Affirmative Action, i had to Options

[sadolakced acid]

if i were to deny you a job because of your race, even though you were better qualified, that would be racism, no?

[bigpoppaproppy]

No not if i do not beleive it is discriminatory. and ya'll keep forgeting the enitre program of Affirmative Action cannot be racist seeing as it does not only pertain to race

so bc its not COMPLETELY based on race its not racist

so if I said I hate you partly bc your black and partly for something else, then im not racist, bc its not completely based on race right

[onenonly101]

since you are using the word based. Afirmative Action is not based on race. You could say race being a factor is racist or sex being a facotr is sexiest or being disabled and so on.

[ComradeRed]

Then it's also sexist, etc. Your argument is likre saying Nazism was not anti-semitic cause it didnt deal only with jews

[Sumiaki]

Humans naturally like to classify things. Whether it be sex or race. SAT's for example ask for ethnicity. I don't know exactly why, but they do. I mean when you walk into a store and see all of one kind of person working there, do you get mad that there's no diversity? If you do, then why do you think that without any prior knowledge? The amount of males/females or the amount of caucasians/asians/etc. who apply and the qualifications. The store could have all caucasians working there, but what if only caucasians applied or one asian applied but didnt have qualifications. The job sometimes calls for a certain kind of person with certain kind of traits. I mean would you like a male working in a all female store? Or a very old man working on construction? Sometimes what we see can cloud our judgement.

[ComradeRed]

Thanks to protests and some civil disobedience in refusing to answer the ethnicity question by large groups of students (originating in my home town by the way), the ETS has removed the Ethnicity question from the SAT II Tests. Though ethnicity remains on the SAT I for statistical purposes.

[bigpoppaproppy]

Then it's also sexist, etc. Your argument is likre saying Nazism was not anti-semitic cause it didnt deal only with jews

bump

[onenonly101]

Then it's also sexist, etc. Your argument is likre saying Nazism was not anti-semitic cause it didnt deal only with jews

Ok you are right. What i am saying is that everyone is like get rid of Affirmative Action because it is racist,but they don't realize it affects others also. That it doesn't just help people overcome racial circumstances, it helps people overcome seixst, and handicap circumstances.

[ComradeRed]

1) It doesn't help people overcome racist circumstances, it is racist in and of itself. I have done a lot of research into college admissions processes -- and the ONLY evidence of racism is affirmative action, demonstrated by the fact that, on average, a black student matriculating at a top-tier school has an SAT score of 300 to 400 points lower than white counterparts being accepted, in addition to lower grades and overall lower standards. I don't know about you, but adding 400 points to my SAT score would put me at a 1990 -- enough to get me anywhere. But unfortunately, I'm not black or Hispanic. In my Ivy League Insider Guide that I got here, it admits that race is a VERY IMPORTANT factor in the admissions process -- acceptance rates for black students at Dartmouth is 50% and for Hispanics it is about 35%, whereas it is only 15% for whites and Asians. Add to that the fact that the average black student applying is less qualified than the average white student, and it is a clear implication that the admissions process is heavily skewed in favor of black students (THREE times a greater percentage admitted) -- due to affirmative action. The ONLY racist admissions councils are in places like Bob Jones University (www.bju.edu) that no black person would ever want to go to anyway, considering that they teach you to hate black people.

2) Women now make up 60% of all new college graduates. There are no longer any reputable all-male schools, but reputable all-female schools like Wellesley continue to thrive, in large part due to government support that would never exist at an all-male school. If there's any sexism in the process, it's against males.

3) When you are handicapped, it lowers your merit. As harsh as this may sound, if you're handicapped it does, in fact, harm your merit and thus giving the handicapped affirmative action is directly destroying the concept of meritocracy. If someone is handicapped, for example, by being mentally retarded, he should not be going to an Ivy League school -- affirmaive action or not. Similarly, if someone is blind, he should probably not be a firefighter. Et cetera. It might not be fair, but people are fundamentally different. The world isn't fair. It is ludicrous to expect handicapped people, on average, to achieve the same results that fit people would. I know it's not their fault, but people with low IQs -- it's not their fault either. No one is suggesting we give low-IQ affirmative action. "Handicap" affirmative action would involve transforming us into a communist society with an overbearing government that allows no room for the individual to thrive.

[bigpoppaproppy]

go red

[Sumiaki]

1) It doesn't help people overcome racist circumstances, it is racist in and of itself. I have done a lot of research into college admissions processes -- and the ONLY evidence of racism is affirmative action, demonstrated by the fact that, on average, a black student matriculating at a top-tier school has an SAT score of 300 to 400 points lower than white counterparts being accepted, in addition to lower grades and overall lower standards. I don't know about you, but adding 400 points to my SAT score would put me at a 1990 -- enough to get me anywhere. But unfortunately, I'm not black or Hispanic. In my Ivy League Insider Guide that I got here, it admits that race is a VERY IMPORTANT factor in the admissions process -- acceptance rates for black students at Dartmouth is 50% and for Hispanics it is about 35%, whereas it is only 15% for whites and Asians. Add to that the fact that the average black student applying is less qualified than the average white student, and it is a clear implication that the admissions process is heavily skewed in favor of black students (THREE times a greater percentage admitted) -- due to affirmative action. The ONLY racist admissions councils are in places like Bob Jones University (www.bju.edu) that no black person would ever want to go to anyway, considering that they teach you to hate black people.

