Muslim Vs. Christian debating Options

[illriginal]

lolz

[saintsaens]

I think I'm in the mood for steak.

[emberfly]

damn their voices are annoying.

[Simba]

damn their voices are annoying.

because they're authentic African? :X

[illriginal]

Ya I don't judge people by their accents, personality, intelligence, and their over all message is more important.

[smoke]

Ya I don't judge people by their accents, personality, intelligence, and their over all message is more important.

And it's a good thing I don't judge people by their proper or improper use of grammar.

Oh, wait, I do.

[emberfly]

^ me too xD

[brooklyneast05]

i think i'm missing the big deal in this video. someone break it down for me

[illriginal]

i think i'm missing the big deal in this video. someone break it down for me

Christian thinks Jihad is something bad and only something that Muslims do. Muslim shows Christian in The Holy Bible that Jesus himself preached Jihad. Christian doesn't believe it until he reads it. Muslim laughs because he knows the Bible better than the Christian does.

Oh and also the Muslim points out that in Islam as Monotheists, we worship the Creator (God). While Christians worship a creation (Jesus) of the Creator.

[brooklyneast05]

oh yeah, i think i just get mixed up about the word jihad as a whole. it seems the word is thrown around all the time in different contexts or used in different ways. for example, it seems like i hear it on the news, but it's not the same context as here. i don't if anyone knows what i'm talking about.

[illriginal]

oh yeah, i think i just get mixed up about the word jihad as a whole. it seems the word is thrown around all the time in different contexts or used in different ways. for example, it seems like i hear it on the news, but it's not the same context as here. i don't if anyone knows what i'm talking about.

Yeah, you know the media lol

From an Islamic scholar:

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to express our deep appreciation to you for the great confidence you have in us and we hope these humble efforts of us meet your expectations.

First, we would like to start with stating that Islam does not call for violence; rather it abhors all forms of violence and terrorism, whether against Muslims or non-Muslims. Islam, moreover, calls for peace, cooperation, and maintaining justice, and provides for the happiness and welfare of humanity as a whole. This fact is declared in the Qur'an when Allah says: (Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.) (An-Nahl 16: 90)

Islam makes it obligatory upon Muslims to stand by the oppressed regardless of their race, color, religion or affiliation and say NO to the oppressor and ask him to respond to the voice of reason and justice.

As regards the question you posed, we would like to cite for you the fatwa issued by the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, that reads:

Jihad is one of the words that have been misused due to misunderstanding its true meaning. The word “Jihad” is derived from the Arabic word “Jahd” which means fatigue or the word “Juhd” which means effort. A Mujahid is he who strives in the Cause of Allah and exerts efforts which makes him feel fatigued. The word “Jihad” means exerting effort to achieve a desired thing or prevent an undesired one. In other words, it is an effort that aims at bringing about benefit or preventing harm.

Jihad can be observed through any means and in any field whether material or moral. Among the types of Jihad are struggling against one’s desires, the accursed Satan, poverty, illiteracy, disease, and fighting all evil forces in the world.

There are many religious texts that refer to these types of Jihad. Among the forms of Jihad is defending life, property or honor. Those who die while engaging in Jihad are considered to be martyrs, as confirmed by Hadith. Jihad is also done to avert aggression on home countries and on all that is held sacred, or in order to face those who try to hinder the march of the call of truth.

In Islamic Shari`ah, Jihad in the Cause of Allah means fighting in order to make the Word of Allah most high, and the means for doing so is taking up arms in addition to preparation, financing and planning strategies. A large number of people are supposed to take part in Jihad including farmers, craftsmen, traders, doctors, engineers, workers, security men, preachers, writers and all those who directly or indirectly participate in the battle.

This type of Jihad was a major concern of Muslims in the beginning of the formation of the Islamic community, and a lot of verses of the Glorious Qur’an and the Hadith advocated and encouraged it. Almighty Allah says: (March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor) and strive with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah.) (At-Tawbah 9: 41) Jihad is considered an individual duty (Fard `Ein), on all Muslims who are capable and fit to fight, in the event of being invaded by the enemy, and is considered a collective duty (Fard Kifayah) in the event of not being invaded. However, if the Imam (leader) calls to Jihad, people must respond to his call. This is evident from Allah’s Saying, (O you who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad) you cling heavily on the earth?) (At-Tawbah 9: 38), and the Hadith narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim, "When you are called to Jihad, then go forth."

