Creation or Evolution?, Which do you believe in? Options

[sadolakced acid]

i'm with fae.

if heaven is full of only belivers

and hell has the bad people, and the non belivers,

then i would rather spend an eternity in hell and have been true to myself than to be false to myself and belive something for selfish reasons and go to heaven, besides, the good people are in hell.

[Spirited Away]

God knows your motive and whats in your heart.if you have attended church all your life and basically lived a good life, but never accepted the truth, you were stubborn and lost your chance with God. its too late for you once you die.

God knows your motive to be a good person and to have a good heart, but it's still too late for you to go to Heaven because you disbelieve Him. Okay, that's just not love. I don't understand how God loves, when a person tries to be a good person but still be punished for it. That's just dandy though because it makes Hell that much nicer.

hes God. he understands your mentality. this is controversial with many ppl bc they like to be technical and draw a line in the sand. saved or not. God isnt really like that.

I lost you at the "God isn't really like that" part. What isn't He like?

i'm with fae.

I'll be seeing you, dear. We'll say hello to Socrates, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Plato while burning with them.

[sadolakced acid]

cool. with all these smart people, hell can't be too bad. and i wonder how many hitler salutes there are in heaven... hitler must be happy... no jewish people there...

I lost you at the "God isn't really like that" part. What isn't He like? huh.gif

hmm... lemme give it a shot...

god isn't really like that... he doesn't only save those that belive in him. it's not a line in the sand thing, not two distinct groups, saved, not saved.

which means there are two groups, just not a distinct way of dividing them...
does this mean god is campaigning? spoils system- you help more people 'vote for him' and he'll help you a bit in the afterlife?

so god isn't really like that. he also picks and chooses who he wants to save based on what they've done for him...

wow i really want to go to heaven to bask in the presence of god now.

[picaso_smile]

God knows your motive to be a good person and to have a good heart, but it's still too late for you to go to Heaven because you disbelieve Him. Okay, that's just not love. I don't understand how God loves, when a person tries to be a good person but still be punished for it. That's just dandy though because it makes Hell that much nicer.

I'll clarify this for you.
You know about God... you know that other people attend church and believe in him. Yet you refuse to. The point is you've rejected God. If you'dve never ever heard of God or the Christian religion and you led a good life then you'd probably go to heaven.

That's my interpretaion anyway...

have i not made it clear? once upon a time, by chance, a molecule formed. this was RNA. it was self replicating. it made more of itself. it was not alive. it was like a computer virus, it because widespread because it made more.

this RNA then spawned bacteria. simply by chance, but the bacteria made more of itself than the simple RNA did, so that because a lot, not because of divine will, but because it made more of itself.

this in turn gave rise to DNA, etc.

and what causes us to live? what causes us to have personalities? to think?

it's the way the brain cells connect, and which ions they store.

Since you asked, not you did not make that clear. Seeing as how you didn't mention any of that before....... It happened by chance, eh? Things do NOT come out of nowhere. You as a person of science should realise this.

Also, since that molecule didn't come out of nowhere, we can assume that neither did the cells and ions which came from that first molecule.

i'm pretty sure i did answer this. our genetic code is self replicating. it makes more of itself. there are other genetic codes out there, but it's not self replicating. it doesn't become dominant because it doesn't make more. there is only one.

Selfreplicating.... yes and for something to do that there would have to be an original. Yes. And so where did that original come from? Certainly not nowhere.....

So to summarize my interpretation of your theory....
Everything comes from nowhere!




[edit] Hitler didn't go to heaven. He was crazy, insane, wacked, a few trees short of a forest-- whatever you want to call it. He killed people. God says "thou shalt not kill". Hitler wasn't listening to God. He was most likely listening to imaginary voices in his head.

[*mona lisa*]

you CANNOT say that this is no clear evidence in evolution. like how stupid are you? look around you. the facts are right in front of your face, if you can't see it then i suggest you become an archaeologist or something like that.

you can't say the there's no evidence in creation either because it has to do with religion and it's based on belief and interpretation. if you're an atheist, then i guess you don't believe in creation. that's that.

