for Christians and atheists Options

[angel-roh]

that sure was a long read...but wow.. but i didnt get about the heat and the cold...and the philosophy stuff...it gived me a headache...cause i didnt get it lols but oh wells newais... so ur saying that the professor is an atheists, right? so an atheist vs. christian... well of course we cant see God...but we can feel the warmth from God... from wat God has done for u...also hes not giving evil to this world...the satan is...and the devil is a fallen angel.... he just didnt want to be in God's side...he rejected his word and became selfish...so it's the satan's fault...no matter how different religion trying to make christians to make them fail to believe in Jesus Christ... we, christians cant believe in other religions. i mean like the mormons were doing advertising by going to ppls house and asking these questions like wat the professor was saying up there...that's devil's word...it's coming from the devil... the evil spirit goes into their body...and trying to tell the christians to be a mormon... so yeah... i think that was messed up wen other religions are trying to make Christians ppls turn to the other religions like the buddhism... and other religions that doesnt believe in God... thats just messed up. just leave us, christians alone. if u dont want to do that...then the evil spirit is inside u. it's trapped inside u... if u want it to get it out from u, then u shud stop judging and stuff... i wont say the atheists are bad... i dont need to judge. i just need to sit and just think about the christians and not the other religions... thats wat ur supposed to do..it's like some ppls nowadays are challening... for example like Elijah and these ppls who was worshipping other idols...Elijah was cocky and confident and told him that his God is the greatest and most powerful...it's like challenging whose God is better... i dont want to say that Elijah did a bad thing.... im just saying that... o....... i dont know but um.... umm... omg... my mind is completly blank.... ack... look wat the satan is trying to do to me... ...

[Spirited Away]

i think that was messed up wen other religions are trying to make Christians ppls turn to the other religions like the buddhism... and other religions that doesnt believe in God... thats just messed up.

I think what you've said right there is messed up

BUDDHISTS do NOT try to convert others, EVER. Sure, they talk of enlightenment when there is a need to explain things, but I've never heard of one Buddhist who would try to make Christian or ANYONE for that matter to convert.

I think you have the wrong religion here.

Buddhists usually stay quiet and ignore what other people have to say about their faith. On the other hand, there are plenty of Christians who would argue and argue to prove their faith.

If you only meant to use Buddhism as an example, then fix it, because I think you have the wrong religion.

You take that back!

just leave us, christians alone. if u dont want to do that...then the evil spirit is inside u.

Woa. Do you know that hardcore Buddhists do not want to even kill an ant that's biting them? They love life and do charity/good deeds all their life. Do you consider them to be possessed by the Devil?

[dreaming.of.ange...]

umm.. im new... and im loving the debate forum with all my heart right now...

first off before i contribute to this post let this be said.
I AM A TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC.
that means that i am not christian there are a major differences... (in fact ill probably start a topic about that...) but i do believe in god and for this topic thats all that matters
therefore due to my religion i will be undeniably bias... theres no way to help it so i am truly sorry if i offend anyone.

okay for those who are atheists... let me ask u this
what made the world? how did everything come to be? science? evolution?
think about the age old question "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"
think about it... seriously ask urself. because if u say it the egg well then tell me... how did the egg come to be? evolution again? but thats not possible now is it? after all something HAD to lay the egg right?

someone previously asked these questions: (the person i think was sadolakced acid) and i think answering these will get my point across... i hope

1. if god is perfect, and god created everything, then why is what he created flawed?

he gave us free will because he loves us that much... enough to let us choose whether or not we want to follow him and believe in him

2. the student (2nd one) failed to adress why god refuses to help people hurt, wounded, exc.

God is wise beyond human comprehension... for each individual he has a plan for them... even if they may not understand it themselves

3. if the professer had asked the student, how many times has science saved your life? probably lots of times. maybe you needed a C section to be born. maybe you broke your bone once. maybe you had a bad infection that pennicilin cured.
science has saved million.
how many does god save?

who gave the world science? how did we obtain the necessary skills to use science? penicillin was an accident wasnt it? do u think that was just a coincidence? something in this world obviously controls the strings we fail to see... and i believe its god

4. you say god is just, exc. wel, i have asked people. and according to the bible, a completely good person who's only fault is they don't belive in god, they would burn for eternity, whereas the completely evil mass murderer repents 5 seconds before his death and gets baptise, he goes to heaven?
what kind of twisted god is this?

