god, part 2 Options

[sikdragon]

Evil is in our nature because our ancestor chose to sin. And because of sin there is suffering and death. All disease comes from sin. With this satan has challenged God's authority. God cannot cure alzheimers in every case because that wouldn't solve anything and we won't let him. We put our faith in ourselves rather than putting faith in God to use us to get what we need. He uses every disease for the greater good. Cancer survivors are an inspiration to us all, especially those who are still suffering.

Nothing evil comes directly from God. Evil exists when his creation chooses to reject him and push him away.

Until the 1900's the mass majority of americans were christian and oh how this country prospered. As our country has become more evil seperating God from everything that we do, there has been more and more tragedy.

[hiromah]

hmmmmm

[Spirited Away]

Evil is in our nature because our ancestor chose to sin. And because of sin there is suffering and death.  All disease comes from sin. With this satan has challenged God's authority. God cannot cure alzheimers in every case because that wouldn't solve anything and we won't let him.

So, we must bear the consequence of our ancestor's actions? WoW!! What an eye opener. I've always thought that it is so wrong to blame other people for something that their parents had done or their relatives had done to you.

*Sigh*, did I ask for a cure to Alzheimer, or did I ONLY ask for clean water and land to grow food? And why wouldn't it solve anything by curing Alzheimer? It would spare a lot of people from suffering.

We put our faith in ourselves rather than putting faith in God to use us to get what we need. He uses every disease for the greater good. Cancer survivors are an inspiration to us all, especially those who are still suffering.

So now YOU'RE the one saying that the end justify the means. Mant cancer survivors didn't do it on their own, they have love from family and friends and their will to live to urge them to keep on trying. If God were helpful, He would get rid of cancer altogether.

Cancer survivor inspires us, and what does death by cancer do to us? It wrenches our hearts if the person dead, or suffering, is a loved one.

Nothing evil comes directly from God. Evil exists when his creation chooses to reject him and push him away.

You said that we were born sinful. You said so yourself that it is in our nature to be impure and decadent. If it is in our nature, it is something not learned, but born with. God gave us life and gave us the bad nature that you've been saying that we have.

Until the 1900's the mass majority of americans were christian and oh how this country prospered. As our country has become more evil seperating God from everything that we do, there has been more and more tragedy.  

I can also say that it is because of non-Christians and those who thirst to have more knowledge, more substantial knowledge and wouldn't settle for what the Bible says, that science have advanced at this rate.

Tell me more about these tragedies. I don't see anything wrong with our country or our people.

And sure Christianity was the mass majority, but there was also slavery. So, what does this say about the Christians?

[CrimsonArchangel]

hmmmmm

Don't spam.

Our WILL is in our hands, not God's (thus free will), so if He's putting positives ideas in our heads, that wouldn't be free will, would it?

Oh, no. It is still free will. In my opinion, helping others in need that cannot do anything about their situation is common sense. But that doesn't mean everyone chooses to follow common sense. God may put the good ideas in our heads, but we choose to either follow them or reject them, so that is still free will.

Man makes wars and can stop wars. God made the universe, but the earth is lacking resources (land to grow crops in poorer countries) and is still lacking... How I see this is: God isn't helping.

Yes, he may not be helping directly, but, how I see it, is that he is indirectly. There are still a few, (please note, a few) good people out there that do want to help. I really don't want to sound... what's the word... stereotypical or something, but, many of the relief agencies out there have some sort of christian background or something close to one. Perhaps God is helping through them. And also, there is science. God may not poof down and say, here, have water and food, but there are scientists that are finding ways to get water and food to those who need it. For example, in a country in Latin America (sorry, forgot which one), there are very few places where people can get clean water, but since they live high in the mountains, there is a lot of fog. So a scientist who had grown up there deviced a water-catching net. The net absorved the fog moisture and voila, the people had drinkable water. The scientist was christian.

So you see, God himself may not come down and help, but people are doing through him. Again, this goes back to your belief of self-worth. God wants people to know that they are capable of many things. If He just did everything, then people would forget that they themselves can make a difference and they would just expect God to do everything for them. This doesn't mean that He is not all-powerful. It just means that He wants his children to know that they can do things themselves when it is whithin they're reach. When nothing at all can be done, then I guess that is when God will poof down and help. But as long as humans can still think and work with they're own two hands, God will allow them to do so, with his inspiration and help.

[sikdragon]

So, we must bear the consequence of our ancestor's actions? WoW!! What an eye opener. I've always thought that it is so wrong to blame other people for something that their parents had done or their relatives had done to you.

*Sigh*, did I ask for a cure to Alzheimer, or did I ONLY ask for clean water and land to grow food? And why wouldn't it solve anything by curing Alzheimer? It would spare a lot of people from suffering.

It is the fault of our ancestor for our inclination toward evil acts. We can still choose to do the right thing.

You aren't looking at the big picture. There are more people affected than just the person with the disease.

So now YOU'RE the one saying that the end justify the means. Mant cancer survivors didn't do it on their own, they have love from family and friends and their will to live to urge them to keep on trying. If God were helpful, He would get rid of cancer altogether.

Cancer survivor inspires us, and what does death by cancer do to us? It wrenches our hearts if the person dead, or suffering, is a loved one.

im not saying the end justifies the means. God can't answer every prayer of healing, that would not help the bigger and more dangerous disease, sin. That person would be go to meet their fate. The loved one is hurt but hurt makes character. Makes the person stronger.

You said that we were born sinful. You said so yourself that it is in our nature to be impure and decadent. If it is in our nature, it is something not learned, but born with. God gave us life and gave us the bad nature that you've been saying that we have.

We are born with it, but are innocent until we reach an age where the difference between good and bad can be discerned. Sin is rebellion against God, you cannot sin until you know what you are doing.

[sikdragon]

slavery??? why do you say that like it's a bad thing? My ancestors were enslaved. That wasn't what made it bad, it was the prejudices of those ignorant plantation owners. To claim you are a Christian and to practice Christianity are two completely different things.

[Spirited Away]

It is the fault of our ancestor for our inclination toward evil acts. We can still choose to do the right thing.

You aren't looking at the big picture. There are more people affected than just the person with the disease.

I said suffering. I did not say suffer-er. Suffering refers to those who are the victims as well as the victims loved ones who suffer the pain of loss. I am looking at the big picture, but it is you who refuse to acknowledge the fact that I am.

Our ancestor was created with sin. He sins because God created him with sinful nature.

im not saying the end justifies the means. God can't answer every prayer of healing, that would not help the bigger and more dangerous disease, sin. That person would be go to meet their fate. The loved one is hurt but hurt makes character. Makes the person stronger.

Yes, said implied the end justify the means when you said "He uses every disease for the greater good". Meaning, it doesn't matter if people died or suffer, because in the end, it will be for the better.

People sin because they are greedy. They greed for food/laziness/wealth/life. But not everyone sin the same. A white lie is different from a lie that actually harms someone.

Yes, what doesn't kill me will make me stronger, but while getting through it helps me, the person the disease is killing is dead. It didn't make the person stronger, it made them die.

We are born with it, but are innocent until we reach an age where the difference between good and bad can be discerned. Sin is rebellion against God, you cannot sin until you know what you are doing.

There you go again. We're born with sin, that means God gave us sin that is innocent until we reach an age to decipher good from bad. But in the end, we make the choice of good and bad. I choose to believe that a white lie that will save someone over a lie that harms someone which is good over bad. God gave me this nature, and He will punish me for acting on it???

slavery??? why do you say that like it's a bad thing? My ancestors were enslaved. That wasn't what made it bad, it was the prejudices of those ignorant plantation owners. To claim you are a Christian and to practice Christianity are two completely different things.

Slavery in the history of America was bad, that was the context that we were using afterall. If your ancestor was Black and was enslaved, then we would be on the same page.

Anyway, to claim one is Christian isn't the same as practicing Christian? How is Christian defined? Of course people will worship different ways, but how is your way the right one or any better than their way? How are you more Christian than another Christian?


TO Angel:

Oh, no. It is still free will. In my opinion, helping others in need that cannot do anything about their situation is common sense. But that doesn't mean everyone chooses to follow common sense. God may put the good ideas in our heads, but we choose to either follow them or reject them, so that is still free will.

So, how can one tell if it's God or common sense? According to Christians, the voice of conscience is God. According to non-believers a good conscience simply means doing good things.

Yes, he may not be helping directly, but, how I see it, is that he is indirectly. There are still a few, (please note, a few) good people out there that do want to help. I really don't want to sound... what's the word... stereotypical or something, but, many of the relief agencies out there have some sort of christian background or something close to one.