[sadolakced acid]

hitler was a good christian who belived he was doing god's work. just like a lot of people belive.

Since you asked, not you did not make that clear. Seeing as how you didn't mention any of that before....... It happened by chance, eh? Things do NOT come out of nowhere. You as a person of science should realise this.

Also, since that molecule didn't come out of nowhere, we can assume that neither did the cells and ions which came from that first molecule.

did i not say? things do not come out of nowhere, yes, but if you would please look up the miller/ urey expirement you'll see that rna did not come from nowhere.

if came from a collection of gasses and liquids, plus lightning.



what you are suggesting is that one person, or being, can, by his will, create millions of tons of energy, from nothing?

[Spirited Away]

I'll clarify this for you.
You know about God... you know that other people attend church and believe in him. Yet you refuse to. The point is you've rejected God. If you'dve never ever heard of God or the Christian religion and you led a good life then you'd probably go to heaven.

That's my interpretaion anyway...

I'll clarify this for you.

Do I reject God, or do I reject religion? If you think that there is no difference, than that's just you thinking so. Remember that not you, not your minister or priest can judge me and my beliefs. If God deems that I must go to Hell because I don't believe in Him though I live a moral conscious life, then it is between me and God. Not you or anyone else who seems to think that they can have a say about it.

You can say I'm going to Hell, but then again that's your assumption that it would happen. The Bible is law, is teachings, is standards, but it is law and all those things unto Christians.

God created all, but from what I hear, He isn't a tyrant. He supposedly loves unconditionally. So I'll just take my chances with that.

Here is where the clarification comes in: I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks about what's going to happen after this life. If you think you know, then live your life the way you want. I know my own choices and I know that with every cause there is an effect, action and consequences. I know. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live this life because they think that they know because... I know.

And that, is my interpretation. If I'm wrong, I'll take the consequences. Free will knows no boundaries.

[edit]   Hitler didn't go to heaven. He was crazy, insane, wacked, a few trees short of a forest-- whatever you want to call it.  He killed people. God says "thou shalt not kill". Hitler wasn't listening to God. He was most likely listening to imaginary voices in his head.

Uh, yea, he massacred Jews and said that he was doing the Lord's work. Doesn't that sound familiar to you? Crusaders said that they were doing the Lord's work when they pillaged and massacred those in the way of getting the Holy Land.

So, what is the difference? I don't see any condemnation of the Crusaders but how come Hitler is condemned?

I know the answer, I'm just wondering if you know.

[picaso_smile]

I'll clarify this for you.

Do I reject God, or do I reject religion? If you think that there is no difference, than that's just you thinking so. Remember that not you, not your minister or priest can judge me and my beliefs. If God deems that I must go to Hell because I don't believe in Him though I live a moral conscious life, then it is between me and God. Not you or anyone else who seems to think that they can have a say about it.

You can say I'm going to Hell, but then again that's your assumption that it would happen. The Bible is law, is teachings, is standards, but it is law and all those things unto Christians.

God created all, but from what I hear, He isn't a tyrant. He supposedly loves unconditionally. So I'll just take my chances with that.

Here is where the clarification comes in: I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks about what's going to happen after this life. If you think you know, then live your life the way you want. I know my own choices and I know that with every cause there is an effect, action and consequences. I know. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live this life because they think that they know because... I know.

And that, is my interpretation. If I'm wrong, I'll take the consequences. Free will knows no boundaries.




Uh, yea, he massacred Jews and said that he was doing the Lord's work. Doesn't that sound familiar to you? Crusaders said that they were doing the Lord's work when they pillaged and massacred those in the way of getting the Holy Land.

So, what is the difference? I don't see any condemnation of the Crusaders but how come Hitler is condemned?

I know the answer, I'm just wondering if you know.

