you can't have it both ways! Options

[JlIaTMK]

Oh, fae show me the post that you had about Christs birthday not being in December haha. I really was looking for that o.o. It was actually in January I believe. thank you again.

[Spirited Away]

Oh, fae show me the post that you had about Christs birthday not being in December haha. I really was looking for that o.o. It was actually in January I believe. thank you again.

Yes well, others have said that it was in spring and fall, but never anywhere close to the exact date of December 25th. The Bible itself never states the exact day that Christ was born. And well, that's proof enough.

[*kryogenix*]

I've been pretty busy, just trying to keep up with my thread.

and yes you're exactly right.  christmas to most people is just a day to relax and have fun and receive presents.  it's like a reunion day that comes once a year when families get together and celebrate anything.

CHRISTMAS = HOLIDAY AND FUN.
CHRISTMAS ≠CHRISTIAN-ONLY HOLIDAY.

Christmas is supposed to be a Christian holiday. Christ's Mass. We celebrate Christ's Birthday. What most people celebrate is winter holidays, which is the holiday and fun.

Here's a funny analogy:

Person A loves to eat carrots. Person B wants to eat carrots, but can't because he's allergic. Instead, he eats apples. However, he insists on calling them carrots.

Person A represents Christians, carrots for Christianity. Person B represents those who don't believe in Christ as the Son of God, and apples are the winter holidays.

Look, I'm not against celebrating holidays. I'm against the commercialization of Christmas. I'm fine with non-christians giving gifts and being merry, as long as they don't call it Christmas.

Christmas = Christ's Mass

Without Christ, we would have no Christmas.

Yes well, others have said that it was in spring and fall, but never anywhere close to the exact date of December 25th. The Bible itself never states the exact day that Christ was born. And well, that's proof enough.

That's besides the point.

now with gifts...

that's a PAGAN tradition, ADDED to christianity to MAKE IT APPEAL to more PAGANS.

It can be argued that Christians who are exchanging gifts are doing so in the spirit of the Wise Men who brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. It doesn't neccessarily have to be taken from the Pagans. In fact, the Spanish celebrate this on the feast of the Epiphany, by placing their shoes at the door, so that the next day, they will get presents from the Wise Men. Our equivalent would be the stockings at the fireplace.

[sadolakced acid]

you can keep your mass, we don't want that.

[Spirited Away]

Here's a funny analogy:

Person A loves to eat carrots. Person B wants to eat carrots, but can't because he's allergic. Instead, he eats apples.  However, he insists on calling them carrots.

Person A represents Christians, carrots for Christianity. Person B represents those who don't believe in Christ as the Son of God, and apples are the winter holidays.

Here's a funny one, too:

Person A eats carrots because he loves carrots. Person B love apples because he loves apples. They both eat it on the same day and they both call it Health Eating day.

Person A is the Christian who does his own thing on Christmas, and person B is the non-Christian who does his own thing on Christmas.

Why do they call it Christmas? Because some nonsensical guy thought that it would be advantageous to make a random Pagan Holiday into a religious holiday that will make them convert more. So now that we are calling it Christmas, but still celebrating it our own way, people get mad.

You know very well that the Pope who made up Christmas had an agenda: conversion.

Look, I'm not against celebrating holidays. I'm against the commercialization of Christmas. I'm fine with non-christians giving gifts and being merry, as long as they don't call it Christmas.

Christmas = Christ's Mass

Look, many words do not have the same meaning as it was originally.

The word "gay" used to mean just happy, but now it's also used to describle a homosexual male.

And the word ghetto is another example.

Definitions change.

It can be argued that Christians who are exchanging gifts are doing so in the spirit of the Wise Men who brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. It doesn't neccessarily have to be taken from the Pagans. In fact, the Spanish celebrate this on the feast of the Epiphany, by placing their shoes at the door, so that the next day, they will get presents from the Wise Men. Our equivalent would be the stockings at the fireplace.

ACTUALLY, history proved that the Church FROWNED on and did NOT allow any sort of celebration and gift giving on Christmas at first. Only after a low conversion rate did the Church changed it's mind and allowed celebrations and made up some story that they give gifts because of the Wise Men.

So, yes, it was taken from Pagans to make them convert.

That's besides the point.

That IS the point when people like the dude wondersomethingorother said that Christmas is the day Christ was born. Well, I bet he/she hasn't even opened his/her Bible yet...