Hmm, it doesn't take a relief agency to helpl the poor. Sure, in America there are Christian agencies, in other countries, there may be relief agencies that are non-Christian or simply free of ANY religious affiliation, even background wise. Or even just a simple man who shares food with a hungry neighbor can be considered good and that man may not be Christian.

Perhaps God is helping through them. And also, there is science. God may not poof down and say, here, have water and food, but there are scientists that are finding ways to get water and food to those who need it. For example, in a country in Latin America (sorry, forgot which one), there are very few places where people can get clean water, but since they live high in the mountains, there is a lot of fog. So a scientist who had grown up there deviced a water-catching net. The net absorved the fog moisture and voila, the people had drinkable water. The scientist was christian.

So are you implying that God sends scientists to discover food and water for us? Then wouldn't it make sense to say that God also created the scientists who are trying to prove Him wrong? I mean to say that is rather problematic to say that God created one group of people and not the other.

There are plenty of non-Christian scientists in the world who have done good or contributed something to the scientific world.

So you see, God himself may not come down and help, but people are doing through him.

So God is taking credit for those who done good but Satan is to blame for those who've done bad?

There is a quote floating somewhere on the net relative to this part of our discussion. It goes something like "when humans make a mistake, it's evil. When God makes a mistake, it's nature".

I still don't understand how God created us with a sinful nature, but is considered all good.

Again, this goes back to your belief of self-worth. God wants people to know that they are capable of many things. If He just did everything, then people would forget that they themselves can make a difference and they would just expect God to do everything for them. This doesn't mean that He is not all-powerful. It just means that He wants his children to know that they can do things themselves when it is whithin they're reach. When nothing at all can be done, then I guess that is when God will poof down and help. But as long as humans can still think and work with they're own two hands, God will allow them to do so, with his inspiration and help.

It may not seem like it to you or others who have not lived in poverty because you all live in the mordern age of convenience. But to those who knew poverty intimately, know the pain of not being able to anything, including feeding one's children. There are people in waring countries or those living in poverty who cannot help their circumstances no matter what they do. If God can bade men to help those in need, then why is there still many who are in need?

[sikdragon]

I said suffering. I did not say suffer-er. Suffering refers to those who are the victims as well as the victims loved ones who suffer the pain of loss. I am looking at the big picture, but it is you who refuse to acknowledge the fact that I am.

Our ancestor was created with sin. He sins because God created him with sinful nature.

Our ancestor was not created with a sinful nature. He did not have the knowledge of good and evil until he ate of the fruit.

Yes, said implied the end justify the means when you said "He uses every disease for the greater good". Meaning, it doesn't matter if people died or suffer, because in the end, it will be for the better.

People sin because they are greedy. They greed for food/laziness/wealth/life. But not everyone sin the same. A white lie is different from a lie that actually harms someone.

Yes, what doesn't kill me will make me stronger, but while getting through it helps me, the person the disease is killing is dead. It didn't make the person stronger, it made them die.

A white lie is different to humans, but to God it is the same as killing someone, because it is equally rebelling against him.

God can only work with what he is given. NOT to say he isn't all powerful, it is because he chooses not to.The person who is dead has lived their life and faces judgement for the cleanliness of his or her soul. Everybody dies.

Slavery in the history of America was bad, that was the context that we were using afterall. If your ancestor was Black and was enslaved, then we would be on the same page.

Anyway, to claim one is Christian isn't the same as practicing Christian? How is Christian defined? Of course people will worship different ways, but how is your way the right one or any better than their way? How are you more Christian than another Christian?

to be christian you must be in Christ. People can say they are Christian and go to church but aren't really in Christ.
IT's not my way it is God's way. The ONLY way into heaven is through Christ.
I never said I was any more anything than anybody. Except maybe informed.

[Spirited Away]

Our ancestor was not created with a sinful nature. He did not have the knowledge of good and evil until he ate of the fruit.

What made him eat the fruit? If it is NOT in his nature to rebel or be curious, then why would he eat the fruit, hmmmmmm?

A white lie is different to humans, but to God it is the same as killing someone, because it is equally rebelling against him.

Exactly. So go ahead and not lie while someone is being killed. I don't care if I will go to Hell if I can save someone by lying. That's just mean that Hell will be a less evil place because more and more good, nice, caring people are going to it.

God can only work with what he is given. NOT to say he isn't all powerful, it is because he chooses not to.The person who is dead has lived their life and faces judgement for the cleanliness of his or her soul. Everybody dies.

What about sick babies or children who die early? They haven't truly lived. Ah, because God chooses not to do all that He can to stop suffering that there is suffering. Suffering is a result of evil, so God is indirectly allowing evil to exist in the hearts of humans. So, is it really our fault that there is evil?

to be christian you must be in Christ. People can say they are Christian and go to church but aren't really in Christ.
IT's not my way it is God's way. The ONLY way into heaven is through Christ.
I never said I was any more anything than anybody.  Except maybe informed.

And what is God's way? Sure, there are those who believes in Christ, but question the Bible. What then? You may say that the Bible is God's words, but those words are conveniently called metaphors when its answers are no longer valid as new discoveries are made.

So, once more, there are those who believes in Christ but not the Bible. What about those that believes in God but not in Christ? What makes Jesus the Son of God? Is it because He said so? Or is it also something in the Bible that made it "fact", when in fact (no pun intended) it is just a metaphor?

Meaning, could it be that Jesus said "Son" to mean that we're ALL God's son and daughters since we are all His creation?

So, what is metaphor and what is fact?

[sikdragon]

What made him eat the fruit? If it is NOT in his nature to rebel or be curious, then why would he eat the fruit, hmmmmmm?

The snake in the garden who was evil convinced eve to, then eve gave the fruit to adam who trusted eve.

Exactly. So go ahead and not lie while someone is being killed. I don't care if I will go to Hell if I can save someone by lying. That's just mean that Hell will be a less evil place because more and more good, nice, caring people are going to it.

You can't save anyone by lying. there will be no good nice or caring people in hell. If you are referring to yourself, look how bitter you sound.

What about sick babies or children who die early? They haven't truly lived. Ah, because God chooses not to do all that He can to stop suffering that there is suffering. Suffering is a result of evil, so God is indirectly allowing evil to exist in the hearts of humans. So, is it really our fault that there is evil?

The sick babies and children get to go to heaven without facing temptation. It isn't our fault there is evil. It is our fault that we are evil.

And what is God's way? Sure, there are those who believes in Christ, but question the Bible. What then? You may say that the Bible is God's words, but those words are conveniently called metaphors when its answers are no longer valid as new discoveries are made.

So, once more, there are those who believes in Christ but not the Bible. What about those that believes in God but not in Christ? What makes Jesus the Son of God? Is it because He said so? Or is it also something in the Bible that made it "fact", when in fact (no pun intended) it is just a metaphor?

Meaning, could it be that Jesus said "Son" to mean that we're ALL God's son and daughters since we are all His creation?

So, what is metaphor and what is fact?

You cannot be in Christ and still question the Bible. When you know God and have faith there will be no doubts unless you choose to fall away. Jesus is the son of God because that is how it has always been since the beginning.

Let's say the sun is bright. Someone tells another person that the sun is blinding. You don't actually go blind when you glance at it. It is just a way to describe the brightness of the sun. You are not sounding very educated when you are assuming all metaphors are synonyms of superstitions.

Geez someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.....

[Spirited Away]

The snake in the garden who was evil convinced eve to, then eve gave the fruit to adam who trusted eve.

So, what's wrong with eating a fruit? Didn't God told him not to eat it? If he still eat it after told not to, it's in his nature to be curious and eat it to see what happens.

You can't save anyone by lying. there will be no good nice or caring people in hell. If you are referring to yourself, look how bitter you sound.

Yes, I'm quite bitter about people who stuff God down my throat. You'd be bitter too if someone tells you you're going to suffer a horrible fate for not believe the same as them. Haha.

Back to my example of how a white lie can save someone. Lets say rapists are chasing me and I meet you half way while you're running away from murders. You're in the same place as I when the murders and rapists reach us, but they couldn't see me because I'm hiding in the dark. The rapists ask you if you've seen a girl that ran past here... would you say "sure, and she's hiding right there"? Or would you tell them a lie to save me?

Or lets say it's not me, but a younger girl, about 10 or 12?

The sick babies and children get to go to heaven without facing temptation. It isn't our fault there is evil. It is our fault that we are evil.

But you said we're born evil.

You cannot be in Christ and still question the Bible. When you know God and have faith there will be no doubts unless you choose to fall away. Jesus is the son of God because that is how it has always been since the beginning.