If you don't believe in God or the bible, you're rejecting him. Simple. I'm not trying to judge, you... I'm defending my beliefs and explaining what I know. So you can either say you know about god and how loving he is or you can accept that maybe you need to do a little work getting to know God before you get free favors from him.

Also, it doesn't matter what a person says if they're crazy. If I run around town and pee on every pink objectI see and say Bush told me to do it that doesn't prove anything... except that I'm crazy.

Who says people don't condemn the Crusaders?? The big difference between the two is how recent the Holocaust occured. People still talk about it regularly. Mordern nations were involved. The Crusades is history. Something more of legend. Also, the crusades were a group of people fighting another group of people... war. War happens. Hitler, a military leader, waged war on a religious people. That just doesn't seems as fair does it?

did i not say? things do not come out of nowhere, yes, but if you would please look up the miller/ urey expirement you'll see that rna did not come from nowhere.

if came from a collection of gasses and liquids, plus lightning.



what you are suggesting is that one person, or being, can, by his will, create millions of tons of energy, from nothing?

Oh, so now you're saying everything came from a collection of gases, liquids, and lightening. Humm.... and where did that come from??

And I AM SAYING THAT EXACTLY But he's not necessarily creating it from nothing. He's creating it from himself.

[Spirited Away]

If you don't believe in God or the bible, you're rejecting him. Simple. I'm not trying to judge, you... I'm defending my beliefs and explaining what I know. So you can either say you know about god and how loving he is or you can accept that maybe you need to do a little work getting to know God before you get free favors from him.

That's your assumption, not a fact . You may explain what you know, but don't assume to know everything that God does. You can't answer all questions to life, therefore, you can't assume to answer for what God will do. Yes, He answers through the Bible and Bible is law or standards for Christians, but even our human laws waiver at times because of the human condition.

Please, refrain from saying that I need any favors from God, let alone free favors. Please. That is the most despicable, degrading, arrogant thing I've heard since some silliness from God I and God II topics. You ask for free favors, I--being Agnostic--ask only for proof of the Christian God exsitence. No more, no less.

Also, it doesn't matter what a person says if they're crazy. If I run around town and pee on every pink objectI see and say Bush told me to do it that doesn't prove anything... except that I'm crazy.

Right, crazy depends on who? Humans? I don't mean to offend, only to prove a point, but I think there are a lot of Atheists out there who think saints, what not, are crazy, too.

Who says people don't condemn the Crusaders?? The big difference between the two is how recent the Holocaust occured. People still talk about it regularly. Mordern nations were involved. The Crusades is history. Something more of legend. Also, the crusades were a group of people fighting another group of people... war. War happens. Hitler, a military leader, waged war on a religious people. That just doesn't seems as fair does it?

... The Crusades is history do not mean they didn't exist. It is NO legend, why would it be? Because it happens so long ago that it didn't happened? How a bout the birth of Christ, that must have been a legend too because it happened so long ago.

There is NO DIFFERENCE. WWI and WWII is history and we do talk about it. You learn about the Crusades in World History class, or at least I hope everyone learns of it or else your educational facility is taking away a part of history from you.

Fair? White persecuted Blacks didn't seem fair. Racism in general isnt' fair. Crusaders killing and murdering people in the name of God didn't seem fair either. So what's your point?

[sadolakced acid]

explain. how did god make the world?

please include how all species were formed, and explinations for embryology and the fossil record, which cannot be denied.

[miss barnes]

i believe in god's creation. but i also believe in evolution. meaning like he created us (as humans not primates), but other things, like bugs or animals or reptiles, evolved.

yea...that pretty much sums up how i feel

[Azn Kid from NY]

man these hardcore religous people are a joke....can u please just OPEN UR EYES and think for a second!!!

priests, ministers, all of them are the biggest hypocrite in the world....

[boredboy]

o i definatly believe in creation cus think about the chicken and the egg thing so hope this helps

[picaso_smile]

That's your assumption, not a fact . You may explain what you know, but don't assume to know everything that God does. You can't answer all questions to life, therefore, you can't assume to answer for what God will do. Yes, He answers through the Bible and Bible is law or standards for Christians, but even our human laws waiver at times because of the human condition.