[avalon*]

many non Christians celebrate christmas, although a lot celebrate it just to get presents maybe? i don't really understand why you would celebrate Christmas if you're not Christian; it doesn't really make sense to me. oh well.

[Spirited Away]

many non Christians celebrate christmas, although a lot celebrate it just to get presents maybe? i don't really understand why you would celebrate Christmas if you're not Christian; it doesn't really make sense to me. oh well.

Maybe you would understand better if you read the whole thread?

you can keep your mass, we don't want that.

*snickers*

[*kryogenix*]

Here's a funny one, too:

Person A eats carrots because he loves carrots. Person B love apples because he loves apples. They both eat it on the same day and they both call it Health Eating day.

Person A is the Christian who does his own thing on Christmas, and person B is the non-Christian who does his own thing on Christmas.

Why do they call it Christmas? Because some nonsensical guy thought that it would be advantageous to make a random Pagan Holiday into a religious holiday that will make them convert more. So now that we are calling it Christmas, but still celebrating it our own way, people get mad.

The analogy doesn't work. Christmas was specifically made for celebrating Christ's birth.

Here's one that works better.

Person A eats carrots because he loves carrots. Person B love apples because he loves apples. They both eat it on the same day and they both call it Carrot Eating day.

Person A is upset because Person B is distorting the intention of Carrot Eating day by refusing to eat apples. Person A goes on createblog and makes a post in debate titled "you can't have it both ways!"

You know very well that the Pope who made up Christmas had an agenda: conversion.

How does this justify non-Christians calling their celebrations Christmas.

Look, many words do not have the same meaning as it was originally.

The word "gay" used to mean just happy, but now it's also used to describle a homosexual male.

And the word ghetto is another example.

Definitions change.

True, but the Christians had the word first. And Christmas has the word Christ in it. Would it make sense to make "Protect the Environment day" and then celebrate by doing something totally unrelated to protecting the environment?

What I'm saying is that non-Christians should

ACTUALLY, history proved that the Church FROWNED on and did NOT allow any sort of celebration and gift giving on Christmas at first. Only after a low conversion rate did the Church changed it's mind and allowed celebrations and made up some story that they give gifts because of the Wise Men.

So, yes, it was taken from Pagans to make them convert.

Not sure where you got this from, but still, this is irrelevant.

Even if conversion was the goal and the pagans did in fact celebrate by exchanging gifts before the Pope, how does this justify contemporary non-Christian usage of the word Christmas?

[sadolakced acid]

The analogy doesn't work. Christmas was specifically made for celebrating Christ's birth.

no it wasn't. it was made to get christians to convert to christianity.

[Spirited Away]

The analogy doesn't work. Christmas was specifically made for celebrating Christ's birth.

Here's one that works better.

Person A eats carrots because he loves carrots. Person B love apples because he loves apples. They both eat it on the same day and they both call it Carrot Eating day.

That's a good one and all except that it's missing out on one important point that mine had.

Carrot Eating Day no longer means eating carrots alone, and had came to be known as Eating Heath Day so that everyone will enjoy a good time eating healty foods. Originally, it was Eating Health Day until carrots loves deem carrots more important than other veggies and fruits.

And the important point? Definitions change.

How does this justify non-Christians calling their celebrations Christmas.

It doesn't. It just to prove how things don't always go your way.

Meaning, the Pope wanted conversions, but it turns out that people like to celebrate their way but use the new term "Christmas".

True, but the Christians had the word first. And Christmas has the word Christ in it. Would it make sense to make "Protect the Environment day" and then celebrate by doing something totally unrelated to protecting the environment?

Yes well, I drive on the same road as you doesn't mean that own the whole street. You celebrate using that word doesn't mean that word is yours and yours alone. Christians do not have the word "Christmas" copyrighted or anything, that just means that anyone can use it.

Not sure where you got this from, but still, this is irrelevant.

Even if conversion was the goal and the pagans did in fact celebrate by exchanging gifts before the Pope, how does this justify contemporary non-Christian usage of the word Christmas?

Oh but it's very relevant.