ok... gods merciful... if u ask for mercy it will be granted. and ur question is a theory... there is no person thats completely good not one human... not a catholic, or a christian, or an atheist, etc. etc. so how could u ask that? it doesnt work like that... and the only way that that mass murderer would go straight to heaven is if he confessed every single one of his sins... something i doubt many can do (or remember...) because of that he will spend a looong time in purgatory... catholics have indulgences that are basically sets of prayers and things u do to help one of those souls get out of purgatory sooner... most are for 300 days or so... so that gives u an idea of how long u stay in purgatory
unfortunately, i doubt that will convert any atheists ( and no thats not what im trying to do... i dont think anyone religion tells u to go and convert ppl... ppl who try to convert others made that choice by themselves) but i hope this helps... but in the end everything all comes down to what u believe in and ur life because if u were brought up as a christian ull probably stay one and if uve had a hard life ull question god and doubt him

WHOA!
that is a looong post... gomenasai minna-san... got a lil carried away there

[T00000]

both sides are right in a way. Yes, God exists, but No, he is not good. He is Great, as in POWERFUL, but he is not good. Some things that he do may be good, but others arent. And that's to keep the world balanced.

pardon my stupid post... its late

[Spirited Away]

[quote=dreaming.of.angels,Jul 7 2004, 12:27 AM] umm.. im new... and im loving the debate forum with all my heart right now... [/quote]
This argument has already been brought up many times. Check out the "god" (I) topic, there are over 50 pages of arguments, and many are like yours. Good points, but many of them have already been answered, so I'll try to answer the ones that have been argued.

[quote]I AM A TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLIC.[/quote]
I think Kyro is one, too. But just so you'd know, I'm a humanist Agnostic (even Deist at times), not Atheist.

[quote]what made the world? how did everything come to be? science? evolution?
think about the age old question "what came first, the chicken or the egg?"
think about it... seriously ask urself.  because if u say it the egg well then tell me... how did the egg come to be? evolution again? but thats not possible now is it? after all something HAD to lay the egg right? [/quote]
^^^ already have been debated in "god" and "Chicken or the Egg" topics.

Those questions have been asked repeatedly, and still no compromising answer.

[quote]he gave us free will because he loves us that much... enough to let us choose whether or not we want to follow him and believe in him[/quote]
^^^ If He let us choose, then why do we get punished if we choose not to believe?
This point has also been debated.

[quote]God is wise beyond human comprehension... for each individual he has a plan for them... even if they may not understand it themselves[/quote]
If He has plans for us, then He might've forseen that we'd be non-believers and planned us that way, right?

[quote]who gave the world science?[/quote]
Science is nature itself and scientists only work to learn/understand/defy nature. So the question you must ask is: who gave Nature? According to Wiccans, God/ess exists in Nature. According to me, a Creator created Nature. According to many Atheists, Science is Creation itself.

[quote]how did we obtain the necessary skills to use science? penicillin was an accident wasnt it?  do u think that was just a coincidence? something in this world obviously controls the strings we fail to see... and i believe its god[/quote]
You can go ahead and believe that it's God, Atheists and some Agnostics believe it was science and the genius of man. We obtain the skills to survive (make science and technology to our convenience) through evolution.


[quote]ok... gods merciful...  if u ask for mercy it will be granted.  [/quote]
He only grants mercy to those who BELIEVE in Him. In that, I think He's unjust. This was also already debated many times over.

[quote] there is no person thats completely good not one human... not a catholic, or a christian, or an atheist, etc. etc.  so how could u ask that? it doesnt work like that...[/quote]
Actually, he had every reason to ask that.

According to many Christians, non-believers will go to Hell, no matter what they do because of their "free will".

[quote]and the only way that that mass murderer would go straight to heaven is if he confessed every single one of his sins... something i doubt many can do (or remember...) because of that he will spend a looong time in purgatory...[/quote]
Tell me if this is true or not, because I thought it was only a rumor a while back. Didn't Hitler confessed, and was "forgiven"?

[quote]but in the end everything all comes down to what u believe in and ur life because if u were brought up as a christian ull probably stay one and if uve had a hard life ull question god and doubt him[/quote]

Not only that, but also if one simply choose to have free will, and believe in whatever they see as "right".





[quote]both sides are right in a way. Yes, God exists, but No, he is not good. He is Great, as in POWERFUL, but he is not good. Some things that he do may be good, but others arent. And that's to keep the world balanced.[/quote]

Agreed!

[F_L_I_P]

too damn long to read! umm do athiest only not believe on God?