Oh fae, people don't respect hypocrites. You're getting very close to the edge. And this is somewhat annoying. For not knowing God, or believing in him for that matter, you sure have a lot to say about him and his motives. How can you know so much about him if you also don't believe he exists?



Acid-- Here it is; This is how God made the world. Verse by verse.....

001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was
upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon
the face of the waters.
001:003 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
001:004 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the
light from the darkness.
001:005 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called
Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
001:006 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the
waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
001:007 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were
under the firmament from the waters which were above the
firmament: and it was so.
001:008 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the
morning were the second day.
001:009 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered
together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it
was so.
001:010 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together
of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
001:011 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb
yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his
kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
001:012 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed
after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in
itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
001:013 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
001:014 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the
heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for
signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
001:015 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to
give light upon the earth: and it was so.
001:016 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars
also.
001:017 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light
upon the earth,
001:018 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the
light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
001:019 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
001:020 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth
in the open firmament of heaven.
001:021 And God created great whales, and every living creature that
moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their
kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that
it was good.
001:022 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and
fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the
earth.
001:023 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
001:024 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
earth after his kind: and it was so.
001:025 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle
after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth
after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
001:026 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.
001:027 [b]So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.[b/]
001:028 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
001:029 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree,
in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it
shall be for meat.
001:030 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air,
and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there
is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was
so.
001:031 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was
very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
002:001 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host
of them.
002:002 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he
had made.
.........and it goes on from there............



This is an exerpt of an article quoting a medical illustrator at the university of Iowa

Ron has worked as senior medical illustrator at the University of Iowa, as medical art consultant at the University of Virginia, and has been called on to produce medical, scientific, and graphic illustrations for textbooks, journals, and courtroom use. In 1992 he was chosen to appear on a television show which featured his work among the talents and resources in America’s state of Virginia.

But with all his knowledge about the anatomy of humans and animals, Ron admits there is one area where medical artists have little to work from. When it comes to re-creating exactly what extinct creatures looked like, or what those allegedly ‘transitional’ creatures between apes and humans supposedly looked like, science doesn’t know, so artists are expected to fill in the blank spots.

‘No one knows for sure what they looked like’, Ron said. ‘So the artist has the freedom to “create” with colours and forms.’

Ron was once commissioned—with another artist, a medical doctor—to produce a huge number of illustrations for a major college biology textbook—Raven and Johnson’s Biology. The drawings included one of ‘Lucy’ (the creature which some evolutionists believe was a pre-human ancestor).

‘I was given the task of re-creating the anatomy and structures of so-called “prehistoric” animals, mammals and humans. I didn’t really know whether to make it this way or that way, because there was nothing concrete to go by’, Ron recalled.

In one chapter of that biology book, Ron’s drawings were used to supposedly picture the evolution of man and animals.

‘I was told to make the illustrations either more or less human or modern—whatever the subject was. I was pleased as an artist to have the freedom to create a drawing no one could question, because they didn’t know for sure themselves what the creature looked like. But I was uncomfortable as a Christian to be told that they wanted more “ape-like” or more “human-like” qualities.’

Ron said that with any illustration of ‘normal’ anatomy, he can turn it, twist it, and picture it in any position while keeping it anatomically correct. But generating a drawing of a chimp-like australopithecine fossil (like the famous ‘Lucy’), for instance, was different.

Ron points out that the soft parts of a body, such as lips, nose, skin colour, and hair, are impossible to re-create with certainty from bones. He was asked to alter his picture of ‘Lucy’ to conform with the evolutionary transitional creature which the biology textbook’s authors wanted.

‘I added more body hair, and did another sketch. “No”, they said, “she’s got to have more this and more that.” I just kept adding and subtracting until I got what they wanted.’

Although Ron produced the drawing which the authors and publisher wanted, he did get his own subtle comment into it for fun.

