for Christians and atheists Options

[*the_overachiever*]

"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"I wouldn't say that."

[No answer]

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could in fact most of us would if we could. God doesn't."

[No answer] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is Jesus good? Hmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again young fella. Is God good?"

"Err. Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From?God...?"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?"

[No Answer] "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

[No answer] The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice, he asked, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?

[No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all the evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer] "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again no whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer] "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus. In fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer] "Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID. You haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"..yes.."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please."

The first Christian sits. Defeated. Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, yet another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. IS there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than 273 degrees below zero. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at..?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes.?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it is called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error..."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed..? How dare you..!"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain...ooh, explain...?The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability himself. He weaves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look...?
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. IS there such thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues, "IF there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "AS a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

The Christian replies, I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed the evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed...?
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"

The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind? The class breaks out into laughter. The Christian points toward his elderly, crumbling tutor. "IS there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind? No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits.

[onenonly101]

I liked that

[Spirited Away]

There were already two posts like such in the debate forum and there were also replies to them.

One of them points out that the student wasn't very smart in the first place because IT IS possible to see one's brain such as through surgery or scans (MRI or CT... etc).

And the student COMPLETELY contradicts himself.

"Have you ever observed the evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

By asking such, he suggests that you don't have to see something to know that it's there.

Well, you don't have to see evolution to know that its processing/working either.

Anyway, if you would like, continue this in debate.

[hybrid]

^^ It's just a story dude.

Anyway, I thought this proved both sides. Job well done.

[*the_overachiever*]

There were already two posts like such in the debate forum and there were also replies to them.

One of them points out that the student wasn't very smart in the first place because IT IS possible to see one's brain such as through surgery or scans (MRI or CT... etc). 

And the student COMPLETELY contradicts himself.


By asking such, he suggests that you don't have to see something to know that it's there.

Well, you don't have to see evolution to know that its processing/working either.

Anyway, if you would like, continue this in debate.

the mind and the brain are different.
and i know that you don`t have to see evolution to know.. wasn`t that the student`s point??

and i didn`t write this.. nope nope.

[Spirited Away]

^^ It's just a story dude. 

Anyway, I thought this proved both sides. Job well done. 

Girl, I'm a girl.

It depends on perspective whether or not this is "just a story".

But yes, I meant to balance out both sides instead of having just one side present their belief.

edit>>

the mind and the brain are different.

Ah, so the story evolved and improved itself. Explain to me how you perceive the difference between mind and brain.

and i know that you don`t have to see evolution to know.. wasn`t that the student`s point??

Sure, and my point was why believe in one, and not the other?

[hybrid]

Girl, I'm a girl.

It depends on perspective whether or not this is "just a story".

But yes, I meant to balance out both sides instead of having just one side present their belief.

Sorry, I call everyone dude.

[Spirited Away]

Sorry, I call everyone dude.

That's okay... I'm kind of used to it now...

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

Ah, so the story evolved and improved itself. Explain to me how you perceive the difference between mind and brain.

Your brain is the big squishy thing inbetween your ears. Your mind however is that little voice in your head that never shuts up. Your mind doesn't have mass, you can't feel your mind, and it can't be detected by a MRI. The MRI will show the brain, but it doesn't show your mind because your mind is something that exists only to you.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.

[Spirited Away]

Your brain is the big squishy thing inbetween your ears.  Your mind however is that little voice in your head that never shuts up.  Your mind doesn't have mass, you can't feel your mind, and it can't be detected by a MRI.  The MRI will show the brain, but it doesn't show your mind because your mind is something that exists only to you.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. 

where does the mind come from? within yourself?
Edit:::

Because according to dictionary.com when you look up the word "mind"

The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

where does the mind come from? within yourself?

Exactly! Your mind comes from you. It's not something that grows while you're in the womb, not like an organ. It's something that developes through experience. Am I even making sense? haha, probably not.

edit:
About that dictionary.com thing- your mind originates there, but that doesn't mean thatt they're the same. Your brain is something that can be detected, but you can't detect someone's mind no matter how many tests you do. (Which is a very good thing. If people know what was going on in my mind I might not have many friends)

[Spirited Away]

Exactly! Your mind comes from you. It's not something that grows while you're in the womb, not like an organ. It's something that developes through experience. Am I even making sense? haha, probably not.

edit:
About that dictionary.com thing- your mind originates there, but that doesn't mean thatt they're the same. Your brain is something that can be detected, but you can't detect someone's mind no matter how many tests you do. (Which is a very good thing. If people know what was going on in my mind I might not have many friends)

Sure you make sense , but I don't really agree with it.