-Flip-

[Spirited Away]

too damn long to read! umm do athiest only not believe on God?

-Flip-

Sure. I don't think they believe in any Higher Power at all.

But there are differences between Atheism and Agnosticism.

I suggest you read some of the pages to avoid asking or debating points that have been brought up many times over.

[F_L_I_P]

Sure. I don't think they believe in any Higher Power at all.

But there are differences between Atheism and Agnosticism.

I suggest you read some of the pages to avoid asking or debating points that have been brought up many times over.

So that all religions right?

-Flip-

[Spirited Away]

So that all religions right?

-Flip-

I don't understand your question.

If you mean that Atheists do not have a religion, then that's true because many believe only in concepts and refuse to believe in any God/s.

[onenonly101]

both sides are right in a way. Yes, God exists, but No, he is not good. He is Great, as in POWERFUL, but he is not good. Some things that he do may be good, but others arent. And that's to keep the world balanced.

God is good, there would no point to him if he weren't good.

The idea that God decides our eternal destiny goes against our American notions of fairness and individual choice. And yet we draw strength and omfort from the belief that God is running the universe. Which is right? Is God truly sovereign, is he callin the shots, or are people free and ultimately responsible for making their own decisions, even those that have eternal consequences? It raises that question in the account of Pharaoh in Ezekiel 32. It raised itself about another Pharaoh too in the Exodus account of the pharaoh who held the Israelites captive. Did God know even before he put pharaoh in charge that he would sin? Did God allow it or cause it? Or did God simply roll the dice placing this man in authority without knowing whether or not he would obey his command to let his people go? If so does that mean that since Creation, God has been a spectator in human events, allowing us total freedom in responsibility? Either conclusions leads to some awesome implication. If God is truly sovereign, then I have no real freedom, and I'm just a puppet. But if I am truly free to do whatever I want, then God isn't really in control of the universe. This is from a different angle: Theologian J.I. Packer was asked, If God is truly sovereign, in what sense is man responsible? And if man is truly responsible, in what sense is God sovereign?. Packer replied I think it is a mystery, and that there's not much getting behind that. The really suprising thing would be if we really could understand God. Then he wouldn't be any bigger than we are." Sovereignity, responsibility,predestination,free will and mystery. the Bible teaches them all. It is not contradictory to accpet two truths because when you think about it, it makes sense that God is bigger than our minds, big enough encompass what seems to us to be paradoxical.

The twin truths of predestination and free will are parallel lines, we don't know how to bring them together, yet no one could make them cross either.

So as you see my post was pretty pointless and cleared up nothing :P

[Spirited Away]

If God is truly sovereign, then I have no real freedom, and I'm just a puppet. But if I am truly free to do whatever I want, then God isn't really in control of the universe.

But if God "plans" for us, does that not make us puppets anyway? Note, I do not believe in a Higher Being having complete control over my destiny.

Where you disagreed, I agree, because I do see the Creator as a spectator, nothing more, nothing less. That is the true meaning of free will is it not? Allowing humans to do as we please. We shouldn't even have to have "choices" because the word "free" is free of any limiting contraints, and choices are contraints.

Theologian J.I. Packer was asked, If God is truly sovereign, in what sense is man responsible? And if man is truly responsible, in what sense is God sovereign?. Packer replied I think it is a mystery, and that there's not much getting behind that.

God would be sovereign, when He allows Man to have some control over his/her fate. In this case, God is still the ruling power/decision maker (sovereign), and Man is responsible for carrying out the order (of having responsibility over his own fate). Does God not care to compromise this?

The twin truths of predestination and free will are parallel lines, we don't know how to bring them together, yet no one could make them cross either.

I'm afraid that's too symbolic/deep for me to understand and reply. Care to explain?

[onenonly101]

Ok it is like(ugh i say like too much)

You know how lines are parallel, never intersecting.

Well free will is one line and predestination is one line. some people may say that they over lap each other and makes one false, but you cannot prove it does that. So even though they could mark out the other one it they can't. They cannot cross.

I don't know if that really explained it.

Does God not care to compromise this?

But then it would be taking away the gift of free will. Soemtimes i think maybe it would be better for Him to take control of it right then, but for some reason He doesn't. There are some things God shoes to us and other things he doesn't explain to us and i figure that this is one of those situations that he onlys know for then better.

[redsoxbaby87]

this is the smae thing as with the muslim and its stupid. its pointless and tiemwasting. can we please move onto something more important?
oh and by the way...I AM A JEW.