‘To give her an “attitude”, I had her carrying a big stick. She is looking right out at you, and to me she is saying the same thing as so many modern-day women—“I walk softly and carry a big stick!” The whole evolutionary thing is just like illustrating fiction anyway. It has to be “made up”, because there’s no fact to it.’

He said this is something he wants to emphasize to students in particular. ‘They can’t believe everything they see in textbooks, because it’s not always the truth.’

The full can be found here



On the flooding of the Earth many say is impossible

Many Christians today claim that the Flood of Noah’s time was only a local flood. They claim it was confined to somewhere around the Mesopotamian region and never really covered the whole earth. The discovery of a layer of mud by archaeologists in the Middle East and more recently the finding of evidence for a local flood in the Black Sea have both been claimed as evidence for a (local) biblical flood.

People generally want a local flood because they have accepted the widely believed evolutionary history of the earth, which interprets the fossils under our feet as the history of the sequential appearance of life over eons of time.

Scientists once understood the fossils (which are buried in water-carried sediments of mud and sand) to be mostly the result of the great Flood. Those who now accept the evolutionary billions of years of gradual accumulation of fossils have, in their way of thinking, explained away the evidence for the Flood—hence their belief in a local flood, or none at all. If they would think from a biblical perspective, they would see the abundant evidence for the Flood. As someone quipped, ‘I wouldn’t have seen it if I hadn’t believed it.’

The full of it can be found herehere



A little on the flood and iceage

The climate change following the Genesis Flood provides a likely catastrophic mechanism for an ice age. The Flood was a tremendous tectonic and volcanic event. Large amounts of volcanic aerosols would remain in the atmosphere following the Flood, generating a large temperature drop over land by reflecting much solar radiation back to space. Volcanic aerosols would likely be replenished in the atmosphere for hundreds of years following the Flood, due to high post-Flood volcanism, which is indicated in Pleistocene sediments. 7 The moisture would be provided by strong evaporation from a much warmer ocean, following the Flood. The warm ocean is a consequence of a warmer pre-Flood climate and the release of hot subterranean water during the eruption of "all the fountains of the great deep" (Genesis 7:11). The added quantity of water must have been large to cover all the pre-Flood mountains, which were lower than today. Evaporation over the ocean is proportional to how cool, dry, and unstable the air is, and how fast the wind blows. 8 Indirectly, it is proportional to sea surface temperature. A 10 degree C air-sea temperature difference, with a relative humidity of 50%, will evaporate seven times more water at a sea surface temperature of 30 degrees C than at 0 degrees C. Thus, the areas of greatest evaporation would be at higher latitudes and off the east coast of Northern Hemisphere continents. Focusing on northeast North America, the combination of cool land and warm ocean would cause the high level winds and a main storm track to be parallel to the east coast, by the thermal wind equation. 9 Storm after storm would develop near the eastern shoreline, similar to modern-day Northeasters, over the continent. Once a snow cover is established, more solar radiation is reflected back to space, reinforcing the cooling over land, and compensating the volcanic lulls.

See the rest here



A question... I'm now wondering this too

I have a question about the method of evolution: Most mutations are harmful and 2/3 of all mutations are recessive, yet we are told that we evolved because natural selection chose helpful mutations by eliminating those which are harmful. If anyone knows how natural selection could eliminate recessive mutations, please tell me.

To see more on this source click here



I can't find this on the web for you all to look at but I'll explain it the best I can from memory... I was reading Time or some similar magazine and I came across an article suggesting the existance of a soul. Basicly, there have been many reposrted cases of people, mostly in the hospital, who have an "out of body" experiance. They see themselves, as if they're floating up. The really odd thing is all the machines ect. that they were hooked up to showed no brain power. None. Now brian waves at all. So how could this be a haulucination? I found this very interesting...



Also, what about all the people claiming to "see the light" after a near death experiance? Seeing family members, friends, or realatives...? How could so many see the same thing if it was fake? And please do not say that some million people are lying.........



