live in minimum-wage jobs for several months, and chronicled the "adventure" in her book. Let's just say she wasn't terribly successful.

I still assert the point, too, that the very idea of capitalism undermines the fabric of society. The whole point of humans forming societies was to share limited resources, instead of fighting over them. It's shocking that we've swung the other way and actually encourage Americans to compete with one another over resources, rather than just helping each other out so everyone's life can be a bit better.

I know there are practical reasons why socialist societies can become corrupt, but no one's presented compelling evidence that capitalist societies aren't just as corrupt.

[shoryuken]

what the f*ck?! you're such a stupid mother f*cker. get the f*ck out.

p.s. did you two even read the first post of this thread? way to f*ck up!

HAHAHA.. i call u out n BAM... u post huh..

chillax... moi hur da wattchh dat alll.. haha..

[Uronacid]

uhm. no. you're a dumb ignorant f*ck. if you weren't born in your safe-white-suburban home, of course you wouldn't be saying anything like that. the ghetto is a real & geographically divining power. if you are born into poverty, it is tremendously unlikely that you can rise out of destitution by mere will-power alone (that's given that "will-power to achieve" has been taught to you in the first place). you see, as white kids... we learned @ an early age the importance of education, office jobs, & rock & roll music. a lot of kids don't have that luxury (& yes, that is a luxury). try "learning yourself" when your school is pencil-less, your mother is sick (& can't afford health insurance) & can't work, so you have to pick up an after-school job that, eventually, turns into an other-than-school job, just so that you can feed yourself & your dying mother. where the f*ck is the time for "succeeding" in avoiding the drugs that are all around you, the violence outside your window (caused by class divide, & poverty), trying to get by, & not being able to attend a school (that is underfunded & sucks ass anyways)? like, don't you understand that poverty & failure is geographic & wealth & success is hereditary?
pay for what? the violence, crime, sickness, & social ills caused by a class struggle - caused by a government that doesn't provide the necessities of life for its people? a society is better if its parts (the people that make up a society) are happy & healthy. there is a reason people rob one another & fight & die... & it's not because they have everything they need & feel safe. maslow's hierarchy (of needs) much?
then you a metric-f*ck-ton whiter than i could have ever imagined. not to mention stupid as f*ck... way to "educate yourself," dummy.
read "nickle & dimed" by barbara ehrenreich
you realize someone needs to grow up in an environment that teaches that in order for it to actually happen? kids don't just succeed in school because they try their hardest & provide for themselves all of the proper equipment & motivation (needed) to succeed. they have to be taught by their environment to be good @ school, & be good @ being autodidactic. if you live in destitution, this sort of attitude (achievement oriented) is going to be very rare.

not to mention, no one gives a f*ck if you can do this or that... or know this or that... without a reputation & without a piece of paper (diploma) to demonstrate your aptitude, f*ck all to trying to get a job. & diplomas aren't f*cking cheap.

even if you can miraculously educate yourself... that doesn't mean you can do shit

Just about 90% of the things you said about me were wrong. To disprove them:

• I live in a ghetto.
• I spent 5-6 years of my life in a two bedroom apartment with my parents and three younger sisters. We all slept in the same room with old mattress lined up on the floor. My life wasn't exactly glamorous.
• Two people were killed in front of my house last year. An African American woman pushed her husbands head in front of a car and local neighborhood gang drove by and shot a young man walking down the street.

My father who did not have a college degree got a job as a cable salesmen, and busted his ass to get us an education. I think you're wrong. I do know what it's like being poverty stricken. You're ignorant. :)