Hmm, there are many Christians who question the Bible. Since the beginning? So then why did Jesus chose that time to come to earth and not, lets say, now when there is so much doubt and decadence in the world?

Let's say the sun is bright. Someone tells another person that the sun is blinding. You don't actually go blind when you glance at it. It is just a way to describe the brightness of the sun. You are not sounding very educated when you are assuming all metaphors are synonyms of superstitions.

HAHAHHAHAHA. If I care about someone thinking I'm intelligent and educated, I wouldn't be in this thread talking about God. Any intelligent person would steer away from conflict and avoid topics like religion. So, FYI, it doesn't matter if I seem educated to you or not, but just as long as I'm happy with my uneducated self, I have no problemo with it, mKay? I'm still in school and I'm still making good grades. I don't know if that means much, but I do write papers and get good scores on them. I think I've master basic grammar and composition for the last couple of years. If you want to debate about my education, you're welcome to open another thread.

Ah, very well done. What a poetic way to describe the sun, but unfortunately, it has nothing to do with "four corners" and "pillars". And, for the last 4-6 posts, I was hoping someone would tell me what those metaphors represent. How very disappointing that I got the "blinding sun" instead.

Geez someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.....

Nah, you know I'm just a bitter person.

[sikdragon]

So, what's wrong with eating a fruit? Didn't God told him not to eat it? If he still eat it after told not to, it's in his nature to be curious and eat it to see what happens.

It was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He wasn't even curious about the fruit until his wife brought it to him.

Yes, I'm quite bitter about people who stuff God down my throat. You'd be bitter too if someone tells you you're going to suffer a horrible fate for not believe the same as them. Haha.

Back to my example of how a white lie can save someone. Lets say rapists are chasing me and I meet you half way while you're running away from murders. You're in the same place as I when the murders and rapists reach us, but they couldn't see me because I'm hiding in the dark. The rapists ask you if you've seen a girl that ran past here... would you say "sure, and she's hiding right there"? Or would you tell them a lie to save me?

Or lets say it's not me, but a younger girl, about 10 or 12?

If i thought i could take them i would fight them and tell the girl to run. If i couldn't i would say im not sure what'd she look like after their answer i would ask if she was related to them in anyway. Keep talking vaguely like this until they threatened me or left. There are other ways other than lying.

But you said we're born evil. 

We are born with an evil nature, but we have a choice to go with that nature or to choose God.

Hmm, there are many Christians who question the Bible. Since the beginning? So then why did Jesus chose that time to come to earth and not, lets say, now when there is so much doubt and decadence in the world?

NO, i didnt say there aren't christians who question the Bible. Christians who are in Christ and know him personally do not question the Bible, unless they choose to let doubt overcome them.

HAHAHHAHAHA. If I care about someone thinking I'm intelligent and educated, I wouldn't be in this thread talking about God. Any intelligent person would steer away from conflict and avoid topics like religion. So, FYI, it doesn't matter if I seem educated to you or not, but just as long as I'm happy with my uneducated self, I have no problemo with it, mKay? I'm still in school and I'm still making good grades. I don't know if that means much, but I do write papers and get good scores on them. I think I've master basic grammar and composition for the last couple of years. If you want to debate about my education, you're welcome to open another thread.

Ah, very well done. What a poetic way to describe the sun, but unfortunately, it has nothing to do with "four corners" and "pillars". And, for the last 4-6 posts, I was hoping someone would tell me what those metaphors represent. How very disappointing that I got the "blinding sun" instead.

OK look at it this way, if you haven't seen pictures of the earth and had no idea it was round would you know? Imagine you are looking at a map. the four corners of that map.

I know you said it before, but where did you get the one about pillars?

[CrimsonArchangel]

Back to my example of how a white lie can save someone. Lets say rapists are chasing me and I meet you half way while you're running away from murders. You're in the same place as I when the murders and rapists reach us, but they couldn't see me because I'm hiding in the dark. The rapists ask you if you've seen a girl that ran past here... would you say "sure, and she's hiding right there"? Or would you tell them a lie to save me?

Or lets say it's not me, but a younger girl, about 10 or 12?

You place quite complicated and thought-provoking questions my child. You really have me thinking about that now. And I am going to have to agree with you on this one.

But you said we're born evil. 

I know it sounds harsh, but we are born with an evil nature. However, children don't know right from wrong until they can think rationally.

Hmm, there are many Christians who question the Bible.

I don't want this to sound like if I'm questioning my beliefs because I am deeply grounded on them, but I'm going to have to say that I'm one of those Christians that questions some parts of the Bible. I mean, there's a verse that says that women should be subordinate and should not speak in church and what not, and that the only way they will be saved is by childbirth. I mean come on. That really is rather harsh and wrong, IMO.

"four corners" and "pillars". And, for the last 4-6 posts, I was hoping someone would tell me what those metaphors represent.

About the pillars, I'm going to have to get back to you on that one. And about the four corners, it is nothing more than a way to represent North, South, East and West.

Nah, you know I'm just a bitter person. 

And it is quite funny how certain people make us that way.

According to Christians, the voice of conscience is God.

Well, I can tell you that not according to this Christian. At least not fully. How on Earth can a Christian argue that man has free will when they say that the conflicting thoughts in our heads are what God tells us to do? That's not free will to me. But God does influence our thoughts and we choose to accept them or not. I guess that is what I consider one's conscience: what you choose to do with whatever thoughts float around in your head.

Hmm, it doesn't take a relief agency to helpl the poor. Sure, in America there are Christian agencies, in other countries, there may be relief agencies that are non-Christian or simply free of ANY religious affiliation, even background wise. Or even just a simple man who shares food with a hungry neighbor can be considered good and that man may not be Christian.

Oh, I know. And I agree. I was just trying to say that while God himself might not come down to help, others are doing it in his name.

So are you implying that God sends scientists to discover food and water for us? Then wouldn't it make sense to say that God also created the scientists who are trying to prove Him wrong? I mean to say that is rather problematic to say that God created one group of people and not the other.

Not at all. He doesn't send them per se, but I think that's what they are there for. To help improve the world in some way. God created everyone. Including those that do not believe in him (not singling you out) and those that try to prove him wrong. Again its a matter of what you choose to do and what you choose to follow.

So God is taking credit for those who done good but Satan is to blame for those who've done bad?

I still don't understand how God created us with a sinful nature, but is considered all good.

About the first quote, it's hard to explain... I mean... for ages, all the bad things in the world, in any religion, have been attributed to some evil, mystical being (not necesarily Satan) and all good things to the opposite half. We have to count human nature as well. Yes, there's the whole thing going around that we are born evil and what not, but there are a few that can fight it and are truly good people, not necesarily having to believe in God...
About the second one, God did not create humans sinful. He created humans pure and perfect but it all changed in the garden of Eden when Eve allowed herself to be tempted. You don't have to believe this, but its just what I've been taught.

One more thing. What I've been taught is that Adam took the fruit from Eve because he felt that he would be alone for ever if she was destroyed for having fallen to temptation. He did not trust God enough to know that he would have created another partner for him.


That was a long post.

[Spirited Away]

[quote=sikdragon,Sep 28 2004, 4:42 PM] It was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He wasn't even curious about the fruit until his wife brought it to him. [/quote]
Ah HAH! The woman's the guilty party here! She's evil/curious!!! So then, who created the woman?

[quote]If i thought i could take them i would fight them and tell the girl to run. If i couldn't i would say im not sure what'd she look like after their answer i would ask if she was related to them in anyway. Keep talking vaguely like this until they threatened me or left. There are other ways other than lying.[/quote]

Wait, wait, remember that you're being chased by killers, too. That means, there are one group chasing you and one group chasing me. Lets make this more complicated and say that your group of murders got interested when they heard that there's a girl and would spare you unnecessary torture if you tell them where the girl was. Their interest is no longer in killing you, but in raping the girl and kill her. Your only escape is to tell them where the girl is and get free, or lie and save her life at the cost of yours.

Of course, they could just get in a brawl and forget about you both. But that depends on how fast you can pray and what plans God has for you.

I'm only asking this because the story is quite valid. You see, I've talked to many survivors... of all types of situations. This one is just one of the stories I've heard and has been altered just a bit. Tell me your reply and, if you're interested, I'll tell you what happened to the girl and the guy.

[quote]We are born with an evil nature, but we have a choice to go with that nature or to choose God.[/quote]

I don't understand. I agree that we can control our nature, if our will is strong. But lets go back one step. We're born with an evil nature, why?