And yes I can believe this. As for the arguement of evolutionism... the fossified evidence... The scientists can't even come to an agreement about any one of these fossils. Too many different theories. Soooo... untill you can prove creationism wrong, stop insaulting it. Surely something so "crazy" or "insignificant" could easily be proved false??
Yeah, except it hasn't.


Oh, and BoredBoy... what exactly d oyu mean by that? I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at with that one.......

That's all for now.

[sadolakced acid]

001:026 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.

did god just admit there is more than one god, and they all look like him?


` Fossils are not detailed drawings like we want them to be. they're narrow snapshots of something. Fossils are hard to interprete, but there is no denying the evidence when you find it. Evolution can be traced in bone structure.

`your verse by verse explination did not explain how fossils were formed and about embryology- for instance why human embryos have tails.

` there is not enough water to cover the earth. yes, even if all the ice melted. in fact, the water level would FALL if the ice melted, and the mountains weren't tall (like you said)

`contrastly, the mountains were TALLER. not the same as you think tho. the old mountains, the small, worn ones were once majestic and tall like the rockies...

now, even if you were to melt all the water in all the ice caps and glaciers, if you were to take all the water in every living thing and all the water in the air and add it to the oceans, you still can't cover the earth.

`" I have a question about the method of evolution: Most mutations are harmful and 2/3 of all mutations are recessive, yet we are told that we evolved because natural selection chose helpful mutations by eliminating those which are harmful. If anyone knows how natural selection could eliminate recessive mutations, please tell me. "

you said you took biology. now let's pretend for a second you have dated someone before, i don't know if you have. now; would you have dated them if they had a mutation? probably not, right?

bad mutations GRADUALLY fade.

and your talks about seeing the light, etc. i'm not saying that's wrong. no one knows what happens.

"
And yes I can believe this. As for the arguement of evolutionism... the fossified evidence... The scientists can't even come to an agreement about any one of these fossils. Too many different theories. Soooo... untill you can prove creationism wrong, stop insaulting it. Surely something so "crazy" or "insignificant" could easily be proved false??
Yeah, except it hasn't."

except your version has. you just refuse the evidence.

` fossil record- you try to deny it, but fail. because it stil remains, skeletons of ape like humans and human like apes were found, and are found.

` embryology- you haven't adressed this- but when you were a fetus you had a tail and gills... like a tadpole. we all did.

` evolution has been proven more than the fact that there is magma in the earth.



you know, i think you cling to your beliefs because you're afraid they might be right.

[picaso_smile]

001:026 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.

did god just admit there is more than one god, and they all look like him?


` Fossils are not detailed drawings like we want them to be. they're narrow snapshots of something. Fossils are hard to interprete, but there is no denying the evidence when you find it. Evolution can be traced in bone structure.

`your verse by verse explination did not explain how fossils were formed and about embryology- for instance why human embryos have tails.

` there is not enough water to cover the earth. yes, even if all the ice melted. in fact, the water level would FALL if the ice melted, and the mountains weren't tall (like you said)

`contrastly, the mountains were TALLER. not the same as you think tho. the old mountains, the small, worn ones were once majestic and tall like the rockies...

now, even if you were to melt all the water in all the ice caps and glaciers, if you were to take all the water in every living thing and all the water in the air and add it to the oceans, you still can't cover the earth.

`" I have a question about the method of evolution: Most mutations are harmful and 2/3 of all mutations are recessive, yet we are told that we evolved because natural selection chose helpful mutations by eliminating those which are harmful. If anyone knows how natural selection could eliminate recessive mutations, please tell me. "

you said you took biology. now let's pretend for a second you have dated someone before, i don't know if you have. now; would you have dated them if they had a mutation? probably not, right?

bad mutations GRADUALLY fade.

and your talks about seeing the light, etc. i'm not saying that's wrong. no one knows what happens.

"
And yes I can believe this. As for the arguement of evolutionism... the fossified evidence... The scientists can't even come to an agreement about any one of these fossils. Too many different theories. Soooo... untill you can prove creationism wrong, stop insaulting it. Surely something so "crazy" or "insignificant" could easily be proved false??
Yeah, except it hasn't."

except your version has. you just refuse the evidence.