"Rather than attempting to suppress such popular pagan feast days, Pope Gregory I allowed Christian missionaries to give them a Christian reinterpretation, while permitting most of the associated customs to continue with little or no modification.2 The give and take between religious and governmental authorities and celebrators of Christmas continued through the years. Places where conservative Christian theocracies flourished, as in Cromwellian England and in the early New England colonies, were among those where celebrations were suppressed.3 After the Russian Revolution, Christmas celebrations were banned in the Soviet Union for the next seventy five years. A few present day Christian churches, notably the Jehovah's Witnesses, some Puritan groups, and some ultra-conservative fundamentalist denominations, still view Christmas as a pagan holiday not sanctioned by the Bible, and do not celebrate it." From Wikipedia.

That's still not what I was looking for... Hmm.

Here we are... From the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, perhaps this will be more convincing to you than Wikipedia.

"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods."

That basically points out that originally, Christmas is not to be celebrated as it is today, with feasts and gift giving.

"The Gospels. Concerning the date of Christ's birth the Gospels give no help; upon their data contradictory arguments are based. The census would have been impossible in winter: a whole population could not then be put in motion. Again, in winter it must have been; then only field labour was suspended. But Rome was not thus considerate. Authorities moreover differ as to whether shepherds could or would keep flocks exposed during the nights of the rainy season.
----
Conclusion. The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too. "


And that proves that no one really knows the exact date of Christ's birth... but here comes the rub from Christianity Today:

"The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the holiday. "It's just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow," naysayers argue. But while kowtowing to worldliness must always be a concern for Christians, the church has generally viewed efforts to reshape culture—including holidays—positively. As a theologian asserted in 320, "We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it."

Hahaha... "him who made it" in reference to the sun is lovely. But aside from the point.

As you can see, many Christians know that the origins of Christmas are directly related to Pagan origins.

Oh, and theHistory Channelalso says "in the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. "


Anyway, I guess I can understand how you feel about people celebrating their own Holidays but use the name of your Holiday. I guess I would feel peeved at people, too, if I were you.

But if anyone, or anything rather, is to blame, it would be inevitable immersing of cultures and perhaps also how we use words carelessly.

[cutandbleeding4y...]

ok first off Christmas and Easter are not religious holidays. There are NO scriptures dictating these days. Where does it say "and Christ was ressurected this day shall be Easter."? plus Easter isn't even on the same date ever year...

not to preach a sermon or anything but i'm gonna do a short brief lesson... this is mainly on Christmas...

There are no scriptural commands or examples to remember His birth. It is more than likely that He was born in the spring. There are actaully only 15 verses regarding the birth of Christ.
Matt 1:18-25
Luke 2:1-7

The wisemen were directed by God They represented Gentiles and the Shepards represented the Jews. this shows that God wanted both groups to know about the birth of Jesus.

About the nativity scene:
We are not told how many wise men there were. Yeah there were three gifts but that doesn't mean anything.
The gifts represented different things
Gold-sign of kinship
Frankensense-divinity
Myrrh-on is destined to death

Jesus died as a king, although not honorably. We are told this in numerous scriputres that discuss His death, burrial, and resurrection

The Catholics, I believe, are the ones who origianlly set Christmas and Easter. This is adding to the word of God.

Galatians 1:6-9- Within 20 years after the Church was established Paul relised there was already a problem with members trying to take away or add to the Church.

I Cor 15:12-34 absolute necessity of the resurrection
We don't celebrate Christmas and Easter (religiously) becuase as Christians we celebrate every Sunday. God saw fit to give us a weekly opportunity to honor Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection.

Ok to make a long story short there is NO scriptural evidence that Christ was born anywhere near December anything... you have to look for the evidence. like where is there evidence of instrumental music being used in worship when the new law was put in effect (the new testament, which is what should be followed now.) and where does it say that it is ok to baptize infants or to sprinkle instead of immersion. you have to look at all the facts. I'm a full our baptized member of the Church of Christ. we don't celebrate Christmas or Easter as relgious holidays just like we don't use instrumental music, sprinkle, or baptize infants. there is no scriptural evidence for it. Christmas is a worldly holiday thus ANYONE on the world can celebrate it not just Christians and thus the Church of Christ does not celebrate it for religious reasons.