2) Women now make up 60% of all new college graduates. There are no longer any reputable all-male schools, but reputable all-female schools like Wellesley continue to thrive, in large part due to government support that would never exist at an all-male school. If there's any sexism in the process, it's against males.

3) When you are handicapped, it lowers your merit. As harsh as this may sound, if you're handicapped it does, in fact, harm your merit and thus giving the handicapped affirmative action is directly destroying the concept of meritocracy. If someone is handicapped, for example, by being mentally retarded, he should not be going to an Ivy League school -- affirmaive action or not. Similarly, if someone is blind, he should probably not be a firefighter. Et cetera. It might not be fair, but people are fundamentally different. The world isn't fair. It is ludicrous to expect handicapped people, on average, to achieve the same results that fit people would. I know it's not their fault, but people with low IQs -- it's not their fault either. No one is suggesting we give low-IQ affirmative action. "Handicap" affirmative action would involve transforming us into a communist society with an overbearing government that allows no room for the individual to thrive.

Yea what he said, especially the last paragraph.

[EmeraldKnight]

Minda.. you're too good, you shouldnt be allowed in some of these debates..

[ComradeRed]

Haha, thanks :).

[sadolakced acid]

our society has become so fearful of being accused of sexism agains females and racism agains blacks and mexicans, that we can gone the other way.

we are sexist agains males and racist agains whites, most evident in the SAT and affirmative action

"...32 real people were mentioned. The list included 22 women, 8 african americans, 5 hispanics, 3 asian americans. The 10 mails included 7 minorities and 2 from over seas. the lone american white male was tomas jefferson, referenced in a question about his decision not to condemn lotteries. "
- the new SAT guide.

it is evident. you say that affirmative action is ok because uses physical attributes, things that cannot be changed, that for years caused people to be discriminated agaist, you use these attributes to give them a 'leg up' and put them in jobs and colleges where they are not qualified for but do after AA adds in race, sex, disabilities, and other stuff?

why the double standard? might it be because it 'helps' you? or becuase you feel sorry for the people it 'helps'?

[onenonly101]

^I'm tired of hearing that I am not qualified for something. You want to complain how much AA is racist and you are being racist yoruself, so what does it matter.

It does help me overcome racial circumstances. You cannot say it doesn't because you are not black you have not faced what black people have faced. I actually hate when people say stuff like what i said but it is so true. Growing up black you have to face so many obstacles because people hate yo ufor being black and even worse they try to hide their racism which is to me worse than being blunt and saying that they hate black people. Nobody can truly no the black mans struggle. Seriously. Ya'll are Asian and white you have stereotypes but ya'll stereotypes are positive. All asians are smart,white people have money. Then what do I get faced with? Black people are stupid,poor, and will never amount to anything. All we do is live off of welfare and do drugs and have kids. I don't know but there was nothing positive about what people think of me. AA is a means of help to me. I have to work HARDER than the "average" white person just to be known. AA will help me get into places where they probably wouldn't allow me in even though i am a very smart and ambitous person. People can say what they want to say about AA but in reality it does help. How can somebody who is not black who is not in the program tell me that it is hurting me and my kind. How would they know they didn't interview black students. I would go to an all black school but i don't want to limit myself there are good black schools such as Spellmen, Xavier(in new orleans),Morehouse(a male college),Dillard, Howard and so on. But without AA blacks would decline in apply to those white colleges because they already know that the dean of admissions would by pass them because they are black thinking that blacks can't do anything. I'm tired of that. People who are not involved in the AA program can say what they want and can say it is hurting me, when all actuality they don't even know what it is about.

[redsoxbaby87]

it is wrong. they should just accept you because of your qualifications, not because they have to fill some qouta.

[Spirited Away]

Seriously. Ya'll are Asian and white you have stereotypes but ya'll stereotypes are positive. All asians are smart,white people have money.

I understand what you're saying, but I just wanted to clear something up.

Not all stereotypes are positive. In fact, we get made fun of a lot of times, especially for our language if we happen to be "fob".

My Mom had the darnest time trying to enroll me to school when I was younger. There were no Vietnamese translators on site (but there were plenty of Hispanic translators), and the person who helped her was soooo rude that I remember her face til this day. Now days, if someone was rude to my Mother, I let them have a piece of my mind.

Most Asians don't get respect for their size and accents, they usually have to work for it.

[ComradeRed]

^I'm tired of hearing that I am not qualified for something. You want to complain how much AA is racist and you are being racist yoruself, so what does it matter.

Unsubstantiated claim. I'm not being racist at all. The fact is that many people--regardless of race--are not qualified for positions they want.

Nowhere do you prove I am being racist, nor have you presented any facts to even refute my argument that blacks are being held to a consistently lower standard by affirmative action.

It does help me overcome racial circumstances. You cannot say it doesn't because you are not black you have not faced what black people have faced. I actually hate when people say stuff like what i said but it is so true. Growing up black you have to face so many obstacles because people hate yo ufor being black and even worse they try to hide their racism which is to me worse than being blunt and saying that they hate black people.

Then I can make an equally valid argument that you don't know what it's like to be Asian, to be stereotyped as someone who always is a nerd, etc. Of course I have not faced what black people have faced, but you have not faced what white, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, etc. people have faced. And what is this with people "hiding their racism"? HOW are they hiding their racism? How have you found it? Is it possible that you are just being venegeful and/or paranoid?

Nobody can truly no the black mans struggle. Seriously. Ya'll are Asian and white you have stereotypes but ya'll stereotypes are positive. All asians are smart,white people have money. Then what do I get faced with? Black people are stupid,poor, and will  never amount to anything. All we do is live off of welfare and do drugs and have kids. I don't know but there was nothing positive about what people think of me.