[Spirited Away]

Ok it is like(ugh i say like too much)

You know how lines are parallel, never intersecting.

Well free will is one line and predestination is one line. some people may say that they over lap each other and makes one false, but you cannot prove it does that. So even though they could mark out the other one it they can't. They cannot cross.

I don't know if that really explained it.

but like I said, free will shouldn't have any limitting constraints, because in essences, the "free" in free will means the liberty have control.

Erm, I still don't understand the example . Someone said that God have plans for all of us. Well, what if he planned that I not believe in Him?

But then it would be taking away the gift of free will. Soemtimes i think maybe it would be better for Him to take control of it right then, but for some reason He doesn't. There are some things God shoes to us and other things he doesn't explain to us and i figure that this is one of those situations that he onlys know for then better.

But it wouldn't be taking away free will:

If He ordered us to have free will and left us to our devices, then He would still be the sovereign who made the law, and we would still have free will. We could then "freely" choose to believe or not to believe and not have to worry about punishments.

[*CEP*]

this is the smae thing as with the muslim and its stupid. its pointless and tiemwasting. can we please move onto something more important?
oh and by the way...I AM A JEW.

Like how the Yankees are so cool?
And how they're gonna most likely kill the red sox even with curt schilling.
Yeah, we should talk about that.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[xHalf nHalf]

man that was an awesome read

i wish i wouldve gotten here sooner to give some of my input on alot of comments

[Spirited Away]

i wish i wouldve gotten here sooner to give some of my input on alot of comments

It's not too late to tell us what you think. I would love to hear another's opinion on this topic.

[xjjajeengx]

WOOOAHHHHHHH omg. if that guy who stood up like that was real, then woah i would go marry him right now just kidding...

i totally am in awe right now. that is SOOO TRUE

No, we do have free will. God wants us to be part of his plan, thus he lets us make our own decisions. However, he does not FOLLOW our own wills. So whatever path we choose, if it is not God's will, he does not follow our will. SO, its not a punishment from God, it is a punishment from our OWN decision.
We make our decision whether we want to believe or not. God just doesnt want us to goto hell, so he wants us to believe. I mean, he created us; what kinda God would create his sons and daughters and leave us to torment in hell? That is why God tries so hard to show us things at times, like love, compassion, mercy, etc. But, he leaves us to decide whether we're going to have faith in him despite all the chaos in this world or not. Whether we make believe or not, that is up to us, and, that also includes the price we pay if we choose the wrong path.

hope i made sense there.

[Spirited Away]

No, we do have free will. God wants us to be part of his plan, thus he lets us make our own decisions. However, he does not FOLLOW our own wills. So whatever path we choose, if it is not God's will, he does not follow our will. SO, its not a punishment from God, it is a punishment from our OWN decision.

Ah, we have "free" will, but we must follow God's definition of free will.

Okay, gotcha... or maybe not.

Are you sure that's free will? Lets see, Someone graced me the power to think for myself, but if I think too much and go out side of that Someone's circle and explore, then I'd get punished because my sense of free will got carried away.

Wait a minute, isn't "free will" limitless? If so, then how can "free will" ever be 'too much' or 'carried away' or wrong for that matter?

If God gave me free will, then He gave me the ability to get carried away, to think too much, to be wrong and yet right, in His eyes. After all, free will was His idea. Why should someone be punished because of following God's idea?

Do you think that's fair?

We make our decision whether we want to believe or not. God just doesnt want us to goto hell, so he wants us to believe.

If He REALLY didn't want us to go to Hell, He shouldn't have given us "free will". Or atleast, gave more proof of His existence/involvement in our lives than the fabled Bible.

*Note that I do not emphasize the question of His existence, but I do question Religion and the credibility of Bible itself*

I mean, he created us; what kinda God would create his sons and daughters and leave us to torment in hell?

That's what I want to know. Why create us, and punish us when we use free will.

But, he leaves us to decide whether we're going to have faith in him despite all the chaos in this world or not. Whether we make believe or not, that is up to us, and, that also includes the price we pay if we choose the wrong path.

If more than half of the world's population pray for world peace, do you think we'll get it through the mercy of God? If that happens, then I'd believe in God's involvement in human life, if not, then forget it. Nothing is convincing enough.

Yea, I pay the price for His ideas. I get punished because He decided to give free will, that's NOT REALLY free will.

I just don't get it.