[Azn Kid from NY]

oh yeah....not only was christmas created to convert pagans, but did u know Saturday was the original Christian day of the week for prayer and worship, NOT Sunday....Sunday was the Pagan day of the week where they worshipped the Sun God....dont u get it....Sun-Day....

but the Church, trying to destroy the Pagans, changed theirs from Saturday to Sunday....

almost everything in Christianity, holidays, dates, symbols, are basically derived from Pagan religions....dont belive me? heres some more examples....

the pentacle, was a holy Pagan symbol of perfection and beuaty...but in their attempts to destroy Pagans, it was changed into an evil symbol of Satan by the Church..(a pentacle...u know, that star with a circle around it)

the greek god, poseidons trident....The Church changed it to the devils trident in another attempt to destroy Pagans...

there are many others...but i dont remember....

[xGlovex]

wow you are really offended by this sorry you feel that way but yeah i gues i know what your saying

..
yes i agree.

[*xcaitlinx*]

first off, id like to say that you are [the person who wrote this topic] very closed-minded and judgemental. People can celebrate WHATEVER they want...and even though you are a christian, you don't have the power to overrule people and tell them that they can't celebrate christmas because they don't believe in god/jesus.

Yeah...people DO care too much about the gifts that they get. But when you give gifts and receive them..it's to show that you care for your family and friends. Christmas [cough..i guess i should be saying "winter holidays" since im atheist] is a time to share with your family and the people that you love.

People have all sorts of interpretations of what Christmas is all about. Go ahead...go to church on Christmas Eve and Christmas. Celebrate Jesus's resurrection at your home. But DON`T you dare criticize people that don't celebrate this holiday the way that you and your family were brought up to.

Plus....if you think that Christmas is all about worshipping Jesus ... then how about you don't give/get presents if that's the way you feel. I'm 100% sure that you love getting presents on Christmas even though you're sterotyping all non-Christians to "just be celebrating it for the presents". I bet that if they actually did make Christmas a time with no presents, no big family dinners, no christmas trees, and absoulutely no decorations and music....then you'd shut your mouth.



oo and i forget who said that Sunday was originated by the Christians...but really the Egyptians were the ones that founded the name Sunday a long time before.

[vehvih]

is it fair that non-christians celebrate christmas with presents and christmas trees? i can't stand it when people openly say how they hate religion and christianity, then come christmas time, they brag about their christmas presents. that goes for easter too. people openly reject jesus christ's resurrection but they celebrate easter. and to add insult to injury, they completely change the meaning by having egghunts and bunnies.

-edit- uh yeah. you can't have it both ways! either become a christian and partake in our holidays, or stay an atheist/agnostic and don't celebrate our holidays, and don't change our holidays either!

Based on what I believe, there are 2 meanings of Christmas/Holiday:

1. For religious people-> The birth of Christ
2. For non-religious people-> Showing to other people that you love them

Anybody could celebrate any holiday; if celebrating a certain holiday is against a law according to a religion, then let those religious people not to celebrate it. If a non-religious or an Atheist dude is celebrating Christmas because he likes to or because of that #2 reason up there, then let him be because it's his life and this is a free world and he has his own reasons.

You are stereotyping the people who doesn't believe in Christianity. Not all of them hate your Jesus Christ, not all of them brag their presents and not all of them change the meaning of Lent season. I was a Catholic before, I know many things about Christianism and right now I'm suffocating under the ignornace of many people who believes in Christianity [my family, people in my school. Heck that school is a public school] because they want me to believe in God

Whatever

[sheepy]

i agree with you. but you cant really just stop ppl from buying xmas trreees

[Enchantress101]

is it fair that non-christians celebrate christmas with presents and christmas trees? i can't stand it when people openly say how they hate religion and christianity, then come christmas time, they brag about their christmas presents. that goes for easter too. people openly reject jesus christ's resurrection but they celebrate easter. and to add insult to injury, they completely change the meaning by having egghunts and bunnies.

-edit- uh yeah. you can't have it both ways! either become a christian and partake in our holidays, or stay an atheist/agnostic and don't celebrate our holidays, and don't change our holidays either!

Oh, grow up. People can celebrate what they want. Holidays don't all have one set meaning, cast in stone and stuff.

Learn to share. Not everything belongs to christians. Just be glad that people are celebrating SOMETHING and coming together with their families in peace and all and (hopefully) not running around killing each other.

A lot of Japanese don't worship the Shinto gods anymore, but they still celebrate the festivals that were created around that religion, because it's something they do. So what? Like I said, grow up.

[topsyturvy]

caytexo, vehvih, sheepy, Enchantress101, gimme five.