[quote]NO, i didnt say there aren't christians who question the Bible. Christians who are in Christ and know him personally do not question the Bible, unless they choose to let doubt overcome them.[/quote]

So then we're back at one: faith. You have faith that the Bible is true and that Christ is the Son of God. I see. But you must understand that there are those who question such faith because they have faith of their own.

This is hard because it was God who gave us free will, and yet the Bible tells us what we should believe in. Isn't this contradictory? The Almighty tells you to think as you will (free will), but the Bible says believe in Christ.... This is what stumps me the most.

[quote]OK look at it this way, if you haven't seen pictures of the earth and had no idea it was round would you know? Imagine you are looking at a map. the four corners of that map.[/quote]

Maps need not to have four corners. Have you ever seen a globe map? They're everywhere in libraries.

[quote]I know you said it before, but where did you get the one about pillars?[/quote]

"Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (ydwmu) tremble."Job 9:6

"The earth and all its inhabitants are melting away; I set firm its pillars (ydwmu)." Psalm 75:3

"For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s and he had set the world upon them." I Samuel 2:8

I think they're all the book of Genesis.


Angel

[quote]You place quite complicated and thought-provoking questions my child.  You really have me thinking about that now. And I am going to have to agree with you on this one. [/quote]

It saddens me to think that there are though who wouldn't lie for the sake of others. I know that all sins are sins, and cannot be questioned, but surely God will know a white lie from a harmful lie.

Lying is bad in general and people do constantly, unconsciously. This IS bad. But there are gray areas, not just black and white.

[quote]I know it sounds harsh, but we are born with an evil nature. However, children don't know right from wrong until they can think rationally.[/quote]

Lets say that we're born evil, I will post the same question to you as I've asked Sik: why were we born evil?

[quote]I don't want this to sound like if I'm questioning my beliefs because I am deeply grounded on them, but I'm going to have to say that I'm one of those Christians that questions some parts of the Bible. I mean, there's a verse that says that women should be subordinate and should not speak in church and what not, and that the only way they will be saved is by childbirth. I mean come on. That really is rather harsh and wrong, IMO.[/quote]

Yes, and apparently, it's all because Eve gave Adam the apple. I think, the fault of Eve is why the Bible insists that women must bear the burden of consequence for this ancestor and be inferior. Which I agree as not fair.

[quote]About the pillars, I'm going to have to get back to you on that one. And about the four corners, it is nothing more than a way to represent North, South, East and West. [/quote]

I actually came across that answer from someone before, but I've formulated a thought against that, too. The four directions are not corners. The directions point to the edges of a square, not to corners. As in:

N
------------
| |
W | | E
| |
------------
S

As you can see (in my pitiful attempt at making a square), the directions do not point towards the corners of the square, but rather, to its four sides, which can hardly be compared to corners. Sides=/=corners.

[quote]And it is quite funny how certain people make us that way.  [/quote]
I'll attest to that.

[quote]Well, I can tell you that not according to this Christian. At least not fully. How on Earth can a Christian argue that man has free will when they say that the conflicting thoughts in our heads are what God tells us to do? That's not free will to me. But God does influence our thoughts and we choose to accept them or not. I guess that is what I consider one's conscience: what you choose to do with whatever thoughts float around in your head. [/quote]

Ah, I see. Sorry, I think I made a mistake in wording it that way... Lets try it another way.

If I persuade you to believe me, you still have the choice to believe or disblieve. What would you do, though, before believing, or disbelieving me? As in, what are your thought processes?


[quote]Oh, I know. And I agree. I was just trying to say that while God himself might not come down to help, others are doing it in his name.[/quote]

Well, they may help in His name, but they cannot help everyone. Even if those nice people, Christian and non-Christians, want to help, they cannot do so with limitted resources. If there isn't room to grow food, then they cannot feed everyone because they non-profits orgs won't have money to fund that many people.

Natural resource is key.

[quote]Not at all. He doesn't send them per se, but I think that's what they are there for. To help improve the world in some way. God created everyone. Including those that do not believe in him (not singling you out) and those that try to prove him wrong. Again its a matter of what you choose to do and what you choose to follow.[/quote]

He created us with a nature to sin. Many try to prove Him wrong simply because there isn't enough evidence to support His existence. It's a matter of belief, and beliefs are powerful. Free will dictates that we choose as we like and do as we like... but free will isn't meant to be bound to the confines of standards, is it? If free will is binded, then we cannot call it free will.

[quote]for ages, all the bad things in the world, in any religion, have been attributed to some evil, mystical being (not necesarily Satan) and all good things to the opposite half. We have to count human nature as well. Yes, there's the whole thing going around that we are born evil and what not, but there are a few that can fight it and are truly good people, not necesarily having to believe in God...[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]About the second one, God did not create humans sinful. He created humans pure and perfect but it all changed in the garden of Eden when Eve allowed herself to be tempted. You don't have to believe this, but its just what I've been taught.[/quote]

She cannot be tempted if it's not in her nature to be curious and easily tempted. Her faith was not strong, but that isn't right either, since God created her pure and perfect. However, she cannot be perfect in the first place if she can be swayed to sin.

[quote]One more thing. What I've been taught is that Adam took the fruit from Eve because he felt that he would be alone for ever if she was destroyed for having fallen to temptation. He did not trust God enough to know that he would have created another partner for him.[/quote]

And thus, this shows that women are no good and.... expendable.

Adam took the fruit because he feared loneliness?... This makes him imperfect because he has everything in Paradise so there isn't a need to fear. Yet, he was insecured, that is a flaw.

[quote] That was a long post.  [/quote]

Mine was longer ... I'm very tired and sleepy... have a good night!!!!

[xnastyninjagrlx]

This is hard because it was God who gave us free will, and yet the Bible tells us what we should believe in. Isn't this contradictory? The Almighty tells you to think as you will (free will), but the Bible says believe in Christ.... This is what stumps me the most.

Sorry I've been away for soo longg!!! I"m backk!!!! School started and so much to do..but anywayz..back on the topic..I know that can be really contradictory fae, but God DOES want us to believe in him. He gave us free will so we can decide for ourselves weather we believe in him or not, He desires everyone to know him and believe in Him, but unfortunetley not everyone is going to believe in Him before they die. He wants us to make the decision ourselves. The bible constantly say believe in God because we should see how great he is and all the things that he has done for us. In turn, we SHOULD believe in Him because first of all, he died for our sins. No other gods made a sacrafice of himself for the love of his people. His unconditional love should draw us towards him, making us believe that he is the one and only Savior and that with him all things are possible. People still do have free will NOT to believe him, and it is our job as Christians to show them that our God is good and that they should come to know Him.

[Spirited Away]

Sorry I've been away for soo longg!!! I"m backk!!!! School started and so much to do..but anywayz..back on the topic..

Wecome back! Yea, school is and will always demand most of our time.....

I know that can be really contradictory fae, but God DOES want us to believe in him. He gave us free will so we can decide for ourselves weather we believe in him or not, He desires everyone to know him and believe in Him, but unfortunetley not everyone is going to believe in Him before they die. He wants us to make the decision ourselves. The bible constantly say believe in God because we should see how great he is and all the things that he has done for us. In turn, we SHOULD believe in Him because first of all, he died for our sins. No other gods made a sacrafice of himself for the love of his people. His unconditional love should draw us towards him, making us believe that he is the one and only Savior and that with him all things are possible. People still do have free will NOT to believe him, and it is our job as Christians to show them that our God is good and that they should come to know Him.

But the parts where there are contradictions that make many people disbelieve and be agnostics, like me. Atheists and many Agnostics do not believe because they need something more substantial, and have less metaphors, than the Bible. God would give Christians a huge break from spreading the word if He could just perform one miracle that will affect the whole world positively. And I really do mean the whole world, not just a certain geographical area.

[CrimsonArchangel]

[quote=uninspiredfae,Sep 29 2004, 12:04 AM] Ah HAH! The woman's the guilty party here! She's evil/curious!!! So then, who created the woman?
[/quote]
Maybe we are wording wrong here.
Yes, woman might have been perfect and pure, but she was not powerful. Satan was much more powerful than she ever was, so he managed to tempt her. It wasn't *her* fault. It was the fact that Satan was much more powerful than a human being and was able to tempt her.
Women are not *evil* because of Eve's mistake, nor are we expendable and such...

[quote]if you're interested, I'll tell you what happened to the girl and the guy. [/quote]

Now I'm interested.

[quote]We're born with an evil nature, why? [/quote]

I am going to answer this with what I've been taught and what I think makes sense, taking into consideration what I believe in. Nowadays we are born with an evil nature because of the mistake Adam and Eve made thousands of years ago. Had they not been tempted, we would all (including people nowadays) be pure and perfect.