A question arises: is taking up arms the only means to spread Islam? Fighting originally had two main objectives: the first one was to ward off an actual or an anticipated aggression, and the second one was to clear the hurdles in the path of Da`wah (call for Islam). The battles of Badr, Uhud, Al-Khandaq and others are examples of staving off actual aggression and some of them were fought in order to aid the oppressed. Almighty Allah says: (But if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them…) (Al-Anfal 8: 72). The conquest of Makkah was undertaken for the purpose of staving off an expected aggression after the Quraish had violated its covenant with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in Al-Hudaybyah; this was also the case of the expedition of Tabuk and other expeditions. It also cleared the obstacles placed in the path of Islam by enabling the Muslims to leave Madinah and spread the call to Islam all over the world because Islam is a universal message. Since Jihad was legalized in Islam and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he was sent by Allah to wage war against disbelief and that his sustenance was “tied” to his spear, as related by Ahmad on the authority of Ibn `Umar, then we have to understand that Islam advocated acquiring the highest degree of power, and the reason for this is that Islam, at that time, was a newly rising power and was expected to be “attacked” by the already existing powers to prevent it from competing with them over power – a conflict that is common to all ages.

Therefore, the new entity had to be defended in order to prove its strength and deliver its message. If Islam were a local temporary call, taking up arms would be just for the purpose of defense, but Islam is a universal call that had to reach the whole world. However, the only means at that time was traveling, which was, and still is fraught with dangers; so taking up arms was necessary to prevent the enemies from standing in the path of the Islamic call.

While arms were necessary to remove the hurdles in the past, their sole mission now is to defend Islam against those who want to harm it and harm those who embrace it. As for spreading Islam, there are several means that spare people the trouble of traveling, such as newspapers, books, the Internet and other means that have known no boarders, although they may be controlled to some extent. However, radio stations have become of such power and prevalence that they can reach people while being at home or even in bed, and they can neither be prevented by any authority, nor held back by any door or border.

The superficial understanding of the legality of fighting contained in the verses of the Glorious Qur’an and the Prophet’s hadiths may give the impression that Islam has been spread by force and that if it had not been for force, Islam would not have existed or become predominant in many countries or embraced by such a large number of people. But how could this be said about Islam which is the religion of mercy? Allah Almighty says: (But if the enemy inclines towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace and trust in Allah.) (Al-Anfal 8: 61) .The Prophet also says: "O people! Do not wish to face the enemy (in a battle) and ask Allah to save you (from calamities) but if you should face the enemy, then be patient and let it be known to you that Paradise is under the shades of swords.”

The call to Islam is not meant to be imposed on anyone, people are completely free to make their choice. In fact, creeds can never propagated by a dagger. Allah Almighty says to Noah: (Shall We compel you to accept it when you are averse to it?) (Hud 11: 28). Allah says to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him): (Wilt thou compel mankind against their will to believe!) (Yunus 10: 99); many other verses convey the same meaning.

While there are texts that explicitly indicate the absolute order to fight, there are others that restrict it to whether it is for the purpose of staving off an aggression, preventing an expected aggression or making it a punishment for violating a covenant. Allah Almighty says: (Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 190). And says: (But if they violate their oaths after their covenant and taunt you for your faith, fight thee the chiefs of unfaith.) (At-Tawbah 9:12). In fact, the previous verse specifies the meaning of the verses: (And fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together.) (At-Tawbah 9: 36), And: (And slay them wherever ye catch them.”

As for those who call for taking up arms to change the current state of the Islamic communities, we have previously said that any means of reform based on violence will not achieve its goals. In addition to this, exercising power requires extensive preparation and planning including a careful study of all existing circumstances before taking such a step, i.e. calling arms. However, this should not be understood as undermining the importance of Jihad in its general sense. Jihad will continue till the end of days in all its forms and through all its means. This is evident from the Hadith narrated by Abu Dawud: “Jihad will continue from the day I was sent by Allah till the last people of my nation fight against the Antichrist (Dajjal), it will neither be stopped by oppression nor abstention”. This Hadith denotes the continuance of Jihad in all fields including armed Jihad, is an integral element; this fact is evident from referring to fighting against the Antichrist.

Source: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...aEAskTheScholar

[Reidar]

Both Islam and Christianity preach violence. Any Arab-speaking Muslim can see it as plain as day (my hand isn't this small; it's just a huge book):

click to enlarge

"Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority."

As fiction, however, they're pretty badass. Sort of like Warhammer 40,000.

[AngryBaby]

pwnt^

[illriginal]

Both Islam and Christianity preach violence. Any Arab-speaking Muslim can see it as plain as day (my hand isn't this small; it's just a huge book):

click to enlarge

"Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

As fiction, however, they're pretty badass. Sort of like Warhammer 40,000.

War or any form of violence in the Qur'an is taught in "Times of War" or even when God believers are being "oppressed". If anyone has studied the Qur'an, they could see it as plain as day.

[Reidar]

That would be the Al-Anfāl, and it's one of the most important sections of the scripture, being a partner portion to the Sura At-Tawba. The forces of Saddam Hussein cited this as their divine permission to slaughter our Peshmerga and Kurd civilian friends.