[sadolakced acid]

well; i guess i'll give up lent then, because i'm not christian.

oh wait... haha.. i never did lent.

we don't steal everything. we don't steal most things.

is there a pagan lent thing that christians tried to emulate, or was it an original christian idea?


and also: i've heard that the reason why lots of christians holidays and pagan holidays coincide is becuase the pope didn't want the new converts to celebrate both christian and pagan holidays.

[*kryogenix*]

Jeez, I wrote this so long ago and saved it in a txt file because I had to run. I don't exactly remember what I was trying to say anymore, so it might come out weird.

-----------------------------

My response is well overdue, but I'm a bit busy so if I make any errors, I apologize in advance.


[quote=uninspiredfae,Jan 17 2005, 7:21 PM]
That's a good one and all except that it's missing out on one important point that mine had.

Carrot Eating Day no longer means eating carrots alone, and had came to be known as Eating Heath Day so that everyone will enjoy a good time eating healty foods. Originally, it was Eating Health Day until carrots loves deem carrots more important than other veggies and fruits.
[/quote]

Bad analogy. That would mean changing the Christian's use of the word of Christmas to something else.

[quote]
And the important point? Definitions change.
It doesn't. It just to prove how things don't always go your way.
[/quote]

Yes, things change, some for the better, some for the worse. The commercialization of Christmas is a change for the worse.

[quote]
Meaning, the Pope wanted conversions, but it turns out that people like to celebrate their way but use the new term "Christmas".
Yes well, I drive on the same road as you doesn't mean that own the whole street. You celebrate using that word doesn't mean that word is yours and yours alone. Christians do not have the word "Christmas" copyrighted or anything, that just means that anyone can use it.
Oh but it's very relevant.
[/quote]

Here's another analogy.

Pagans build a road to drive on. Christians, wanting converts, make their own road named Christmas, but special rules apply to this road.. Millenia later, athiests drive on the same road, call it the same name, but don't drive according to the rules.

I do not want Christmas to be confused with shopping sprees, Santa Claus holiday or winter day. That is why I do not like it when non-Christians refer to winter holidays as Christmas.

[quote]
"Rather than attempting to suppress such popular pagan feast days, Pope Gregory I allowed Christian missionaries to give them a Christian reinterpretation, while permitting most of the associated customs to continue with little or no modification.2 The give and take between religious and governmental authorities and celebrators of Christmas continued through the years. Places where conservative Christian theocracies flourished, as in Cromwellian England and in the early New England colonies, were among those where celebrations were suppressed.3 After the Russian Revolution, Christmas celebrations were banned in the Soviet Union for the next seventy five years. A few present day Christian churches, notably the Jehovah's Witnesses, some Puritan groups, and some ultra-conservative fundamentalist denominations, still view Christmas as a pagan holiday not sanctioned by the Bible, and do not celebrate it." From Wikipedia.

That's still not what I was looking for... Hmm.

Here we are... From the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, perhaps this will be more convincing to you than Wikipedia.

"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods."

That basically points out that originally, Christmas is not to be celebrated as it is today, with feasts and gift giving.

"The Gospels. Concerning the date of Christ's birth the Gospels give no help; upon their data contradictory arguments are based. The census would have been impossible in winter: a whole population could not then be put in motion. Again, in winter it must have been; then only field labour was suspended. But Rome was not thus considerate. Authorities moreover differ as to whether shepherds could or would keep flocks exposed during the nights of the rainy season.
----
Conclusion. The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too. "
And that proves that no one really knows the exact date of Christ's birth... but here comes the rub from Christianity Today:

"The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the holiday. "It's just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow," naysayers argue. But while kowtowing to worldliness must always be a concern for Christians, the church has generally viewed efforts to reshape culture—including holidays—positively. As a theologian asserted in 320, "We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it."

Hahaha... "him who made it" in reference to the sun is lovely. But aside from the point.

As you can see, many Christians know that the origins of Christmas are directly related to Pagan origins.

Oh, and theHistory Channelalso says "in the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. "
Anyway, I guess I can understand how you feel about people celebrating their own Holidays but use the name of your Holiday. I guess I would feel peeved at people, too, if I were you.
[/quote]

For the record, I do not deny that the Church was attempting conversions when the holiday Christmas was created.

But I'm glad you have the ability to look at it from my point of view.

