Is the Confederate Flag Racist? Options

[onenonly101]

Many people have different views on this. Some say no because the flag is their heritage and many say yes because of what it represents now i nthe present. So the question is If the Confederate Flag Racist.

This was started on another forum and this is what i had to say (keep in mind some people were replying back so, sorry if i repeated my self in any sentences, also it was also starting to talk about the war)

My opinion on the confederate flag is all over the place actually. i think that it the ways it is used can be racist. it started off as a symbol of pride and finished off as a symbol of haterd. many people have twisted the flag and its view to make it as a symbol of haterd not only against blacks, but jews, hispanics, catholics, and anyone who was not like them. Personally i do not think that there should have been a confederate flag in the first place because as the so called United States we shouldn't have ever divided ourselves.

Ok when i say it has turned out to now be a symbol of racism i mean that when the flag first came about it was all about southern pride and heritage and what not. but after the civil war when the KKK was created they used the flag as a symbol of haterd of minorities and when in the 50s when all the hate groups were becoming even more fired up against blacks they waved around that flag at all their meetings when they were saying i hate blacks, jews, and everybody who isn't me. some people now still see it as only a symbol of heritage, but you have to put yourself in a minorties body and see what we see when every time you see the flag it is always associated with somethingd bad as racism, what more can you think.

I don't think anyone said the war was just about slavery. It was about states rights and slavery because the question of states rights arose because of slavery. The thing is now the flag is associated with all the hate groups. They don't have the right to use it but it doesn't change the fact that they do use it. When everything is all done and said with all people will remember is that neo-nazi, kkk, and other hate groups used that flag.
I say i don't like to see the flag because all i see is hate.

I haven't been taught to only see hate. I actually used to believe that is wasn't racist, when everyone said it was. The thing is that when i started researching things like the Civil war and other things I realized the intentions of it weren't meant to be racist but it is now and there is nothing to change that.

Ya'll keep saying it wasn't over slavery. The reason the states succeeded to union wqas because of slavery. The issue of states right to govern and allow to have slaves is what caused the split. If there wasn't the issue of slavery i can bet there wouldn't have been a civil war.
How can a flag hold your heritage. There is no more Confederacy so you there shouldn't be the Confederate flag. How can you love a flag that represents separation?.
Like i said before you have to look from the other point of view. I've been on both sides and everytime i see that flag it is behind someone saying they agree with separation. take how you wanna, but in my eyes it is racist,

I never said the north was dead set against slavery or that northern states didn't have slaves so i don't know how that got into the agrument. Also they returned the slaves bcak because there was rewards, everybody is money hungry AND laws. Also those states that had slave in the north went with the succession with the south so then they were apart of the confederacy.
Poor people did have slaves. Most of the southerners yeah weren't rich enough to buy many slaves, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have slaves. Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. Also the states who were near the north weren't considered nothern states they were ocnsidered borderline states. And they did not suceede to the Confederacy.
I shouldn't have said if i did, slavery was the only reason. The slavery issue however was the largest issue and the one of most concern. Other factors like politcally stemmed from slavery because before they made the 3/4 compromise, people in the North said if they are just property then they shouldn't be counted toward the voting rep in Congress, but the Southerns disagreed because the more people the more reps you could have. That was one of the issues that started the Civil War.The South also suceeded because they though Lincolin was going to free slaves even though he never advocated abolishing slavery.
But back to the flag

I meant to ask ya'll before what Confederate do you love or whatever. Because for example Georgia's flag up until 2001 was not the original Confederate flag it was a Confederate flag put up to protest the Supreme court's decision on Brown vs. Board of Education.
The flag is a representation of slavery because there wasn't a confederate flag until the succession. What i don't understand is how you say you have an alliegence to a flag of a nonexistent place. There is no more Union or Confederacy it is simply the United States of America. Yeah the Confederacy consisted of southern states but doesn't mean that it should represent the states or what not.

finished sorry it was alot

[juliar]

To add on to my argument..Lincoln once said

If I could keep the slaves in slavery [or something like that] and keep the Union together, I would.

Show any significance of slavery in the war?

[ComradeRed]

To add on to my argument..Lincoln once said

Show any significance of slavery in the war?

The full quote, which I already posted earlier, is:

"If I could save the Union by not freeing any slaves, I would do that. And if I could save the Union by freeing all of the slaves, I would do that. And if I could save the Union by freeing some slaves and leaving others alone, then I would do that too."
--President Abe Lincoln

[Spirited Away]

What IS de facto?