` fossil record- you try to deny it, but fail. because it stil remains, skeletons of ape like humans and human like apes were found, and are found.

` embryology- you haven't adressed this- but when you were a fetus you had a tail and gills... like a tadpole. we all did.

` evolution has been proven more than the fact that there is magma in the earth.



you know, i think you cling to your beliefs because you're afraid they might be right.

` I didn't say I was explaining embryology

` did you not see the part about the flood NOT covering the earth but insted a section??

` how would you know what the mountains looked like?

` I didn't say I took biology...

` Who says I wouldn't date someone with a mutation... nice how you assume you know me. yeah.

` What do you mean no one knows what happens... people know they saw a light.

` Ape-like humans... I'm not denying fossils exist. I'm debating the meaning. Who says God didn't create them and then humans? And if no one can agree what they mean or how anything happened of what importance is it?

` Maybe the tail and gills were adaptations from when the earth (OR A PART) was flooded

`it's been proven... hummm...and how? My point is you don't know what happened millions of years ago. You can infer and put clues together..... but you can't prove anything.


What do I have to be afraid of? If God doesn't exist I've lived a good life and I'll never know the difference because I'll be dead...

[Spirited Away]

Oh fae, people don't respect hypocrites. You're getting very close to the edge. And this is somewhat annoying. For not knowing God, or believing in him for that matter, you sure have a lot to say about him and his motives. How can you know so much about him if you also don't believe he exists?

First, note (for the umpteenth times to those who have been in this forum for a while) that I am Agnostic Humanist who agrees with some Deistic ideas. Meaning, I do not disbelieve the existence of a Creator.

Second, I'm not quite sure what you mean about my having a lot to say about God and His motives because what I say is merely a REPEAT of what Christians, like you and those even more pushy, shove in my face everyday. Those are not my words, those are Christians' words. I logically interpret them.

Third, I don't need respect. Period. Respect from some people is truly an honor, while from some others is not wanted or needed.

[picaso_smile]

Second, I'm not quite sure what you mean about my having a lot to say about God and His motives because what I say is merely a REPEAT of what Christians, like you and those even more pushy, shove in my face everyday. Those are not my words, those are Christians' words. I logically interpret them.

If they were a Christian's words then why would Christians (mainly me) be disagreeing with them? Please do not use those "pushy" Christian's words against me because they do not speak for me (and probably other Christians, too)

[Spirited Away]

If they were a Christian's words then why would Christians (mainly me) be disagreeing with them? Please do not use those "pushy" Christian's words against me because they do not speak for me (and probably other Christians, too)

... I don't think you quite understand. Let me elaborate.

For example, Christians say that God is loving. I don't think allowing good people to even though they live their life as they believe they should to Hell is loving. So that's how I interpret it.

Other Christians do not speak for you, they speak for their religion... which is Christianity.

[sadolakced acid]

AS LONG AS ANY PERSON PUSHES CHRISTIANITY IN MY FACE, THEIR WORDS ARE THE WORDS OF ALL CHRISTIANS. LIVE WITH IT. I HAVE TO LIVE WITH STUPID CHRISTIANS AND THEIR RIGHTOUS "JESUS LOVES YOU" SHIT, CAN'T YOU LIVE WITH SOME "SO DOES MICHAEL JACKSON" PEOPLE LIKE ME? THEY'RE VOICE IS FOREVER THE VOICE OF CHRIST TO ME. THIER EFFING OBNOXIOUS SELF RIGHTIOUS VOICE!

there... blew off a little steam. ` i apologize to all christians offended by this, and non christians (why would you be offended tho? ) except if you're one of thoes self rightoues 'jesus loves you' people. you know who you are.

now... picaso smile...