[QUOTE]Ok to make a long story short there is NO scriptural evidence that Christ was born anywhere near December anything... you have to look for the evidence. like where is there evidence of instrumental music being used in worship when the new law was put in effect (the new testament, which is what should be followed now.) and where does it say that it is ok to baptize infants or to sprinkle instead of immersion. you have to look at all the facts. I'm a full our baptized member of the Church of Christ. we don't celebrate Christmas or Easter as relgious holidays just like we don't use instrumental music, sprinkle, or baptize infants. there is no scriptural evidence for it. Christmas is a worldly holiday thus ANYONE on the world can celebrate it not just Christians and thus the Church of Christ does not celebrate it for religious reasons.[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt that Jesus wasn't born in December. But, if you read the thread, you don't HAVE to celebrate someone's birthday on the day they were born.

[quote] oh yeah....not only was christmas created to convert pagans, but did u know Saturday was the original Christian day of the week for prayer and worship, NOT Sunday....Sunday was the Pagan day of the week where they worshipped the Sun God....dont u get it....Sun-Day....

but the Church, trying to destroy the Pagans, changed theirs from Saturday to Sunday....

almost everything in Christianity, holidays, dates, symbols, are basically derived from Pagan religions....dont belive me? heres some more examples....

the pentacle, was a holy Pagan symbol of perfection and beuaty...but in their attempts to destroy Pagans, it was changed into an evil symbol of Satan by the Church..(a pentacle...u know, that star with a circle around it)

the greek god, poseidons trident....The Church changed it to the devils trident in another attempt to destroy Pagans...

there are many others...but i dont remember....[/quote]

again... I don't deny that this happened.

However, the pentacle thing... My thesis (remember, I AM NOT speaking for the entire Christian community, just my thesis and mine alone) We are taught that there is only one God, and no other God besides God. Pagans believe in supernatural forces that they call god. However, the only other supernatural force is Satan. Since pagans did not worship God, and instead worshipped false gods, the pentacle is interpreted as a sign worshipping satan.

[quote]first off, id like to say that you are [the person who wrote this topic] very closed-minded and judgemental. People can celebrate WHATEVER they want...and even though you are a christian, you don't have the power to overrule people and tell them that they can't celebrate christmas because they don't believe in god/jesus.

Yeah...people DO care too much about the gifts that they get. But when you give gifts and receive them..it's to show that you care for your family and friends. Christmas [cough..i guess i should be saying "winter holidays" since im atheist] is a time to share with your family and the people that you love.

People have all sorts of interpretations of what Christmas is all about. Go ahead...go to church on Christmas Eve and Christmas. Celebrate Jesus's resurrection at your home. But DON`T you dare criticize people that don't celebrate this holiday the way that you and your family were brought up to.

Plus....if you think that Christmas is all about worshipping Jesus ... then how about you don't give/get presents if that's the way you feel. I'm 100% sure that you love getting presents on Christmas even though you're sterotyping all non-Christians to "just be celebrating it for the presents". I bet that if they actually did make Christmas a time with no presents, no big family dinners, no christmas trees, and absoulutely no decorations and music....then you'd shut your mouth.



oo and i forget who said that Sunday was originated by the Christians...but really the Egyptians were the ones that founded the name Sunday a long time before.[/quote]

this is not the first time i've been called closeminded, so I'm not taking offense.

What I'd like to ask you to do is read the post again.

Like I have said many times before, I do not object to celebration, what I object to is the destruction of the definition of Christmas as the celebration of Christ.

Still think I am closeminded?

[quote]
Ok to make a long story short there is NO scriptural evidence that Christ was born anywhere near December anything... you have to look for the evidence. like where is there evidence of instrumental music being used in worship when the new law was put in effect (the new testament, which is what should be followed now.) and where does it say that it is ok to baptize infants or to sprinkle instead of immersion. you have to look at all the facts. I'm a full our baptized member of the Church of Christ. we don't celebrate Christmas or Easter as relgious holidays just like we don't use instrumental music, sprinkle, or baptize infants. there is no scriptural evidence for it. Christmas is a worldly holiday thus ANYONE on the world can celebrate it not just Christians and thus the Church of Christ does not celebrate it for religious reasons.[/quote]

Again, I'll say this is besides the point. You don't have to celebrate someone's birth on the day they were born, look at the examples I mentioned earlier.

[QUOTE]Oh, grow up. People can celebrate what they want. Holidays don't all have one set meaning, cast in stone and stuff.