I haven't picked a side yet.. but to answer your question:

De facto means by fact as opposed to de jure (by law). These two terms usually refer to discrimination.

An example de facto is housing patterns in a city: All blacks, whites, asians, hispanics in segregated areas of the city.

An example of de jure is a law that would allow or support discrimination. Perhaps one that says whites are able to eat at this restaurant, but blacks are not. Those laws have been eliminated since 1960s.

EDIT::

What they (comradered and machinoman) meant by de facto blockade, I think, was that the blockade was 'understood' by fact, to be a sign of war.

[T00000]

America's flag was designed during a Revolution, that was fought IN PART to protect slavery. England abolished slavery in the early 1830s, we waited for 30 more years. While slavery was not a major issue during the Revolution, it WAS an issue. It helped to actually convince teh Southern Colonies to defend New England (taxation without representation didn't hurt the Carolinas as much as it hurt Massachusetts, which was dependent on trade and such).

however we earned our independence from great britain more than 60 years before britain abolished slavery. so slavery was NOT an issue, because britain agreed with it as well. Also, I know you live in PA and not the south, you don't see to what extent people display the confederate flag. I have seen far more people display the confederate flag here in GA then I have seen people display the Ross flag in Portland, or PA, in all the years of my life, combined.

Slavery was only ONE of MANY issues at stake.

Exactly- and those who display the confederate flag aren't very educated. okay ComradeRed, if you display the confederate flag it wouldn't be racist, but those who do tend to have their confederate flag prominently displayed on their worn out pick up trucks driving around in rural Georgia, and sometimes they stray to Atlanta where we see them. I doubt they have your intellect and know the true meaning behind the war. Most people view the war as one of slavery. And those who put the confederate flag generally think of it as that as well. If they know all you know, and come up with some EXCUSE to put the flag up, they still know the controversy behind displaying it. And also, please dont get into analogies with different countries and such, because it isn't the same.

To say that the Southerners homeland was the United States is like saying Kurds are Iraqis or Palestinians are Israelis, or that American Colonials were British.

No, the South's homeland WAS the United States, because they never won the war. They were never part of something different than the US. The Palestinians aren't considered Israelis because both sides have made the effort to distinguish the difference. This argument is on whether or not this flag is racist, and I am just saying that this flag IS racist because the majority of the US believes that slavery was the reason behind the Civil War. If they had taken the time to research it, then sure, they'd realize that it WASN'T, but most people THINK it is, and the people who display the flag think it is as well. This is why the flag is racist. Because those displaying it THINK it is.

Also, sure you can be a self loathing Japanese, but I am not. Because I'm only half japanese.

[ComradeRed]

however we earned our independence from great britain more than 60 years before britain abolished slavery.  so slavery was NOT an issue, because britain agreed with it as well.  Also, I know you live in PA and not the south, you don't see to what extent people display the confederate flag.  I have seen far more people display the confederate flag here in GA then I have seen people display the Ross flag in Portland, or PA, in all the years of my life, combined.

I saw quite a few Confederate flags on sale in South Bend, Indiana. But then again, Indiana is sort of the South. How much people display something shouldn't matter to the content, should it?

Exactly- and those who display the confederate flag aren't very educated.  okay ComradeRed, if you display the confederate flag it wouldn't be racist, but those who do tend to have their confederate flag prominently displayed on their worn out pick up trucks driving around in rural Georgia, and sometimes they stray to Atlanta where we see them.  I doubt they have your intellect and know the true meaning behind the war.  Most people view the war as one of slavery.  And those who put the confederate flag generally think of it as that as well.  If they know all you know, and come up with some EXCUSE to put the flag up, they still know the controversy behind displaying it.  And also, please dont get into analogies with different countries and such, because it isn't the same.

Fine, then THEY are racist. Not the Confederate flag. And why isn't it the same?

No, the South's homeland WAS the United States, because they never won the war.  They were never part of something different than the US.  The Palestinians aren't considered Israelis because both sides have made the effort to distinguish the difference.  This argument is on whether or not this flag is racist, and I am just saying that this flag IS racist because the majority of the US believes that slavery was the reason behind the Civil War.  If they had taken the time to research it, then sure, they'd realize that it WASN'T, but most people THINK it is, and the people who display the flag think it is as well.  This is why the flag is racist.  Because those displaying it THINK it is.