Stereotypes are just that--stereotypes. It's ludicrous and just as stereotypical to says that "all people believe blacks are stupid" as it is to just come out and say "blacks are stupid". There are positive stereotypes about blacks as well, as really good athletes, etc. But those stereotypes are rarely held by people in positiosn to determine college admissions. Moreover, if college admissions officers believe those stereotypes, then WHITE people should get affirmative action. The reason is simple-- colleges are trying to break away from the "Ivy mold" of rich and privileged. If someone comes off as rich then colleges will reject them more often. You argue that whites are stereotyped as rich. Using your argument, I could therefore argue that whites face discrimination in admissions and should get affirmative action. But certainly, that isn't a reasonable proposition is it?

AA is a means of help to me. I have to work HARDER than the "average" white person just to be known. AA will help me get into places where they probably wouldn't allow me in even though i am a very smart and ambitous person.

A lot of "very smart and ambitious" people are rejected at top colleges. The definition of a selective college is that they select. Maybe there's a white person who is all-around a better student? Why is it FAIR that AA should help you at his expense. Moreover, most black students are harmed by AA. AA encourages black students to apply to schools where they will be academically isolated. This results in MASSIVE black dropout rates. In California before they ended AA, the black dropout rates at Berkeley and San Jose were both over 70%. After California ended AA, the dropout rates returned down to a healthy 10-15%. The reason? Black students who should have gone to San Jose were recruited to Berkeley, where they were put in classes that they were not academically prepared for. It is better to graduate from your second choice than to flunk out of your first choice.

People can say what they want to say about AA but in reality it does help. How can somebody who is not black who is not in the program tell me that it is hurting me and my kind. How would they know they didn't interview black students.

"me and my kind" is EXACTLY the kind of racist thinking that got us into this mess. Why can't you treat people as INDIVIDUALS and not as blacks or whites or Asians or Hispanics? High black dropout rates and racial polarization may not harm all blacks, but it certainly harms a significant number.

I would go to an all black school but i don't want to limit myself there are good black schools such as Spellmen, Xavier(in new orleans),Morehouse(a male college),Dillard, Howard and so on

Yet if a "good school" declared itself all-white, everyone would instantly complain of racism.

But without AA blacks would decline in apply to those white colleges because they already know that the dean of admissions would by pass them because they are black thinking that blacks can't do anything.

Unsubstantiated claim! You have presented NOTHING to refute my observations that blacks are NOT discriminated against by the deans of admission at top colleges, and in fact, are held to a much lower standard than whites. The fact that the average black student applies with an SAT score several hundred points lower than an average white student at Ivy League Universities and are accepted at three times higher the rates proves beyond all reasonable doubt that whites, not blacks, suffer from the most intense forms of discrimination in college admissions.

I'm tired of that. People who are not involved in the AA program can say what they want and can say it is hurting me, when all actuality they don't even know what it is about.

One-sided emotive plea. Comparable to Bin Laden saying "People who are not involed in terrorism can say what they want and can say it is hurting me, when all actuality they don't know what it is about." Even if it IS helping you the fact remains that it is hurting US unfairly. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that a rejection letter would hurt black kids, but not white kids. It is absolutely racist to say that black kids deserve special help--or even to group kids into "black" and "white" or other artificial race groups instead of treating them like the unique individuals that they deserved to be treated as.

[Sumiaki]

You're too good at debating. lol. Never in my life will i ever debate against you lol

[onenonly101]

Unsubstantiated claim. I'm not being racist at all. The fact is that many people--regardless of race--are not qualified for positions they want.

Nowhere do you prove I am being racist, nor have you presented any facts to even refute my argument that blacks are being held to a consistently lower standard by affirmative action.

I wasn't talking to you, i pointed ^ to the person above me.

Now let me read the rest of what you said

[onenonly101]

And what is this with people "hiding their racism"? HOW are they hiding their racism? How have you found it? Is it possible that you are just being venegeful and/or paranoid?

Trust me i am not being paranoid, you know when someone doens't like you because of your color. People hide their racism by saying they aren't racist but then they act differently towards because you are a different color, they talk down to you and do things as that. You know when someone doesn't liek you because of your race.

There are positive stereotypes about blacks as well, as really good athletes, etc. But those stereotypes are rarely held by people in positiosn to determine college admissions.

That is what i was saying the good things about black people are not going to be put in perspective like all the negative stereotypes.

Why is it FAIR that AA should help you at his expense. Moreover, most black students are harmed by AA. AA encourages black students to apply to schools where they will be academically isolated.This results in MASSIVE black dropout rates. In California before they ended AA, the black dropout rates at Berkeley and San Jose were both over 70%. After California ended AA, the dropout rates returned down to a healthy 10-15%. The reason? Black students who should have gone to San Jose were recruited to Berkeley, where they were put in classes that they were not academically prepared for. It is better to graduate from your second choice than to flunk out of your first choice.

You are saying that blacks aren't up to par with academics.