1. explain embryology. from bible verses, if you may.
2. i'm sorry... the bible said the flood covered the entire earth. are you saying the bible's wrong? blasphomous!
3. anyone who's taken any form of geology can tell you that mountains were higher then. but i suppose you won't belive that.
4. you didn't say you took biology, but you said you understood what evolution was. now, how can you tell me how evolution is flawed if you don't understand natural selection, or haven't held casts of lucy's skull and an oragutan's and a humans and compared them?
5. i can say i saw jesus and michael jackson together... does that make it true? did you know that i can make you see a light by adding chemicals to your blood?
6. haha. go be a good christian. thank you for polluting our gene pool. but you cannot deny you'd be less atracted to someone with a mutation. you wouldn't be human if you said you wouldn't be.
7. the bible doesn't say that man changed (oh wait is that evolution?) after god created him. what's this... again going agains the holy book?
8. i'm sorry. truely. i was under the presumption that you knew all about evolution. now where would i get that idea? " I'm aware of everything you said, yes I've taken health and science" - now i see you're not talking about real health and science where you actually learn everything.

so i guess i have to explain this. simply.

it is proven. in laboratory settings.

A) Richared E. Lunski and colleges at Michigan State followed E. coli through 20,000 generations and watched as it formed a new strand of E.coli

B) the Flu virus has an evolutionary tree, which is traced from the 1900s or so, and can be seen to evolve along the tree. they are so different that a vaccine for one won't work for another.
now, you might say this is just viruses, so more:

C) William R. Rice and George W. Salt tracked 35 generations of fruit flys, and saw them changed. In fact, they had two groups of flys that ended up so different they couldn't cross breed.

now, you might say this is just flys, so more:

D) Peter and Rosemary Grant spent decades studying finches in the galapados islands.... and tracked changes in beaks in response to the environment.

and you might say this is only birds, so more:
E) There is a gene, resessive. it's in about 60% of caucasians, and %1 of asian/ africans. why? because this gene gives immunity to the bubonic plague. if you have both, you never get the plauge. the bubonic plague was only prevalent in europe.

F) the same gene from above gives a certain resistance to HIV. it slows the infection. Also, if you have both ressesives, you don't get HIV (this one isn't as proven... still ongoing. )

please try to understand evolution and natural selection before you say it's not proven or it's just a guess.



9. you're afraid you're right. you try to live a good life, but you know you sin. is the confession good enough? you know you have sinned. did you give back enough to save your soul? do you plan on having kids? is not that sin?

if you are right, then your life was worthless, meaningless. because god controled it. you will spend eternity in heaven, with god. but is this what you really want?

deep down, you're just scared you're right.

(you're going to say 'wonderful how you know how i feel' again. well, you did the same when you said i was afraid that christianity was right. )


_ please do some research before saying things that are blantantly wrong... like evolution hasn't been proven. _

`edit... before i get tones of flames... i apologize for any offending i may have done. unless you deserve to be offended. you know who you are. `

This post has been edited by sadolakced acid: Dec 18 2004, 02:43 AM

[demolished]

i belive in creatation and evolutions .... during the time of " before criss " humans were like ape .. and their back are downwards ..when time pass by, humans became to change by evolutions. but .. how did human first appear in the world ? itsb becuase of creations, someibne has to make them in order to exist "

omg, i dont make sense .. but i'm trying to make a point ..

[aznxdreamer]

i believe in a mixture of those two together.

[sunissed14127]

i think creation & evolution both had a hand in creating us.

[doubleaxel1951]

Most definetly creation. Evolution is a series of "chaces" and "what ifs" some how a single celled organism turned into us. also, evolution says things will evolve to turn into something better, if it's true then how come we've been the same for millions of years?!

[sadolakced acid]

evolution takes time... a long time.

it is not merely a series of chances... it's what the environment does...

somehow one single cell turned into us... is that so hard? it is what happens when babies are made.

And we are evolving. in case you didn't notice. each generation has become taller than the last. genetic diseases, if not recessive, start to become eliminated.

in addition, eveyone evolves defences against disease... this is why vaccines work, and why chicken pox is usually a one time thing...