Okay, so their homeland IS the United States. That isn't teh same case in 1861, when they didn't know if they were going to win or lose.

If people displaying it THINK it's racist, that doesn't mean it actually IS. That just means they are racist.

Also, sure you can be a self loathing Japanese, but I am not. Because I'm only half japanese.

Then you can be racist on both counts.

i think that it kind of is becasue it was created because southern states wanted blacks to be slaves....

[juliar]

i think that it kind of is becasue it was created because southern states wanted blacks to be slaves....

Did you read any of the arguments we had?

This is why the flag is racist.  Because those displaying it THINK it is.

They think it, but they're not using the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate, they're using it as a symbol of the Confederacy. Which [i dont think] is completely racist.

[T00000]

they're not using the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate, they're using it as a symbol of the Confederacy. Which [i dont think] is completely racist.

yes well in their educated pick up driving beaten up cars, there are people in it who aren't members of createblog. they still believe that the flag stands for slavery, because that's exactly what has been beaten over our heads from first grade to high school. and think, how many of them has any education past high school? if they were educated at all, they wouldn't display the flag because of it's controversy.

[ComradeRed]

yes well in their educated pick up driving beaten up cars, there are people in it who aren't members of createblog. they still believe that the flag stands for slavery, because that's exactly what has been beaten over our heads from first grade to high school. and think, how many of them has any education past high school? if they were educated at all, they wouldn't display the flag because of it's controversy.

To the contrary, educated people are MORE likely to engage and display controversial acts, because they CAN form their own opinion instead of just going along with the crowd. All you proved is that Southern hicks think the Confederate flag is racist, not that it is.

[Spirited Away]

I think I can see where TBoltzbabe is going with this.

Now lets just say that the flag is not a symbol of slavery. However, looking at the stand point of those who parents/grandparents were slaves, they would feel that the flag itself represents cruelty.

Those who display the flag proudly may not have any intent of flaunting the flag as a symbol of superiority, but those who suffered will see it that way.

It's sort of like psychology. Remember Pavlov's experiment with dogs, when they hear a chimming sound, they instantly drool thinking that they will be served food?
And the expiriment where a child was 'taught' to be scared of bunnies/rats? (If you don't know, I will elaborate).

The flag, in this example, is tantamount to the chime sounds and the noise that scares the child into thinking the bunny/rat was evil.

The experiments reflect human behavior as well.

People who lived during that era as slaves will retain the memory that the flag represents oppression and suffering. It's in their natural behavior to hate the flag. It's no surprise that their children will find the flag offensive as well.

[ComradeRed]

So some people find it offensive. Others might not. So what? I have the right to offend people. It says so in the First Amendment.

I can percieve ANYTHING to be racist. That doesn't mean it actually is.

[Spirited Away]

So some people find it offensive. Others might not. So what? I have the right to offend people. It says so in the First Amendment.

I can percieve ANYTHING to be racist. That doesn't mean it actually is.

Right, but the offending object is being questioned here.

We're debating whether or not it's racists. I would say that it's a point of view thing.

[JlIaTMK]

the flag isnt racist
the history behind it is....

and since we're talking about it.... Abraham Lincoln's goal for the war wasn't to rid slavery.... it was to keep the country together.... if slavery kept the country together, than he would keep it

[Mr. Psychotic]

i didnt read that much posts here but yeah the confederate flag isnt racist. its a damn piece of cloth oh yeah that is going to have hate feelings

[EmeraldKnight]

This topic's still going on? eesh..

Well.. a very good point was brought up (good job )

Right, but the offending object is being questioned here.

We're debating whether or not it's racists. I would say that it's a point of view thing.

It is a point of view.. everything is a point of view.. everyone has their own POV, their own biases.. I think the issue at hand should be which idea is prevalent.. I mean.. some people's minds.. simply cannot be changed.. there will always be disagreements.. the solution should be one to satisfy as many people as possible..

Beyond that.. I'm not realli going to post new arguments.. since I've brought them up earlier and I dont want to go back and read the posts.. <--is lazy

[Spirited Away]

some people's minds.. simply cannot be changed..

As Thomas Paine puts it: "Time makes more converts than reason".

Although it may seem to some of us as if the Civil War happened eons ago and is of no concern to us, the truth of it is that our country is still very young compared to others. There are many people who suffered slavery and passed on their stories to their children and their children's children, and so on. There are people who resent slavery and will think of the flag still as a symbol of hatred and discrimination.