Berkeley has been able to diversify its freshman class and, at the same time, greatly strengthen the class academically. If we compare by quintile the freshman class of fall 1994 with that of fall 1984 on any academic measure, we find the fall 1994 freshman class stronger from top to bottom. Ninety-five percent of the students admitted to Berkeley meet or exceed minimum UC requirements, placing them among the top 12.5% of California's high school graduates. Following UC Regent guidelines, Berkeley has historically chosen from among the full range of the top 12.5%, which includes the overwhelming majority of all admitted minority students. The other 5% are admitted by exception because they are recruited athletes or because they have overcome remarkable hardship and have demonstrated the potential to succeed at Berkeley. This 5% includes students of every ethnicity and racial group.
It is important to note that Berkeley admits a number of white and Asian American applicants with lower grades and test scores than many African American and Hispanic students

Most minorities DO NOT fail because of it.
Berkeley's overall graduation rates have climbed steadily over the past 15 years and are the highest they have ever been. The campus' current overall six-year graduation rate of 80% is much higher than the six-year rate of 48% for the fresman class of 1955, at a time when the undergraduate student body was overwhelmingly white. Not only are the graduation rates for all students going up, but the rates for African American and Chicano students are going up faster than the rates for Asian and white students, so that the gap between different ethnicities continues to narrow.
In addition, Berkeley's one-year persistence rate is the highest it has ever been: 94% of the freshmen who entered in the fall 1992 returned for a second year.

"me and my kind" is EXACTLY the kind of racist thinking that got us into this mess. Why can't you treat people as INDIVIDUALS and not as blacks or whites or Asians or Hispanics? High black dropout rates and racial polarization may not harm all blacks, but it certainly harms a significant number.

How is what i said racist? Maybe i shouldn't have used the word kind, but people of different races ARE different. I don't need statistics and scientifical facts to tell me that. There are some things that just are, and that is one of them. Me saying that does not mean I don't treat people as individuals. black white asian hispanic whatever you are a person but it doesn't mwan you are different, and are more alike with people of the same race.

Unsubstantiated claim! You have presented NOTHING to refute my observations that blacks are NOT discriminated against by the deans of admission at top colleges, and in fact, are held to a much lower standard than whites.

Before AA did you see large amount of blacks being let into colleges by the dean of admissions?Until the mid-1960s legal barriers prevented blacks and other racial minorities in the United States from entering many jobs and educational institutions. Although women were rarely legally barred from jobs or education, many universities would not admit them and many employers would not hire them.

Yet if a "good school" declared itself all-white, everyone would instantly complain of racism.

IF the schools says they are in all white school, who cares. Like you said we have all black schools.

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that a rejection letter would hurt black kids, but not white kids.

and never did i say it wouldn't hurt white kids.


Somehow people think that by hiring under represented groups their jobs are being threatened, or they are giving minorities jobs are wrong.That is wrong because white men are still holding most of the position and minorities are still struggling to be hired in larger numbers

Until we truly have a color-blind society, however, people will always wonder whether women of color qualify for positions. Women of color often have to work harder just to get the respect that their white male colleagues enjoy as a birth right. The presumption favoring white males seems to be that they are qualified until they prove otherwise. With women of color, the presumption seems to be that they are unqualified until they prove otherwise.

it is wrong. they should just accept you because of your qualifications, not because they have to fill some.

Quotas, are illegal. What is permitted under current affirmative action instead are benchmarks, targets and goals.


How is it hurting the U.S.? When 95% of top corporate executives are white males?

Racism is power plus discrimination. The parameters of discrimination based on race are distinguished by the power dynamics. Reverse racism is not, therefore a reality if people of color are not in positions of power and perpetrating the discrimination

the selection of unqualified candidates is not permitted under federal affirmative action guidelines and should not be equated with legal forms of affirmative action.

[ComradeRed]

[quote]Trust me i am not being paranoid, you know when someone doens't like you because of your color. People hide their racism by saying they aren't racist but then they act differently towards because you are a different color, they talk down to you and do things as that. You know when someone doesn't liek you because of your race.[/quote]

And what makes you think this only happens to black people? Certainly, it happens to white people as well, who may be regarded as snobs, etc. Or to Asian people. This can happen to anyone. Most importantly and furthermore, what makes you think that affirmative action isn't killing a fly with a sledgehammer?

[quote]That is what i was saying the good things about black people are not going to be put in perspective like all the negative stereotypes. You are saying that blacks aren't up to par with academics.[/quote]

No, I said SOME blacks aren't up to par and got in from affirmative action, which in the end hurt them because they flunked out.

[quote]Berkeley has been able to diversify its freshman class and, at the same time, greatly strengthen the class academically. If we compare by quintile the freshman class of fall 1994 with that of fall 1984 on any academic measure, we find the fall 1994 freshman class stronger from top to bottom.[/quote]

Interesting, considering California's affirmative action was considerably WEAKENED in 1977 by the Supreme Court case of Bakke vs. U-Cal, and also the fact that affirmative action was continually weakened, until abolished by an OVERWHELMING majority of Californians in 1996.

[quote]Ninety-five percent of the students admitted to Berkeley meet or exceed minimum UC requirements, placing them among the top 12.5% of California's high school graduates. Following UC Regent guidelines, Berkeley has historically chosen from among the full range of the top 12.5%, which includes the overwhelming majority of all admitted minority students. The other 5% are admitted by exception because they are recruited athletes or because they have overcome remarkable hardship and have demonstrated the potential to succeed at Berkeley. This 5% includes students of every ethnicity and racial group.[/quote]

A professor at Princeton calculated that 80% of students who apply to Ivy League universities meet minimum Academic Requirements... the fact remains that even if you meet the minimum, you will still feel academically isolated if everyone does better than you.