Learn to share. Not everything belongs to christians. Just be glad that people are celebrating SOMETHING and coming together with their families in peace and all and (hopefully) not running around killing each other.

A lot of Japanese don't worship the Shinto gods anymore, but they still celebrate the festivals that were created around that religion, because it's something they do. So what? Like I said, grow up.[/QUOTE]

Grow up? I don't see how I am acting childish in any way. I don't know what you're talking about.

I know not everything belongs to Christians. That is why I want the things that are exclusive to Christianity (like Christmas) to remain as sacred as they always were. I want to prevent further commercialization of the celebration Jesus' birth.

If the Japanese Shinto don't want to protect their religion, that's fine with me. But, I want to protect the sanctity of Christmas.

[QUOTE] well; i guess i'll give up lent then, because i'm not christian.

oh wait... haha.. i never did lent.

we don't steal everything. we don't steal most things.

is there a pagan lent thing that christians tried to emulate, or was it an original christian idea?


and also: i've heard that the reason why lots of christians holidays and pagan holidays coincide is becuase the pope didn't want the new converts to celebrate both christian and pagan holidays. [/QUOTE]

Again, I don't deny this but it's besides the point.

[QUOTE]i agree with you. but you cant really just stop ppl from buying xmas trreees[/QUOTE]

I have a tree, but I make sure not to forget to celebrate Jesus' birth at the same time.

To summarize:

I have nothing against non-christians being merry during the winter season, but what I am against is the use of the word Christmas to describe celebration not relating to Jesus Christ.

edit:

wth is wrong with my formatting. stupid notepad.exe

[quote]
Plus....if you think that Christmas is all about worshipping Jesus ... then how about you don't give/get presents if that's the way you feel. I'm 100% sure that you love getting presents on Christmas even though you're sterotyping all non-Christians to "just be celebrating it for the presents". I bet that if they actually did make Christmas a time with no presents, no big family dinners, no christmas trees, and absoulutely no decorations and music....then you'd shut your mouth.[/quote]

why should I give up my presents? we give presents in memory of the wise men. and why can't Christians celebrate with presents, family dinners, trees, decoration and music? I didn't realize that those were exclusive to non-christians only.

[Spirited Away]

My response is well overdue, but I'm a bit busy so if I make any errors, I apologize in advance.
Bad analogy. That would mean changing the Christian's use of the word of Christmas to something else.
Yes, things change, some for the better, some for the worse. The commercialization of Christmas is a change for the worse.

Whether the change is bad or good depends on perspective. From a Christian point of view, yes, it is a such a horrible thing. However, from a non-Christian... oh lets say a non-Christian entrepreneur who wants to profit, it's all good. It matters not people worship Jesus on Christmas, so long as people of other faiths can still have a good time since Jesus belong in their world. Why would it be a bad thing to non-Christians?

I have nothing against non-christians being merry during the winter season, but what I am against is the use of the word Christmas to describe celebration not relating to Jesus Christ.

Get it copyrighted.

why should I give up my presents? we give presents in memory of the wise men. and why can't Christians celebrate with presents, family dinners, trees, decoration and music? I didn't realize that those were exclusive to non-christians only.

Hmm, the only reason why we made a big deal out of it is because Christians (on this thread, reread it if you must) said that non-Christians have no right to celebrate in that way. However, seeing how such celebration has Pagan origins and how some Christians are so ignorant to that fact, we had to make the facts clear.

Actually, even with the wisemen story, the Church was averse to the gift giving and fun celebration. The Church originally, and many Christians STILL think that Jesus's birthday should be held with solemn silence.

The excuse of the wisemen giving gifts so that Christians give gifts today is very problematic.

[bebebasa89]

no one knows exactly when jesus was born...christmas is on dec. 25th because its the winter solstice or something ...to the romans and on some other calendar dec. 25th = jan 6...that`s why some people think his birthday is in january....

santa claus was created by some idiot ....then coca-cola adopted it to make money...its all a stupid scam..

people can celebrate whatever they want to to but yes non-christians can celebrate "christmas" if they want ....because christmas is about christ ..and what 's wrong with sharing that...but you can`t say that celebrating christmas is giving gifts ..cuz its not about material gifts its about the gift of jesus that we received...its not about the tree..because that's just a tradition....its not about the lights, the tinsel,the ornaments...

christmas is about christ...