There is no way to erase that past. There will always be people who lives in the present but dwells on the past and there is no changing their minds about something they adamently hates UNLESS they realize it themselves.

[ThunderEvermore]

85% of southern land owners did not own slaves during and around the civil war.

Learned that one in school.

[Spirited Away]

85% of southern land owners did not own slaves during and around the civil war.

Learned that one in school.

And you are arguing for....?

[ThunderEvermore]

Well I would say the flag isnt really racist.

Either way, a tid bit of information for you all.

[EmeraldKnight]

Well I would say the flag isnt really racist.

Either way, a tid bit of information for you all.

Exactly.. *sigh* i believe I mentioned that fact already.. way back on the first page.. but anyways.. no material possession is racist.. racism is concieved in one's mind.. some see it as racist, and others do not.. its like uninspiredfae put it.. unless we say.. brainwash everyone into the same way of thinking.. there will always be disputes about it

[onenonly101]

Ok the dicussion kinda differ from racism into slavery what thunder said really has nothing to do with it being racist. Just because 15% didn't own slaves doesn't mean they weren't racist

[EmeraldKnight]

Ok the dicussion kinda differ from racism into slavery what thunder said really has nothing to do with it being racist. Just because 15% didn't own slaves doesn't mean they weren't racist

And what about what the rest of us said? Its a flag.. and its in the past.. you cannot selectively eliminate portions of the past simply because you do not like them.. events happened and unless you bulid a time machine.. they are there and regardless of their appeal, they still made the world the way it is today

[stryker76]

I'm from the South and i feel no connection to that flag why? because the flag was of the Confederacy a place that doesn't exist anymore. The flag came about because of the sucession of the Confederacy making their own "country" the flag representated that country and like i said before there is no Confederacy anymore so how can it hold the heritage and how can you love it. The flag represents separation and discrimination and a whole lot of unpositive things because of the way it is used. Nothing will change that fact.

They flag generally repersents that yes.....but that isnt y its still around.....do you kno y the southern states separated them selves from the union....there state rights. The southern states felt that the union was imposing on there state rights.....the right to own slaves was only one of those....a very small reason...but yet the most known....much of the debate between the two was over state taxing and not following rules made by the national governement.....the flag now represents the struggle the southern states went through the defend there statehood rights.....people keep the flag because they feel that the national governement is still too powerful.....these people feel that a state governement should be more powerful then the national governement....thats what the flag represents...not racism......people are racist...not symbols....its the people choosing to make that symbol represent that......and for sayin that the Confedrate flag represents separation and discrimination then well your not much better then those that believe that is what it is......learn the heritage behind it....and ask people y they fly that flag...then form your opinion......

[EmeraldKnight]

They flag generally repersents that yes.....but that isnt y its still around.....do you kno y the southern states separated them selves from the union....there state rights. The southern states felt that the union was imposing on there state rights.....the right to own slaves was only one of those....a very small reason...but yet the most known....much of the debate between the two was over state taxing and not following rules made by the national governement.....the flag now represents the struggle the southern states went through the defend there statehood rights.....people keep the flag because they feel that the national governement is still too powerful.....these people feel that a state governement should be more powerful then the national governement....thats what the flag represents...not racism......people are racist...not symbols....its the people choosing to make that symbol represent that......and for sayin that the Confedrate flag represents separation and discrimination then well your not much better then those that believe that is what it is......learn the heritage behind it....and ask people y they fly that flag...then form your opinion......

Thank you.. good job, you know your stuff... too many ppl here state stereotypical arguments with no evidence or basis for them..

[onenonly101]

the flag now represents the struggle the southern states went through the defend there statehood rights.....people keep the flag because they feel that the national governement is still too powerful.....these people feel that a state governement should be more powerful then the national governement....thats what the flag represents...not racism......people are racist...not symbols....its the people choosing to make that symbol represent that......and for sayin that the Confedrate flag represents separation and discrimination then well your not much better then those that believe that is what it is......learn the heritage behind it....and ask people y they fly that flag...then form your opinion......

Flag representing separation is true, because the flag was made in defiance of the union and when the South suceeded so therefore it was a separation of the united states. The discrimination part is more of an opinion of mine.

Symbols can be racist. The burning cross=KKK

But I think the flag now represents racism. When the flag first came about no it didn't like you said, but now it does also represent racism, because of what happened mostly in the 50s.