[quote] It is important to note that Berkeley admits a number of white and Asian American applicants with lower grades and test scores than many African American and Hispanic students[/quote]

Perhaps for being athletes, etc., but on average, in 1993 the average African American or Hispanic student was admitted with an SAT of 300 points lower and a GPA of 1.0 lower than a white or Asian student. By 1997 (after Prop 209), there was no significant difference between the scores of different races.

[quote]Most minorities DO NOT fail because of it.
Berkeley's overall graduation rates have climbed steadily over the past 15 years and are the highest they have ever been. The campus' current overall six-year graduation rate of 80% is much higher than the six-year rate of 48% for the fresman class of 1955, at a time when the undergraduate student body was overwhelmingly white. Not only are the graduation rates for all students going up, but the rates for African American and Chicano students are going up faster than the rates for Asian and white students, so that the gap between different ethnicities continues to narrow.[/quote]

In 1955, the freshman class had a really high dropout rate because of "White Man's Affirmative Action" -- legacy, etc. In both cases we can blame the same thing--people being moved up above their qualifications. Moreover, the reason that graduation rates for African American and Chicano students has been rising so fast recently is because, in 1996, the State of California ended affirmative action in its public schools. The move, Proposition 209, passed by over a 70% margin -- including nearly half of minority voters.

[quote]In addition, Berkeley's one-year persistence rate is the highest it has ever been: 94% of the freshmen who entered in the fall 1992 returned for a second year.[/quote]

If 8% of the class is black (to be proportional to the population of the country), then black students could have a 70% dropout rate--as statistics suggest--and the overall graduation rate could be as high as 95% (of course, the overall graduation rate was considerably lower).

If affirmative action really does help black people, then I ask-- why did over 45% (along with 75% of whites) vote in FAVOR of abolishing affirmative action? Because they saw too many cases of black students failing when they should have succeeded ... and too many cases of white students using AA to hate blacks.

[quote]How is what i said racist? Maybe i shouldn't have used the word kind, but people of different races ARE different. I don't need statistics and scientifical facts to tell me that. There are some things that just are, and that is one of them. Me saying that does not mean I don't treat people as individuals. black white asian hispanic whatever you are a person but it doesn't mwan you are different, and are more alike with people of the same race.[/quote]

This only strengthens the white supremacist argument. It goes like this:

If people of different races are indeed different, then one can attribute differences in people to race. If this is true, it is clear that historically, white people have performed the best. Therefore, one could argue that the lower scorings of blacks can be attributed to race. In other words, saying that race is a handicap. Refer to my post above about why handicap affirmative action is moronic.

Of course, I don't agree with that, but it appears to be the clear implication of your argument -- that black people are handicapped on account of race.

[quote]Before AA did you see large amount of blacks being let into colleges by the dean of admissions?Until the mid-1960s legal barriers prevented blacks and other racial minorities in the United States from entering many jobs and educational institutions. Although women were rarely legally barred from jobs or education, many universities would not admit them and many employers would not hire them.[/quote]

First question, no, largely because blacks at the time were mostly not qualified due to social inequities. The solution to that is to improve education, not use affirmative action.

Second question, the First Amendment granst the Freedom of Association. Employers who do NOT recieve government funding have the Constitutional right to association. An inherent part of association is discrimination (when you associate, you also refuse to associate with others). An inherent part of FREE association is discrimination on whatever basis one so chooses, including race.

An example: I don't have to be your friend. If I hate you because you are black, I have a legal right to have nothing to do with you.

Similarly, if I own a store, it's MY store... I ought to have the legal right to only let people I want in. If I don't want to let black people in, I'm a racist, I'm a bigot, I'm not a nice guy... but I am still within my rights as a citizen of a Republic.

[quote]IF the schools says they are in all white school, who cares. Like you said we have all black schools. [/quote]

Yet you want to force affirmative action on schools, which would make it impossible for a school to declare itself all-white.

Let's be realistic. If Harvard declared itself all-white, do you really think there wouldn't be a public uproar?

[quote]and never did i say it wouldn't hurt white kids.

Somehow people think that by hiring under represented groups their jobs are being threatened, or they are giving minorities jobs are wrong.That is wrong because white men are still holding most of the position and minorities are still struggling to be hired in larger numbers[/quote]

Why is it justified if it hurts people? Furthermore, you are once again treating people as mere pawns in your race game. While it is true that whites may make up a majority of a given field, that is no consolation to an INDIVIDUAL white person who is denied a position that is rightfully his.

People are individuals. By treating them as mere parts of a "race" you are only creating more racism.

[quote]Until we truly have a color-blind society, however, people will always wonder whether women of color qualify for positions. Women of color often have to work harder just to get the respect that their white male colleagues enjoy as a birth right. The presumption favoring white males seems to be that they are qualified until they prove otherwise. With women of color, the presumption seems to be that they are unqualified until they prove otherwise.[/quote]

That simply isn't true. You have provided no evidence to support that. Presumptions are much more commonly based on things like what college you went to, etc. The underlying causes of inequality are underlying causes, not racism itself. The fact is -- in situations where a black person is IDENTICAL to a white person -- he is several times more likely to be offered a position, largely due to affirmative action.

Even if affirmative action were abolished de facto, blacks would still have a tremendous advantage in the college admissions over whites, simply because colleges want to look diverse, and break out of the "Ivy Mold". The advantage held by blacks might not be 400 points worth, but a 100-200 point advantage would undeniably exist.

[quote]Quotas, are illegal. What is permitted under current affirmative action instead are benchmarks, targets and goals.[/quote]

Which achieve the same amount of discrimination, just less honestly.