[princess2113]

u have freedom in the US right...i mean the governement doesnt stand by ur door n be like "u cant do this" they try to help by enfocing laws and things like warning on ur speed...God does that 2...He sends signs and gives us the Laws(The 10 Commandments) He doesnt stand there for everything and FORCE u to not do it...but if u break the law, u go to jail right, or sume other punishment...same with God...u are punished if u dunt follow the Laws...one Law is to love God

[Spirited Away]

u have freedom in the US right...i mean the governement doesnt stand by ur door n be like "u cant do this" they try to help by enfocing laws and things like warning on ur speed...God does that 2...He sends signs and gives us the Laws(The 10 Commandments) He doesnt stand there for everything and FORCE u to not do it...but if u break the law, u go to jail right, or sume other punishment...same with God...u are punished if u dunt follow the Laws...one Law is to love God

Ah, but it is silly to compare the Almighty with a mortal law.

The government can be what we make of it. It bends by the will of the people, if that will is strong enough. After all, we MAKE governments, we can overthrow it if its laws oppresses/condems us.

Are you suggesting that we can overthrow God?

[redsoxbaby87]

I believe but just for the purpose of being difficult...

how do you know that the bible is correct?

[danyo]

Well free will is one line and predestination is one line. some people may say that they over lap each other and makes one false, but you cannot prove it does that. So even though they could mark out the other one it they can't. They cannot cross.

I'm not sure what this meant but the way i see it is that God has a plan for you assuming you are a follower because if you are not a follower of God, HE has no power over your freedom of choice that HE already gave to you, which is also why HE cant force you to believe because HE can't take that freedom of choice away. So one line is the plan HE has for you, a good life, a very rich life, not meaning with earthly riches and what not but peace and love within you.
"Someone who is rich is not one who has alot, but needs the least."
And the other line isn't really there, it is being drawn as you live, and HE is trying to make the line over lap as much as possible so that you can have what HE has instore for you. And if you do start following that line, you will know because HE will bless you with alot of wonderful things.

God made heaven and hell.
Heaven for us, hell for satan.
See, through God we are "saved" from satan and if we aren't saved, we are either followers of satan OR we are following satan's plans without even knowing it. So basically, you end up in hell.. not for punishment but because you did not take the sacrifice that Jesus has given you to pass. Jesus is like a ticket[through Jesus' blood we are cleansed, not meaning we are a better person but, He erases the wrong we do. Doesn't mean we do less wrong because that is still based on how you live with your freedom of choice that has been given.]. into Heaven and if you don't have it[don't take it, and love Jesus and God for that and live to for HIM], you can not enter because HE can not let any of the "unclean" inside Heaven.

See, it's not a punishment that God has given to us if we don't make the right choice. It's the matter of which path you take. here is an example of what i mean.. hope it works..
Donghaeng...walking with him
and please don't be offended by one going up and the other going down.. i know not all non-believers mess around, playing your whole life and take the easy way. and also, if you are a non-believer now and become a christian later, you've been climbing ever since the first doubt because since you went throu so much, you are stronger in your faith, you're higher up the stairs, closer to the kingdom of heaven, and you defeated alot of doubts that some cant. if dat doesnt make sense, just know that i know its not true that non-believers have a easy life. life is tough.

Erm, I still don't understand the example . Someone said that God have plans for all of us. Well, what if he planned that I not believe in Him?

Lets say that there is a God, why would HE plan for you to not believe in HIM? if you dont then HE will try lots of things to show that HE does exist. Everyone in this world is family to HIM because if HE does exist, HE made you. HIS love for you is greater than any love a person give to a person because he gave you the feeling of love.

[Spirited Away]

Lets say that there is a God, why would HE plan for you to not believe in HIM? if you dont then HE will try lots of things to show that HE does exist. Everyone in this world is family to HIM because if HE does exist, HE made you. HIS love for you is greater than any love a person give to a person because he gave you the feeling of love.

Because then God would be selfless and love ALL His children the same.

There are parents who love their children regardless of who they are and what they do in love. Those parents are selfless and self-sacrificing. God isn't anywhere near selfless if He expects something in return.

Sure, I can almost hear you say that GOD SACRIFICED HIS ONLY SON for us to live in Paradise and that's the most self-less act ever!!! Not really. There are people who would sacrifice their own lives to save those that they love as well.

There are goodness and evil. If God is the foundation of goodness then He will embrace all goodness, not just favor a few and disregard the others.

[acidbreeze]

Whoo yay!
That explained a lot.
At first, I thought you were going to show proof of no God though the professor but then the second student proved him wrong.

I probably will read both of those books.
Good points, all of you.