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

[x hYpErRoSeY x]

Sure you make sense , but I don't really agree with it.

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

i also agree

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

Sure you make sense , but I don't really agree with it.

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

Good, I like making sense. It's something I don't do often.

If you had no brain your mind wouldn't exist, because without a brain you'd be dead. Your mind is composed of thoughts, and if your brain has shut down how can you think?

[*the_overachiever*]

Girl, I'm a girl.

It depends on perspective whether or not this is "just a story".

But yes, I meant to balance out both sides instead of having just one side present their belief.

edit>>
Ah, so the story evolved and improved itself. Explain to me how you perceive the difference between mind and brain.


Sure, and my point was why believe in one, and not the other?

because i know that human logic and science is fallible.
and God`s word is not.

question:
why believe in one, and not the other?

hmm.. this is turning into a debate. maybe they should move it.

[*the_overachiever*]

I agree that the mind grows through experience, but without a brain, would your mind exist?

i agree too
but the brain is tangible (umm through those scans and stuff)
while the mind is not.

you guys should read
Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith
by Josh McDowell, Don Stewart

^ good book.

[*kryogenix*]

it was a good read.

[illmizzkim]

Well. I liked the story. I've read it a couple times before and I still like it. However I'm not going to go debating about this, since this isn't in the debate section.

Good topic the_overachiever

[Spirited Away]

Exactly.

So without a brain, a mind cannot exist. The brain is what forms the 'intangible' mind, however do we both agree that the brain is tangible?

The experiences that you learn is what you make of it. The brain processes all this and allows you to think, without the brain, such expriences are useless as is the mind.

Back to the story of the student, using the mind in the argument is problematic because the mind cannot exist without the brain.

because i know that human logic and science is fallible.
and God`s word is not.

In your opinion.

hmm.. this is turning into a debate. maybe they should move it. 

I didn't mean to turn it into a debate, but I don't like to see a one-sided argument.

i agree too
but the brain is tangible (umm through those scans and stuff)
while the mind is not.

The mind is originated in the brain, without the brain the mind is rendered useless, non-existent. So, the more imporant matter is the brain.

you guys should read
Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith
by Josh McDowell, Don Stewart

^ good book. 

You should go ahead and read "2000 Years of Disbelief : Famous People With the Courage to Doubt" by James A. Haught.

[*the_overachiever*]

Exactly.

So without a brain, a mind cannot exist. The brain is what forms the 'intangible' mind, however do we both agree that the brain is tangible?

The experiences that you learn is what you make of it. The brain processes all this and allows you to think, without the brain, such expriences are useless as is the mind.

Back to the story of the student, using the mind in the argument is problematic because the mind cannot exist without the brain.


In your opinion.


I didn't mean to turn it into a debate, but I don't like to see a one-sided argument.


The mind is originated in the brain, without the brain the mind render is useless, non-existent. So, the more imporant matter is the brain.



You should go ahead and read "2000 Years of Disbelief : Famous People With the Courage to Doubt" by James A. Haught.

but without the mind, what use is the brain? it just like.. sits there.

and you`re an atheist, right?

courage to doubt??
how about courage to believe?

[Spirited Away]

but without the mind, what use is the brain? it just like.. sits there.

With the brain, it is said that you exist. With the mind, you know you're human.

and you`re an atheist, right?

No.

courage to doubt??
how about courage to believe?

When we doubt, we risk Hell. I think that's braver than to believe and go to Heaven.

[Mini]

hurmm that was very interesting. i love it. have faith, have faith.

[queen]

haha good job. excellent read ;x

[*the_overachiever*]

nono you guys. i didn`t write it.

and when you believe, you make a deep commitment,
which i think takes courage.

[Mini]

nono you guys. i didn`t write it.

yeah i know that...just meant that i loved the thread.