[quote]How is it hurting the U.S.? When 95% of top corporate executives are white males?[/quote]

Stop grouping people. I'm an Asian male, and I don't care how well another Asian male does. It's not a consolation to a white student who is rejected that ANOTHER white student got in... If all people of the same race were the same, the point would be moot because there would only be like 6 people in the world.

[quote]Racism is power plus discrimination. The parameters of discrimination based on race are distinguished by the power dynamics. Reverse racism is not, therefore a reality if people of color are not in positions of power and perpetrating the discrimination[/quote]

Okay, fine. If racism is POWER AND DISCRIMINATION, then affirmative action is THE main source of racism in this country. The most powerful agency in the country is the government. It is the agency perpetrating affirmative action. The government is far more powerful than the KKK. If you define racism as discrimination PLUS power, than one could make a very good argument that the KKK is not racist, because they have no real power any more. Does the KKK influence your college admissions? No. But the government does.

[quote]the selection of unqualified candidates is not permitted under federal affirmative action guidelines and should not be equated with legal forms of affirmative action. [/quote]

Who determines what unqualified is? Unqualifed means that you weren't good enough to get a position. If you needed affirmative action to get that position, then you were, by definition, unqualified. Your only qualification was a legal fiat.

You have still not refuted any of my evidence showing that, at Ivy League and other highly selective institutions -- black students (who, on average, have lower qualifications) are accepted at a rate of over THREE TIMES higher than white students. According to Michele A Hernadez, former admissions officer at Dartmouth, the average white student would need SAT I of 1300 and IIs of 650, and a rank near the top 10% of his class to even be considered, whereas a black student would need only an SAT I of 900, SAT IIs of 400, and rank in the top HALF of the class. A white student with those qualifications would have trouble getting into Penn State, much less an Ivy League university.

And finally, none of this matters because affirmative action is about to die. Recent gallup polls show that 3/4 of Americans, including almost half of minorities, support ending affirmative action. The Supreme Court ruled against it THREE TIMES and only narrowly upheld a very strict form of affirmative action in a 5-4 decision. Affirmative action might have been saved for 5 more years, but it can feel the Sword of Damocles hanging over its head. Sooner or later, taxpayers are going to be pissed off that their kids are being turned into sacrificial lambs. Sooner or later, every state is going to follow the example of California, and let the people vote -- the result of which will not be in question.

[onenonly101]

[quote]And what makes you think this only happens to black people? Certainly, it happens to white people as well, who may be regarded as snobs, etc. Or to Asian people. This can happen to anyone. Most importantly and furthermore, what makes you think that affirmative action isn't killing a fly with a sledgehammer?[/quote]

I never said it only happened to blacks. All I said was people hiding their racism in general.

[quote]No, I said SOME blacks aren't up to par and got in from affirmative action, which in the end hurt them because they flunked out.[/quote]

You never said some you said most blacks.
[quote]Moreover, most black students are harmed by AA. AA encourages black students to apply to schools where they will be academically isolated.This results in MASSIVE black dropout rates.[/quote]

[quote]Interesting, considering California's affirmative action was considerably WEAKENED in 1977 by the Supreme Court case of Bakke vs. U-Cal, and also the fact that affirmative action was continually weakened, until abolished by an OVERWHELMING majority of Californians in 1996.[/quote]

That does not refute that the class was strong and affirmative action was still in place, weakened or not.

[quote]A professor at Princeton calculated that 80% of students who apply to Ivy League universities meet minimum Academic Requirements... the fact remains that even if you meet the minimum, you will still feel academically isolated if everyone does better than you.
[/quote]

No, if 80% meet it on the minimum requirents then you wouldn't be isolated if you made the minimum requirements because only 20% of the entire school made above minimum.

[quote]Perhaps for being athletes, etc., but on average, in 1993 the average African American or Hispanic student was admitted with an SAT of 300 points lower and a GPA of 1.0 lower than a white or Asian student[/quote]

It doesn't matter if they were athletes or not because the fact still remains the same.

[quote]This only strengthens the white supremacist argument. It goes like this:

If people of different races are indeed different, then one can attribute differences in people to race. If this is true, it is clear that historically, white people have performed the best. Therefore, one could argue that the lower scorings of blacks can be attributed to race. In other words, saying that race is a handicap. Refer to my post above about why handicap affirmative action is moronic.[/quote]

Honest question, where did yo uget that outof my post? All i said was that people of different races are different. I never said anything about accomplishment or that anyone was inferior. You pulled that our of the sky.

[quote]If affirmative action really does help black people, then I ask-- why did over 45% (along with 75% of whites) vote in FAVOR of abolishing affirmative action? [/quote]

45% is still not half of the black population in California. Some people vote in favor to abolish it because they feel as though the program is making them inferior. What opinion polls also reveal, however, is that, by and large, voters do not know very much about what affirmative action comprises, the scope of federal affirmative action policies, and who benefits (or is hurt) by these policies. As a result, public opinion is shaped to a greater extent by social attitudes and beliefs about recipients (e.g., minorities and women) rather than by solid information about affirmative action policies themselves.

In America surveys show that most people want to maintain some form

[quote]and too many cases of white students using AA to hate blacks.
[/quote]

No, even before AA some white hated blacks. People cannot use AA as an excuse for their hate.