[quote] The Almighty tells you to think as you will (free will), but the Bible says believe in Christ.... This is what stumps me the most. [/quote]

Maybe if I put it this way it might help. We have free will. And because of that free will, you don't *have* to love God. Now, that free will allows you to choose to love God or to not love him. Lets say you chose to love him. Only then would it be a good thing to follow what the Bible says. If you (generalization) think that the Bible does not apply to you, then there should be no worry about what it says. If a person accepts God, then it would be in their heart to follow the Bible. So, yes, we all have free will to either accept or deny God, but once and if we accept him, then we follow what the Bible says and that is to love him.

[quote]"Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars (ydwmu) tremble."Job 9:6

"The earth and all its inhabitants are melting away; I set firm its pillars (ydwmu)." Psalm 75:3

"For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s and he had set the world upon them." I Samuel 2:8

I think they're all the book of Genesis. [/quote]

Just to clarify something, the names at the end are the books the verses are found in. Samuel and Psalms and what not are books just like Genesis. Just thought I'd clarify that.
Again, the pillar thing is a metaphor (but we established that already). The earth is supported by something. If not, who knows what would happen. We can put it this way. The earth's own gravity keeps it in place (one pillar), the gravity of the solar system makes it rotate in place and not crash all over (another pillar), and though we may not see them, there are forces in the universe that keep all the planets and stars in place (another pillar). That seems like a logical way to me...

[quote]Yes, and apparently, it's all because Eve gave Adam the apple. I think, the fault of Eve is why the Bible insists that women must bear the burden of consequence for this ancestor and be inferior. Which I agree as not fair. [/quote]

And I agree with you. There are man things in the Bible that are wrong and contradictory but there are some that are quite funny. For example, "A gossip betrays a confidence, so avoid a man that talks too much". (Proverbs 20:19). There are parts of the Bible that are useful to even those that do not fully believe in God. When you get the chance, pick up a Bible and look through the book of PRoverbs. You might find some very interesting stuff. But let me warn you, there will be some things that will sound wrong, racist and contradictory (they did to me), but those are the kinds of things that shouldn't be taken completely seriously.

[quote]I actually came across that answer from someone before, but I've formulated a thought against that, too. The four directions are not corners. The directions point to the edges of a square, not to corners.[/quote]

Well... lol... literally, yes. They don't point to corners, but you have to remember that we are talking figuratively here. Lets put it another way. Take N, S, E and W. There are other directions in between those, like NS, SSE, WSW, and what not. Put them all together including N, S, E and W, and you get a circle. So, figuratively, the four corners of the earth are just that. But believe me. The Bible does not say nor does it imply that the earth is square. If there is a text, I'll find it.

[quote]As in, what are your thought processes?[/quote]

Well, I can say that if you are referring to you as a physical being, then it can not be compared to God in the sense that while God is real (to me), he is not exactly physical...
Now, if you were not exactly physical, then the thought would be different. First, I would like a proof that you are there. Of course, if I truly believe in what you have said to persuade me to believe you, then I would have enough faith to know that whatever I ask for, it will be done if it is within your boundaries. I have a feeling that the whole "all-poweful God" might come into play here. Now I ask you a question. Lets say you are God. Some one asks you to prove yourself to the world. However, the world is full with such evil, that you (being the epitomy of goodness and purity) simply cannot come into contact with the world. And also, there are so many people that jsut plainly and adamantly refuse to believe in you. Would you force them to do so? Or would you let them choose? And what would you do to those that plainly refuse to believe in you?


[quote]Natural resource is key.[/quote]

Perhaps the same science that allowed men to destroy them, might help them create them...

[quote]However, she cannot be perfect in the first place if she can be swayed to sin. [/quote]

Again, it wasn't Eve's fault. She was perfect, but Satan was even more perfect (he was an angel, thus the fallen angel thing) and *much* more powerful. Lets say I am a gorgeous (as if, haha) perfect being, and I see this also beautiful, perfect being. Say I want that other person to do something for me. She comes over (no lesbian implications, please, ) and sees how damn gorgeous I am. I want her to do something, but she hesitates. She is mesmerized by my beauty and doesn't know what to do. What she doesn't know is that I am at least 100 times stronger than her, so to get her to do what I want, despite her perfection and beauty, I break her. Just for the sole fact that I am stronger and I can break her if I so choose to.
Dunno if that made sense, but that is pretty much how I see the whole Eve thing. She didn't get tempted because she was a weak, expendable creature. She got tempted because the one who tempted her was much more perfect and stronger.

[quote]This makes him imperfect because he has everything in Paradise so there isn't a need to fear. Yet, he was insecured, that is a flaw. [/quote]

I guess what I wrote above can apply to this as well...


BLAH! Another long post. Ah well. The beauties of college. Fae, this is out of *utter* curiosity. What are you studying?

[Spirited Away]

[quote=CrimsonArchangel,Sep 30 2004, 3:15 PM] Maybe we are wording wrong here.
Yes, woman might have been perfect and pure, but she was not powerful. Satan was much more powerful than she ever was, so he managed to tempt her. It wasn't *her* fault. It was the fact that Satan was much more powerful than a human being and was able to tempt her.
Women are not *evil* because of Eve's mistake, nor are we expendable and such... [/quote]
I got the idea that women are expendable from the sentence that said God would've just made another woman/companion for Adam... I kind of thought, wow, then it's no big deal that one woman just disappear, God can supply Adam with another one.

Eve wasn't powerful, but she was not perfect because she was tempted. Imperfection=flaw.

[quote]
Now I'm interested.  [/quote]

Happy ending! I heard this story from an ex-privateer. The guy lied for the girl so he brought their attention all to him now. He tried to fight off his stupid/druken attacker, but was failing miserable considering that he was quite outnumbered. The girl came out of hiding and tried to help but couldn't do much... then guess what??? His buddies, then pirates as well, came to help and save them both! They two got married and is now living in Houston Tx with 3 children. True story and very romantic. (<<< He is my Dad's friend)

[quote]I am going to answer this with what I've been taught and what I think makes sense, taking into consideration what I believe in. Nowadays we are born with an evil nature because of the mistake Adam and Eve made thousands of years ago. Had they not been tempted, we would all (including people nowadays) be pure and perfect.[/quote]

Because they were the original ones who fell to evil, we have to bear the consequences? So the sins/mistakes of the father/mother must fall on their children. I would never wish that on my children, or anyone else's either.

Falling to evil makes both Adam and Eve imperfect. Perfect people would not have been so insecure while under the protection of the most power Being.

[quote]Maybe if I put it this way it might help. We have free will. And because of that free will, you don't *have* to love God. Now, that free will allows you to choose to love God or to not love him. Lets say you chose to love him. Only then would it be a good thing to follow what the Bible says. If you (generalization) think that the Bible does not apply to you, then there should be no worry about what it says. If a person accepts God, then it would be in their heart to follow the Bible. So, yes, we all have free will to either accept or deny God, but once and if we accept him, then we follow what the Bible says and that is to love him.[/quote]

But there is the horrible consequence of not believing in Christ and the Bible. Not only does one need to believe in God (the Creator), which I already do, but there must be belief in Christ and the Bible, which I cannot accept without proof.

One problem though, free will isn't meant to be limited or bounded. Free will also covers what is in the gray areas, not just black and white or else that would make it limited will.

[quote]Just to clarify something, the names at the end are the books the verses are found in. Samuel and Psalms and what not are books just like Genesis.    Just thought I'd clarify that.[/quote]
Ah, thanks.

[quote]Again, the pillar thing is a metaphor (but we established that already). The earth is supported by something. If not, who knows what would happen. We can put it this way. The earth's own gravity keeps it in place (one pillar), the gravity of the solar system makes it rotate in place and not crash all over (another pillar), and though we may not see them, there are forces in the universe that keep all the planets and stars in place (another pillar). That seems like a logical way to me...[/quote]

If gravity is the pillar... it cannot shake... however one of the quote said pillars shake... As for the rest, I cannot disagree with you because I believe the Creator meant for the universe to be set up this way. Maybe an Atheist will have something else to say on the matter.

[quote]And I agree with you. There are man things in the Bible that are wrong and contradictory but there are some that are quite funny. For example, "A gossip betrays a confidence, so avoid a man that talks too much". (Proverbs 20:19). There are parts of the Bible that are useful to even those that do not fully believe in God. When you get the chance, pick up a Bible and look through the book of PRoverbs. You might find some very interesting stuff. But let me warn you, there will be some things that will sound wrong, racist and contradictory (they did to me), but those are the kinds of things that shouldn't be taken completely seriously.[/quote]
My friend tells me these quotes all the time, and in exchange, I just tell her non-religious proverbs... Yes... my friend and I do that for fun.... We do discuss religion up to the point where we get heated with each other, which is rare because she avoids conflicts... unlike dumb me.