[f4113n]

hello, wake up to the 21st century and realize that xmas has little to do with religion anymore. retailers have turned the whole purpose of all widely-celebrated religious holidays into all about giving gifts. besides, isnt that why non-christians also get off from school/work during certain christian holidays?

[Nashvixen]

Whether the change is bad or good depends on perspective. From a Christian point of view, yes, it is a such a horrible thing. However, from a non-Christian... oh lets say a non-Christian entrepreneur who wants to profit, it's all good. It matters not people worship Jesus on Christmas, so long as people of other faiths can still have a good time since Jesus belong in their world. Why would it be a bad thing to non-Christians?

Hmm, the only reason why we made a big deal out of it is because Christians (on this thread, reread it if you must) said that non-Christians have no right to celebrate in that way. However, seeing how such celebration has Pagan origins and how some Christians are so ignorant to that fact, we had to make the facts clear.

Actually, even with the wisemen story, the Church was averse to the gift giving and fun celebration. The Church originally, and many Christians STILL think that Jesus's birthday should be held with solemn silence.

The excuse of the wisemen giving gifts so that Christians give gifts today is very problematic.

I have to agree with the bold print (and the rest of it too). I am still a Christian and this is my perspective:
Christians are taught in church fairly often that nothing in the world is theirs. Not their homes, cars, food, belongings, or money, among other things. Does this not apply to holidays? I mean honestly! If a "Pagan" friend of mine wanted to come to church with me (or home with me) to celebrate Christmas, I'd accept them with open arms... Just because Jesus was that way! He went to a place that the disciples didn't want him to go, amongst sinners, to heal them and witness to them. If unbelievers experience true faith in the holidays, then perhaps they will feel the need to "celebrate" the faith all the way.
Take that into consideration ppl...

[*kryogenix*]

Whether the change is bad or good depends on perspective. From a Christian point of view, yes, it is a such a horrible thing. However, from a non-Christian... oh lets say a non-Christian entrepreneur who wants to profit, it's all good. It matters not people worship Jesus on Christmas, so long as people of other faiths can still have a good time since Jesus belong in their world. Why would it be a bad thing to non-Christians?
Get it copyrighted.

A non-Christian entrepreneur who wants to profit, at the expense of the Christians. By associating Christmas with things have nothing to do with Christmas warps the meaning of Christmas. It's none of my business how people celebrate on December 25, but if they celebrate a pagan holiday under the guise of Christmas, then there is a problem.

I don't think I can get it copyrighted.

Hmm, the only reason why we made a big deal out of it is because Christians (on this thread, reread it if you must) said that non-Christians have no right to celebrate in that way. However, seeing how such celebration has Pagan origins and how some Christians are so ignorant to that fact, we had to make the facts clear.

Actually, even with the wisemen story, the Church was averse to the gift giving and fun celebration. The Church originally, and many Christians STILL think that Jesus's birthday should be held with solemn silence.

The excuse of the wisemen giving gifts so that Christians give gifts today is very problematic.

Where do you get this? I never knew that Christmas was to be celebrated in solemn silence...

  hello, wake up to the 21st century and realize that xmas has little to do with religion anymore. retailers have turned the whole purpose of all widely-celebrated religious holidays into all about giving gifts. besides, isnt that why non-christians also get off from school/work during certain christian holidays?

Did you read any of my other posts?

I have to agree with the bold print (and the rest of it too). I am still a Christian and this is my perspective:
Christians are taught in church fairly often that nothing in the world is theirs. Not their homes, cars, food, belongings, or money, among other things. Does this not apply to holidays? I mean honestly! If a "Pagan" friend of mine wanted to come to church with me (or home with me) to celebrate Christmas, I'd accept them with open arms... Just because Jesus was that way! He went to a place that the disciples didn't want him to go, amongst sinners, to heal them and witness to them. If unbelievers experience true faith in the holidays, then perhaps they will feel the need to "celebrate" the faith all the way.
Take that into consideration ppl...

Ah, good old WWJD.

However, I believe you are interperetting this incorrectly. Jesus accepted anyone that wanted to hear his message. If someone was corrupting it, he would not be happy. Take Mark 11:15.

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves

The money changers had turned his temple into a den of thieves, so Jesus drove them away.

I do not want Jesus' birth to be dominated by commercialized trash, therefore I am speaking out.