[quote]That simply isn't true. You have provided no evidence to support that. Presumptions are much more commonly based on things like what college you went to, etc. The underlying causes of inequality are underlying causes, not racism itself. The fact is -- in situations where a black person is IDENTICAL to a white person -- he is several times more likely to be offered a position, largely due to affirmative action.[/quote]

Presumptions are more commonly based on race. Presumptions come from the evident stereotypes are alrwdy presented. When someone see you they don't see what college you came from they see what you look like. And they base who you are since they do not know you on your race and how they have seen someone of your race act.

[quote]Even if affirmative action were abolished de facto, blacks would still have a tremendous advantage in the college admissions over whites, simply because colleges want to look diverse, and break out of the "Ivy Mold".[/quote]

Maybe the first few years because they will think the public will think that they accpeted those people in because of affirmative action. Then after it dies off, it will be back to the same, so I think. No college is diverse.

[quote]Which achieve the same amount of discrimination, just less honestly.
[/quote]

Goals and quotas are two different things.

[quote]Stop grouping people. I'm an Asian male, and I don't care how well another Asian male does. It's not a consolation to a white student who is rejected that ANOTHER white student got in... If all people of the same race were the same, the point would be moot because there would only be like 6 people in the world.[/quote]

First, don't be a hypocrite. You have been grouping people this entire debate. So you cannot try to call me out saying i am grouping people, when all i did was present a fact. That 95% of top corprate executive are white males, and that AA obvivously is not making a dent in that. So how is it hurting?

[quote]Who determines what unqualified is? Unqualifed means that you weren't good enough to get a position. If you needed affirmative action to get that position, then you were, by definition, unqualified. Your only qualification was a legal fiat.[/quote]

The hiring company decides what unqualified is. If the qualifcations for the job is a BS in Law and 3 years of legal work. And you fit the qualifications(because nowhere does it you have to be a certain race) then you are qualified for the job. And if you do not have a BS in LAw then you are unqualified so then you cannot make it into the job with or without AA.

[quote]Okay, fine. If racism is POWER AND DISCRIMINATION, then affirmative action is THE main source of racism in this country.[/quote]

No, because the people affirmative action are helping are NOT in power.
That is why the program was implicated to help a minority in ANY situtation get the representation they deserve and need.

Affirmative action works. There are thousands of examples of situations where people of color, white women, and working class women and men of all races who were previously excluded from jobs or educational opportunities, or were denied opportunities once admitted, have gained access through affirmative action. When these policies received executive branch and judicial support, vast numbers of people of color, white women and men have gained access they would not otherwise have had. These gains have led to very real changes. Affirmative action programs have not eliminated racism, nor have they always been implemented without problems. However, there would be no struggle to roll back the gains achieved if affirmative action policies were ineffective. Affirmative action programs have been effective in many areas of public life because they opened up opportunities for people who would not otherwise have them, including white women and men.

The original concept and idea of affirmative action is good. Though alot of the programs need to be redefined and mended.


I don't think the entire program will die out. Ibelieve that it will be restructured

[ComradeRed]

[quote]I never said it only happened to blacks. All I said was people hiding their racism in general.[/quote]

Then why does that justify AA if people hide racism against everyone?

[quote]You never said some you said most blacks.[/quote]

Most blacks aren't qualified for Ivy League schools. Most whites aren't qualified for the Ivies either. There's nothing racist about it -- it's pointing out a general trend that exists regardless of race. I never said "all" blacks or blacks in general.

[quote]That does not refute that the class was strong and affirmative action was still in place, weakened or not.[/quote]

It DOES refute the point that affirmative action was the reason that the class was strong. The class was weaker with a strong affirmative action program than a weaker one.

[quote]No, if 80% meet it on the minimum requirents then you wouldn't be isolated if you made the minimum requirements because only 20% of the entire school made above minimum.[/quote]

You misunderstand. 80% OF APPLICANTS meet the minimum requirements. The top schools in the country usually only let in 20% of the appliocants -- i.e., the 20% that made above minimum.

[quote]Honest question, where did yo uget that outof my post? All i said was that people of different races are different. I never said anything about accomplishment or that anyone was inferior. You pulled that our of the sky.[/quote]

If races are different, than the entire rationale for AA is destroyed. If races are different, that means that they account for differences. I can bring up statistical evidence to show that blacks on average get lower grades and SAT scores than whites. If you say that races are different, than I can infer that you are arguing that blacks, as a general principle, perform worse because they are DIFFERENT than whites -- thus reducing 'blackness' to a handicap, and destroying the whole rationale for AA.

[quote]45% is still not half of the black population in California. Some people vote in favor to abolish it because they feel as though the program is making them inferior. What opinion polls also reveal, however, is that, by and large, voters do not know very much about what affirmative action comprises, the scope of federal affirmative action policies, and who benefits (or is hurt) by these policies. As a result, public opinion is shaped to a greater extent by social attitudes and beliefs about recipients (e.g., minorities and women) rather than by solid information about affirmative action policies themselves.[/quote]

What polls? And how can polls test your knowledge of a policy? Californian university students, who are among the most well-informed about affirmative action, were also the demographic that voted most overwhelmingly to abolish it (over 75%).

[quote]In America surveys show that most people want to maintain some form
[/quote]

Show me the surveys. Every poll I have come across from a relatively unbiased source shows that AA is unpopular. I have never seen above 40% support for it in Nationwide polls, even in liberal ones.

[quote]No, even before AA some white hated blacks. People cannot use AA as an excuse for their hate.[/quote]

So? With AA, even more people hate blacks. It's a perfectly valid excuse.

100 years ago, when white people were given special preference to get into the top colleges, etc., when there was white man's affirmative action, LOTS of black people hated white people because of that. Why are white people not allowed to hate black people FOR THE SAME REASON? That's pure hypocrisy.