If there are something that shouldn't be taken seriously, then how come the rest shouldn't be taken seriously? This is the Bible after all. I think, time is changing and the Bible needs and update.......

OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, pick up the "WIRED" October issue. It has this interesting article titled "The Plot to Kill Evolution". <<< randomness, but I think you'd be interested.


[quote]Well...  lol... literally, yes. They don't point to corners, but you have to remember that we are talking figuratively here. Lets put it another way. Take N, S, E and W. There are other directions in between those, like NS, SSE, WSW, and what not. Put them all together including N, S, E and W, and you get a circle. So, figuratively, the four corners of the earth are just that. But believe me. The Bible does not say nor does it imply that the earth is square. If there is a text, I'll find it.[/quote]

If it is all figurative/metaphoricall/vague, then why is the Bible taken seriously? If it's not all true, then why did the Church took it seriously and claimed that Galileo commited heresy and incarcerated him?

And logically, there are more than four directions, as you have pointed out, but then why does the Bible mention only four "corners" and not the other many "corners" that would make it into a spherical shape?

[quote]Well, I can say that if you are referring to you as a physical being, then it can not be compared to God in the sense that while God is real (to me), he is not exactly physical...
Now, if you were not exactly physical, then the thought would be different. First, I would like a proof that you are there. Of course, if I truly believe in what you have said to persuade me to believe you, then I would have enough faith to know that whatever I ask for, it will be done if it is within your boundaries. I have a feeling that the whole "all-poweful God" might come into play here. Now I ask you a question. Lets say you are God. Some one asks you to prove yourself to the world. However, the world is full with such evil, that you (being the epitomy of goodness and purity) simply cannot come into contact with the world. And also, there are so many people that jsut plainly and adamantly refuse to believe in you. Would you force them to do so? Or would you let them choose? And what would you do to those that plainly refuse to believe in you? [/quote]

In the case that I am God and all powerful, omnipotent, what-not, would evil stop me from being with the ones I created and love? People say that true love can overcome almost any obstacle, and being God, I would not only have the power, but the also will--motivated by love-- to exert my love to my creation through whatever means possible.

I would let my creation choose to believe or disbelieve only after I show them my power so they have proof that I exist.

Back to being me... if God cannot be on earth, then why do Christians say that God is everywhere?

[quote]Perhaps the same science that allowed men to destroy them, might help them create them... [/quote]

Oh, but that means we would depend on our own might/intelligence/will to create our resources. The problem is, aren't we supposed to depend on God that he created the earth so that natural resources are everlasting? So, if we happen to run out of a natural resource, doesn't this mean that the earth/world was created imperfect since it has limits? I mean, we can't say that God created us and the world perfectly when we are flawed and so is the earth.... argh... this totally makes me re-think my belief in my Creator.

[quote]Again, it wasn't Eve's fault. She was perfect, but Satan was even more perfect (he was an angel, thus the fallen angel thing) and *much* more powerful. Lets say I am a gorgeous (as if, haha) perfect being, and I see this also beautiful, perfect being. Say I want that other person to do something for me. She comes over (no lesbian implications, please,  ) and sees how damn gorgeous I am. I want her to do something, but she hesitates. She is mesmerized by my beauty and doesn't know what to do. What she doesn't know is that I am at least 100 times stronger than her, so to get her to do what I want, despite her perfection and beauty, I break her. Just for the sole fact that I am stronger and I can break her if I so choose to.
Dunno if that made sense, but that is pretty much how I see the whole Eve thing. She didn't get tempted because she was a weak, expendable creature. She got tempted because the one who tempted her was much more perfect and stronger.[/quote]

Yes, you made sense.

Here is the deal. She's with Adam and under God's protection, she should have been satisfied and secure with that knowledge. Because she is insecure (a flaw/imperfection) that she falls to the seduction of one who is more powerful than her. If she were perfect, she would have trusted that God will give her the best, not what the creature offered her.

[quote]I guess what I wrote above can apply to this as well...[/quote]

Ditto.

[quote]BLAH!  Another long post.  Ah well. The beauties of college. Fae, this is out of *utter* curiosity. What are you studying?    [/quote]

I'm planning to be a business woman... my long term goal is to be an independent contractor--work for myself and create my own work hours so I have time to spend with my family (hubby/kids/parents). I'm double duty-ing Finance and Operations of Management. I would like a MBA, but I'm not sure if my finances can take me that far.

[CrimsonArchangel]

[quote=uninspiredfae,Sep 30 2004, 5:49 PM] Eve wasn't powerful, but she was not perfect because she was tempted. Imperfection=flaw.
. [/quote]
Again, it wasn't her fault. The Bible says (sorry... I guess this sort of ties to the topic...) that God created humans just below the status of Angels. Satan was an Angel, so he was more powerful than Eve. I guess one can say that Eve was perfect physically, but not quite mentally. I'm not saying that she was retarded or something. I'm trying to say that she was more likely to fall to a mental attack than to something physical....
Hope that made sense.

[quote]Happy ending![/quote]

That *is* romantic! And this is coming from one of the most romantically-inept persons you'll ever know off, haha.

[quote]Because they were the original ones who fell to evil, we have to bear the consequences? So the sins/mistakes of the father/mother must fall on their children.[/quote]

If you put aside the spiritual side, its sort of the same physically. If a woman smokes and drinks and does drugs while pregnant, or even before, the baby *will* suffer the consequences, not matter what. Even if the father drinks or does drugs or has some sort of illness that can be genetically transfered, the baby will suffer. It is really unfair... both on the physical level and on the spiritual level.

[quote]belief in Christ and the Bible,[/quote]

If this confuses you more, let me know. I'll try to explain better. Christ and the Creator are one and the same. Some one made a good analogy (its floating around in some forum in here...) that I really liked. Think of the Trinity as water. Water can exist in three states, but no matter what, it is still water, the same element. Think of the Creator and Christ as the same thing (just add in the Holy Spirit). Christ took a physical form when he came down to earth (think of water freezing) but never ceased to be water. Now put it on a spiritual level. God, Jesus (Christ) and the Holy Spirit are the same divine being (water). Jesus took a physical form when he came down to earth (water froze), but nevertheless remained divine (ice is still water, just in a different form).

[quote]One problem though, free will isn't meant to be limited or bounded.[/quote]

Hmm... goo thought. What I'm about to write is going to sound rather wrong... but there is no other way I think of putting it... if this disappoints you... then I don't blame you... sorry.
Free will is not bounded. That is, until and if you accept God. You still have free will, but within what is spiritually moral. So... yes, free will becomes slightly bounded when you accept God, *but*, I can tell you from experience that what comes with accepting God and living a life with him rather makes up for those boundaries. Another thing. The boundaries are things that... I can say are rather... easy to take, but there are some that are not... like the whole thing with not going to the movie theaters. COME ON PEOPLE! It is the same thing if you rent the damn movie... except you can fast forward the bad parts. That's all. There are things that I do not agree with in religion, but I cannot change what has been around for long before I was born.


[quote]
If gravity is the pillar... it cannot shake... however one of the quote said pillars shake...[/quote]

If the Creator was powerful enough to create gravity, he can make it shake. Again, it is not literal...

[quote]
which is rare because she avoids conflicts... unlike dumb me. [/quote]

You? Dumb? You're about one of the smartest people I know! And that is a big compliment, . Conflicts are rather fun, if you ask me,

[quote]I think, time is changing and the Bible needs and update....... [/quote]

AGREE, AGREE, AGREE! But again, we cannot change something that has been around for longer than we have...

[quote]OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, pick up the "WIRED" October issue. It has this interesting article titled "The Plot to Kill Evolution". <<< randomness, but I think you'd be interested.[/quote]

Rather dumb question coming up, so bare with me, haha. Wired is a magazine? If so... where can I find it? I haven't seen it around here... but then again, I'm in the middle of nowhere... Gah... I need my New York City back...

[quote]If it is all figurative/metaphoricall/vague, then why is the Bible taken seriously? If it's not all true, then why did the Church took it seriously and claimed that Galileo commited heresy and incarcerated him?[/quote]

They took it seriously because they were dumb. Literally. They did not know what was a metaphor and what was serious. And they took it seriously because they were not as educated as you or me (that was rather bad English, but I don't care, lol) in matters like geography and such. They heard something that they did not know about and because they did not know better, they saw it as heresy.