[illriginal]

That would be the Al-Anfāl, and it's one of the most important sections of the scripture., being a partner portion to the Sura At-Tawba. The Baathist regime cited this as its divine permission to slaughter our Peshmerga and Kurd civilian friends.

And do you think they truly represent Islam? Do you think that the KKK truly represents Christianity? All of those who commit violent acts as transgressors, offenders, and or oppressors are by no means following the strict Qur'anic rules of War.

[heyo-captain-jac...]

Ya I don't judge people by their accents, personality, intelligence, and their over all message is more important.

I don't judge people by their accent, personality, intelligence, and over all message either

[illriginal]

I don't judge people by their accent, personality, intelligence, and over all message either

Holy crap... I just re-read what I posted and grammar looks horrible.


I meant that I don't judge people by their accent. What matters to me is their personality, intelligence, and their message lol

[Reidar]

And do you think they truly represent Islam?

Yes. They are abiding by what the scripture says.

It certainly was mainstream Muslims citing the offensive part of Salman Rushdie's heresy to be his crime of writing a novel, not the fatwa layed on him by Khomeini (ah, how I miss my Iranian countrymen), or when the main offense of Muhammad's depiction in a Danish cartoon was the infidelity of the publishers, not the infringement upon free speech rights.

Do you think that the KKK truly represents Christianity?

The Christian Bible doesn't call for arms against blacks, so no. The powers trying to force junk science into our schools do.

All of those who commit violent acts as transgressors, offenders, and or oppressors are by no means following the strict Qur'anic rules of War.

"Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority" is one of many.

[illriginal]

Yes. They are abiding by what the scripture says.

As transgressors? LOL C'mon Reidar, the Qur'an strictly forbids and condemns the killing of benevolence. Especially transgression and oppression.

It certainly was mainstream Muslims citing the offensive part of Salman Rushdie's heresy to be his crime of writing a novel, not the fatwa layed on him by Khomeini (ah, how I miss my Iranian countrymen), or when the main offense of Muhammad's depiction in a Danish cartoon was the infidelity of the publishers, not the infringement upon free speech rights.

Muslims take their religion a lot more serious than Christians of the West, who allow depictions of Jesus and mockeries of Jesus. God and all the Prophets/Apostles (peace and blessings upon them) of God are sacred.

The Christian Bible doesn't call for arms against blacks, so no. The powers trying to force junk science into our schools do.

Nor did it say anything about attacking non-whites in general. Yet the KKK claimed to be Christians same with King James who committed and commanded atrocities.

"Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority" is one of many.

Ok.. so you're just gonna keep using verses out of context like so many do and more than likely keep repeating them.

I will finish this discussion with you with these two videos. From Iran, from your countrymen.

[saintsaens]

Tama, the entire time you haven't been able to bring up scripture from your book that would counteract Reidar's argument. Why is this so?

You've been avoiding all the questions with vague videos and description.

[illriginal]

Tama, the entire time you haven't been able to bring up scripture from your book that would counteract Reidar's argument. Why is this so?

You've been avoiding all the questions with vague videos and description.

It's simple really, you see (he's purposely or maybe he just doesn't know) he's misusing the verses to prove how Islam is violent, the only way someone can see the full context is by reading the complete chapter. In this case, you'd have to read all of Chapter 3 to understand the context.

I'm surprised he didn't use:

[Surah 8:12] Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." (like most Islamophobes)


Which is a verse of a past time. Specifically The Battle of Badr

And for every 1 out of context violent verse, I can post 3 to combat it.

Here's an example that are out of context:

[Surah 5:32] On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

[Surah 5:33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

[Surah 5:34] Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

[saintsaens]

Yes, but there are still mentions of violence. Why.

Why don't you admit that your God has promoted violence upon a certain people? Even Christians admit that their God. (Old Testament, referred to the Judgemental/Fearful God."

[illriginal]

Yes, but there are still mentions of violence. Why.

Why don't you admit that your God has promoted violence upon a certain people? Even Christians admit that their God. (Old Testament, referred to the Judgemental/Fearful God."

Times. Of. War.

This is the only time when violence is accepted. And only in defense against transgressors/offenders/oppressors.

I already answered your question a few posts up, unless you're just reading it and not understanding it.

And for whatever Christians admit, that has nothing to do with Islam.

Also Muslims condemn those who offend, transgress, oppress, or even commits acts of terrorism.

[saintsaens]

Times. Of. War.

This is the only time when violence is accepted. And only in defense against transgressors/offenders/oppressors.

I already answered your question a few posts up, unless you're just reading it and not understanding it.

And for whatever Christians admit, that has nothing to do with Islam.

Also Muslims condemn those who offend, transgress, oppress, or even commits acts of terrorism.

Let's see some scripture.