[quote]Presumptions are more commonly based on race. Presumptions come from the evident stereotypes are alrwdy presented. When someone see you they don't see what college you came from they see what you look like. And they base who you are since they do not know you on your race and how they have seen someone of your race act.[/quote]

Anecdotal at best. What if someone's life was saved by a black person?

[quote]Maybe the first few years because they will think the public will think that they accpeted those people in because of affirmative action. Then after it dies off, it will be back to the same, so I think. No college is diverse.[/quote]

Of course college isn't the most diverse place in the world. In college, everyone pretty much agrees that education is important, everyone is pretty much smart, etc. If I wanted to experience true diversity, I could go on a tour of the country. College isn't the place for that.

[quote]Goals and quotas are two different things.[/quote]

So is lethal injection and firing squad.

[quote]First, don't be a hypocrite. You have been grouping people this entire debate. So you cannot try to call me out saying i am grouping people, when all i did was present a fact. That 95% of top corprate executive are white males, and that AA obvivously is not making a dent in that. So how is it hurting?[/quote]

I'm grouping people because Affirmative Action CREATES those groups. When dealing with affirmative action, the people are already grouped. But before affirmative action exists, these groups do not. Affirmative action may not be hurting most white males IN GENERAL, but it sure as hell is hurting alot fo them.

[quote]The hiring company decides what unqualified is. If the qualifcations for the job is a BS in Law and 3 years of legal work. And you fit the qualifications(because nowhere does it you have to be a certain race) then you are qualified for the job. And if you do not have a BS in LAw then you are unqualified so then you cannot make it into the job with or without AA.[/quote]

But if more people fulfill BS in Law and 3 years of legal work than positions are available, than the standards are raised.

If a college has 1000 spots, and requires an SAT of 1200, but 2000 people with SATs of 1200 apply, then the college raises its standard so that only 1000 people are qualified. The college might raise its standard to an SAT of 1300 so only 1000 people can get in. A black person with SAT of 1250 would get in under affirmative action -- even though he would be unqualified under revised conditions.l

[quote]No, because the people affirmative action are helping are NOT in power.[/quote]

But the people who are actually doing it are.

The people the KKK are helping are rednecks who have no power whatsoever. Under your definition, my argument still holds -- the KKK is not racist.

[quote]That is why the program was implicated to help a minority in ANY situtation get the representation they deserve and need. [/quote]

ANY situation -- so a black person who's parents are Harvard lawyers making $500,000 a year each is somehow "disadvantaged" while a welfare white student from Mississippi has the representation he deserves and needs?

[quote]Affirmative action works. There are thousands of examples of situations where people of color, white women, and working class women and men of all races who were previously excluded from jobs or educational opportunities, or were denied opportunities once admitted, have gained access through affirmative action.[/quote]

And, by the Zero-Sum nature of affirmative action, each of those examples means another example of a more qualified white or Asian male rejected.

Furthermore, don't even bring up "white women" -- women have MORE opportunities today than men. Do you want enrollement statistics?

Brown University: 53% female
Yale University: 51% female
University of Pennsylvania: 52% female
Cornell University: 51% female
Princeton University: 49% female
Harvard University: 52% female

I could not find stats from Dartmouth or Columbia, but at five of the six Ivies I did find, Women outnumber men.

The gap is even wider at public schools -- women make up 56% of the student body at Penn State University.

If anything, men need affirmative action.

Furthermore, whites make up approximately 70% of the population, whereas at Harvard, whites are only 65% of the student body. If whites really do control the country and are racist, as you suggest -- why are whites UNDERrepresented at Harvard University? In fact, the ONLY Ivy League University (except Dartmouth and Columbia, which I can't get stats for) where whites make up more than 70% of the student body is Yale -- and even then, they only make up 72%.

[quote] When these policies received executive branch and judicial support, vast numbers of people of color, white women and men have gained access they would not otherwise have had. These gains have led to very real changes. Affirmative action programs have not eliminated racism, nor have they always been implemented without problems.[/quote]

And, has, in fact, increased racism -- by giving white people who otherwise tolerated blacks a reason to hate blacks.

[quote] However, there would be no struggle to roll back the gains achieved if affirmative action policies were ineffective. Affirmative action programs have been effective in many areas of public life because they opened up opportunities for people who would not otherwise have them, including white women and men.[/quote]

How have they opened up opportunites for white women and men? It seems to me that they only took away their opportunities.

[quote]The original concept and idea of affirmative action is good. Though alot of the programs need to be redefined and mended.


I don't think the entire program will die out.  Ibelieve that it will be restructured[/quote]

A great example of permanent affirmative action is Zimbawbwe -- where a white minority is given special legal status in a black government, which makes many blacks hate both whites, and their own black government.

Or Southeast Asia -- where the economically dominant Chinese have, in many countries, been persecuted to create "opportunities" for local peoples who do not have as money -- resulting in several economic crashes, most famously in Thailand, Malaysia, and the Phillipines.

And finally, you still have not addressed the fact that affirmative action causes blacks to fail school. According to US Government Statistics: http://www.bls.census.gov/cps/pub/1997/int_race.htm, whites have a 17.2% college dropout rates, Asians have a 12.8%, while blacks have an overwhelming 19.1% dropout rate. Not surprisingly, the lowest black dropout rates come from states such as California where affirmative action is nonexistent.

[onenonly101]

First why do you only bring up Ivy league, never did i say AA is only effective in ivy league