[quote]why does the Bible mention only four "corners"[/quote]

It only mentions four corners because those are the "main" ones. You really don't mention SSW, or NW as much as N, S, E or W.

[quote]
In the case that I am God and all powerful, omnipotent, what-not, would evil stop me from being with the ones I created and love?[/quote]

You know that I have wondered that many times as well? And I am sorry to say that with my feeble mind I cannot explain that which not even I understand... sorry...

[quote]I would let my creation choose to believe or disbelieve only after I show them my power so they have proof that I exist.[/quote]

There is plenty of proof He exists. Yes, the innocents are still suffering... that is something I again cannot explain, but there is proof out there.

[quote]Back to being me... if God cannot be on earth, then why do Christians say that God is everywhere? [/quote]

Again, I go back to the whole water analogy. God is not physically on earth, but like water vapor, he is every where in essence.

[quote]I mean, we can't say that God created us and the world perfectly when we are flawed and so is the earth.... argh... this totally makes me re-think my belief in my Creator. [/quote]

NO! No! That is the last thing I want... sorry if I made you believe that way! Forget that whole paragraph.
Ok. God created us and the earth perfect, but sin made it and us flawed.


[quote] If she were perfect, she would have trusted that God will give her the best, not what the creature offered her.[/quote]

I guess what I wrote first can tie into this. It really was the best way I could think of explaining it...

[quote]I'm planning to be a business woman... my long term goal is to be an independent contractor--work for myself and create my own work hours so I have time to spend with my family (hubby/kids/parents). I'm double duty-ing Finance and Operations of Management. I would like a MBA, but I'm not sure if my finances can take me that far.[/quote]

Ah. Ok. Well, I wish you the best of luck and may whatever you want come true.

[IIO__oII]

Ah HAH! The woman's the guilty party here! She's evil/curious!!! So then, who created the woman?

but that doesnt mean God is evil. the creator isnt always what the creation is.

[Spirited Away]

but that doesnt mean God is evil. the creator isnt always what the creation is.

No, no, no. You're quoting me out of context.


Anyway, I'll have to reply fully later Angel... I got injured while playing volleyball... I'm getting clumsier by the day ...

[CrimsonArchangel]

Anyway, I'll have to reply fully later Angel... I got injured while playing volleyball... I'm getting clumsier by the day ...

Sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better soon!

[Spirited Away]

[quote=CrimsonArchangel,Sep 30 2004, 7:45 PM] Again, it wasn't her fault. The Bible says (sorry... I guess this sort of ties to the topic...) that God created humans just below the status of Angels. Satan was an Angel, so he was more powerful than Eve. I guess one can say that Eve was perfect physically, but not quite mentally. I'm not saying that she was retarded or something. I'm trying to say that she was more likely to fall to a mental attack than to something physical....
Hope that made sense.
[/quote]
But by saying that she isn't perfect mentally just proves that she is imperfect, even intangibly. I mean, greed, sloth, pride... etc are all sins originating from the mind, or rather our mental will. Being charmed by the Devil because of a weak mind just means that Eve was less perfect than the Devil, less perfect than Adam, and just all around imperfect even before rebelling.

[quote]That *is* romantic!  And this is coming from one of the most romantically-inept persons you'll ever know off, haha.[/quote]
Yep. The funny think is, you don't really expect this kind of story to happen in real life... but I'm happy to know that happy endings do exist for some people.

[quote]If you put aside the spiritual side, its sort of the same physically. If a woman smokes and drinks and does drugs while pregnant, or even before, the baby *will* suffer the consequences, not matter what. Even if the father drinks or does drugs or has some sort of illness that can be genetically transfered, the baby will suffer. It is really unfair... both on the physical level and on the spiritual level.[/quote]

We can hardly brush the spiritual sense aside, after all, faith is not physical, it is rather a spiritual thing.

But to move on, even if that child must bear the consequences of its parents, not all children will suffer the same because not all people smoke/drink... etc. Lets say Christians are totally agaist smoking and excessive drinking, I'm not Christian, but I still don't approve of doing either one, let alone doing the act while pregnant. To tie this in, many people do not believe in God, but that doesn't mean that they live in decadence. Also, there are many children who suffered from their parents irresponsiblity and took it to heart and be better people than their parents.

Not every child will be like his/her parents.

[quote]If this confuses you more, let me know. I'll try to explain better. Christ and the Creator are one and the same. Some one made a good analogy (its floating around in some forum in here...) that I really liked. Think of the Trinity as water. Water can exist in three states, but no matter what, it is still water, the same element. Think of the Creator and Christ as the same thing (just add in the Holy Spirit). Christ took a physical form when he came down to earth (think of water freezing) but never ceased to be water. Now put it on a spiritual level. God, Jesus (Christ) and the Holy Spirit are the same divine being (water). Jesus took a physical form when he came down to earth (water froze), but nevertheless remained divine (ice is still water, just in a different form).[/quote]

Yes, this is one way of putting it. However, Jews don't believe Christ to be the Creator and they're supposed to be God's chosen people.

[quote]Hmm... goo thought. What I'm about to write is going to sound rather wrong... but there is no other way I think of putting it... if this disappoints you... then I don't blame you... sorry.[/quote]
Don't worry about disappointment, I'm just happy we get to know each other.

[quote]Free will is not bounded. That is, until and if you accept God. You still have free will, but within what is spiritually moral. So... yes, free will becomes slightly bounded when you accept God, *but*, I can tell you from experience that what comes with accepting God and living a life with him rather makes up for those boundaries. Another thing. The boundaries are things that... I can say are rather... easy to take, but there are some that are not... like the whole thing with not going to the movie theaters. COME ON PEOPLE! It is the same thing if you rent the damn movie... except you can fast forward the bad parts. That's all. There are things that I do not agree with in religion, but I cannot change what has been around for long before I was born.[/quote]

This confuses me. I guess I can put this far back of my mind as something unexplainable until I die and find out . What I conclude from your explaination is that God gives free will to those who do not believe in Him, and I'll tell you why I think this by the following example.

If I am first able to free to believe as I please. However, after I choose to believe in God, I will no longer be free to think because I must follow the rules/morals/standards set up by the Bible.

[quote]If the Creator was powerful enough to create gravity, he can make it shake. Again, it is not literal...[/quote]

If it's not literal, than what does "shake pillars" or something mean?

[quote]You? Dumb?  You're about one of the smartest people I know! And that is a big compliment,  . Conflicts are rather fun, if you ask me,  [/quote]

Thank you, I do think the same of you.

[quote]AGREE, AGREE, AGREE! But again, we cannot change something that has been around for longer than we have...[/quote]

I hope this isn't the case. There are many things/traditions/culture that have existed for a long time, but they have been changed because time changes. Age does not always tantamount to wisdom.

[quote]Rather dumb question coming up, so bare with me, haha. Wired is a magazine? If so... where can I find it? I haven't seen it around here... but then again, I'm in the middle of nowhere... Gah... I need my New York City back... [/quote]

Yea, yea!! WIRED is a sort of technology update magazine. It usually talks about gadgets and such but many articles, like the one I mentioned, are thought provoking.

[quote]They took it seriously because they were dumb. Literally. They did not know what was a metaphor and what was serious. And they took it seriously because they were not as educated as you or me (that was rather bad English, but I don't care, lol) in matters like geography and such. They heard something that they did not know about and because they did not know better, they saw it as heresy.[/quote]

I wouldn't say they were dumb. The high ranking officials in the Church are supposed to be very well learned in many subjects. They knew what metaphors are, but supposed that the Bible was only stating literal truths. After all, if you and I lived in that era, we would not know what the earth was shaped like either.

They did not know better because there wasn't anything more knowledge to prove otherwise. Many people fear change, and one can hardly blame them for expecting the Bible to be so metaphorical.

What one CAN blame them for is being close minded and that they do not practice what they preach.


[quote]It only mentions four corners because those are the "main" ones. You really don't mention SSW, or NW as much as N, S, E or W.[/quote]

But that just means that the Bible is very vague about our creation, and shouldn't be taken so seriously. It could have been more detailed by simply saying that the world is rounded (more precise to say spherical) or anything else than what the "four corners" suggest.

[quote]Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

2. Job 38:44 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? [/quote]

Spheres do not have ends that one can hold, but flat objects and angular shapes/objects do. In the second one, it should say "measuring line around it" insted of "across". << that wasn't my thought, but something I found online and agreed quite fully.

Did you know that the earth IS ROUND according to Islam?

I know that there are different sections (or places?) in the Bible where it was suggested that the earth is 'circular', but why isn't this noted in Genesis instead of being added in later books? (notice that I do not say sphere, because I cannot find one source where the Bible plainly states that the earth is spherical). Maybe I'm just not researching hard enough...

[quote]You know that I have wondered that many times as well? And I am sorry to say that with my feeble mind I cannot explain that which not even I understand... sorry...[/quote]

This is going to be another thing that must be pushed back somewhere in my head, else I will hurt myself (mentally) in trying to find the answer.

[quote]There is plenty of proof He exists. Yes, the innocents are still suffering... that is something I again cannot explain, but there is proof out there. [/quote]

I only need to see one kind of proof though. The kind that will be life changing to ALL of "God's children" and not just positive for those who are aready "blessed".

[quote]Again, I go back to the whole water analogy. God is not physically on earth, but like water vapor, he is every where in essence.[/quote]

Then why was it mentioned that He cannot be on earth, because that was why I wrote that comment.


[quote]NO! No! That is the last thing I want...  sorry if I made you believe that way! Forget that whole paragraph.
Ok. God created us and the earth perfect, but sin made it and us flawed.[/quote]

Sin makes us flaw, but who allowed to be born with a sinful nature?


[quote]I guess what I wrote first can tie into this. It really was the best way I could think of explaining it...[/quote]

Ditto once again.


[quote]Ah. Ok. Well, I wish you the best of luck and may whatever you want come true.  [/quote]
Thanks!

[CrimsonArchangel]

[quote=uninspiredfae,Oct 2 2004, 10:25 PM] But by saying that she isn't perfect mentally just proves that she is imperfect, even intangibly. I mean, greed, sloth, pride... etc are all sins originating from the mind, or rather our mental will. Being charmed by the Devil because of a weak mind just means that Eve was less perfect than the Devil, less perfect than Adam, and just all around imperfect even before rebelling.


[/quote]
I guess then it all comes down to this. You're right. Religion will tell you then that God is the only perfect being around, but I can tell you that Adam and Eve were *much* more perfect than we are now, even if they had their own flaws.

[quote]but I'm happy to know that happy endings do exist for some people.[/quote]
And I as well. That's good for them.

[quote]Not every child will be like his/her parents.[/quote]
And I agree. But that's the main idea. In some ways sadly and in some ways gladly, there are always exceptions to some rules in life.

[quote]However, Jews don't believe Christ to be the Creator and they're supposed to be God's chosen people.[/quote]
Supposed is the key word here. I am not anti-semitic in any way, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. No where in the bible does it state as much. Sure, they were in the past, during bible times, but times have changed and so have ideologies and people's minds.

[quote]I'm just happy we get to know each other. [/quote]
And I as well!.

[quote]If I am first able to free to believe as I please. However, after I choose to believe in God, I will no longer be free to think because I must follow the rules/morals/standards set up by the Bible.[/quote]
Yes and no... yes, because there are "rules" to follow, and no, because you choose to follow those rules. You chose to follow. However, I will say that there are rules that are just plain stupid and worth not following, so you still have free will. Again, I say this from experience, living a life with God compensates having to follow certain rules.


[quote]If it's not literal, than what does "shake pillars" or something mean? [/quote]
If God created gravity (which is what supports the earth in place), then he can shake it to show his power. That doesn't mean that he'll do it any time soon, it just means that he can.

[quote]Thank you, I do think the same of you. [/quote]
Thanks! Yay for us smart people!

[quote]I hope this isn't the case. There are many things/traditions/culture that have existed for a long time, but they have been changed because time changes. Age does not always tantamount to wisdom.[/quote]
Again, I agree, but again I say, if the Bible needs to be changed, then it is not in my or anyone's hands to do so...

[quote]Yea, yea!! WIRED is a sort of technology update magazine. It usually talks about gadgets and such but many articles, like the one I mentioned, are thought provoking. [/quote]
Cool! I'll see if I can find it next time I go to town, which is like half an hour away in a car that I do not possess, so that'll be in a while, .

[quote]I wouldn't say they were dumb. The high ranking officials in the Church are supposed to be very well learned in many subjects. They knew what metaphors are, but supposed that the Bible was only stating literal truths. After all, if you and I lived in that era, we would not know what the earth was shaped like either.[/quote]
Again, supposed is the key word. They might have been well learned in many subjects but perhaps not in geography. They were very closed minded and like you said, they feared change. Just because they took the bible's metaphores a bit too seriously does not mean they had the right to condemn Galileo and it does not mean that they were right.

[quote]
What one CAN blame them for is being close minded and that they do not practice what they preach. [/quote]
Whoops... should have read farther down, . I agree with you on this one too.

[quote]It could have been more detailed by simply saying that the world is rounded (more precise to say spherical) or anything else than what the "four corners" suggest. [/quote]
Isaiah 40
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
This one implies roundness.

2 Peter 3
5 and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
This one is a bit tricky but I'll see if I can explain it. If you put a rough, sharp rock under a stream of constant water, give it time and it will be smooth and somewhat rounded. What I'm trying to say is that if the earth was formed by water under God's command (according to the verse) then it had to have some spherical characteristics.

Gah... I would look for more but there is a test I must study for. Lovely school...

[quote]I will hurt myself (mentally) in trying to find the answer.[/quote]
You and me both.

[quote]Then why was it mentioned that He cannot be on earth[/quote]
Physically. He cannot be on Earth physically.

[quote]Sin makes us flaw, but who allowed to be born with a sinful nature?[/quote]
Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it

Don't know if that explains it... it was not by our own choice...

[quote]Thanks![/quote]
You are *very* welcome!

[Spirited Away]

I guess then it all comes down to this. You're right. Religion will tell you then that God is the only perfect being around, but I can tell you that Adam and Eve were *much* more perfect than we are now, even if they had their own flaws.

Sheesh, I had written a fairly long response but when away for a while... then cB decided to make me the fool when I hit that add reply button... meaning it lead me to the "sign in" page and lost all the stuff I wrote.... weirdddddddddddd.

Anyway, here's another try:

In short, I mean to say that they wouldn't be flawed if God had meant for them to be perfect in every way: mind, body, and spirit. (not my original thought though..... arghhhhh)

And I agree. But that's the main idea. In some ways sadly and in some ways gladly, there are always exceptions to some rules in life.

Would this exception include good people who do not believe in God not going to Hell?

Supposed is the key word here. I am not anti-semitic in any way, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. No where in the bible does it state as much. Sure, they were in the past, during bible times, but times have changed and so have ideologies and people's minds.

Ah, I see. The title is self-proclaimed.

Yes and no... yes, because there are "rules" to follow, and no, because you choose to follow those rules. You chose to follow. However, I will say that there are rules that are just plain stupid and worth not following, so you still have free will. Again, I say this from experience, living a life with God compensates having to follow certain rules.

I see.

Again, I agree, but again I say, if the Bible needs to be changed, then it is not in my or anyone's hands to do so...

Who added to it then?

Again, supposed is the key word. They might have been well learned in many subjects but perhaps not in geography. They were very closed minded and like you said, they feared change. Just because they took the bible's metaphores a bit too seriously does not mean they had the right to condemn Galileo and it does not mean that they were right.

They were not well-learned in geology because there wasn't much to learn from. Why discover something else when doing so would mean the Bible would be incorrect if interpretated literally. Who would know that the Bible was written so metaphorically? Again, if you or I were to live in that era or before that era, we would believe that the Bible (or the creation part) is quite literal because we don't know what else to believe since there isn't tested knowledge of otherwise.

If God created gravity (which is what supports the earth in place), then he can shake it to show his power. That doesn't mean that he'll do it any time soon, it just means that he can.

Isaiah 40
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
This one implies roundness.

2 Peter 3
5 and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
This one is a bit tricky but I'll see if I can explain it. If you put a rough, sharp rock under a stream of constant water, give it time and it will be smooth and somewhat rounded. What I'm trying to say is that if the earth was formed by water under God's command (according to the verse) then it had to have some spherical characteristics.

The first one implies roundess, but like I said, to be more precise... the earth is spherical. A circle is flat (what many people have thought was true), a sphere denotes roundness in three dimensions.


"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion. (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"

The first two verses are taken from the Bible and both are vague and can be misleading... I would have to say that I favor the verse from the Quran more in its depiction of the creation of the universe because it's pretty straight forward.

Physically. He cannot be on Earth physically.

Steam is quite tangible and can be felt, therefore, I think it's a physical state. In fact, gas is still something that takes up space and can't really be compared to a spirit....

Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it
Don't know if that explains it... it was not by our own choice...

I don't get it ...