forum reorg. Options

[micron]

in washington, you know them as "Sepcial interest groups". heard of them before?

[pandora]

i think it was a lot of peoples idea. people didn't like that all of our left-over subforums were getting pushed into Interests. Interests had so many subforums in it that everyone just got lost in there. I still think that was the case, so we decided to have more top level forums and tried to organize the subforums that used to be in Interests into smaller groups so that they were easier to browse.

people wanted the debate forum to have more of a spotlight to encourage more thoughtful posting/thinking, so we gave them that.

we put vip lounge in the lounge because it didnt have that many posts in it and we didnt think it deserved to be a top level forum, but then we got bitched out for it so we put it back to where it is now.

[NoSex]

i understand your position, but i think youre in the minority here. i think for most people, they will be more motivated to post in more popular forums, as it ensures the post being read more. this is why you see music and movies / tv topics still in "general entertainment" (Whatever taht's supposed to mean), simply because by posting htere rather than in their respective individual forums, you get more response.

1. Isn't it counter-intuitive to combine "unpopular" forums to make them "popular?" You're just arbitrarily increasing the number of posts, etc. etc.
2. A popular forum is not necessarily a good forum. When will this community adopt quality over quantity?
3. Just because a thread has more posts and more views doesn't mean it's actually being read... in fact, I would argue, in more cases than not, it means it's not being read.
4. Crazy, again, but, when I post a topic I want appropriate and meaningful replies... quality over quantity. I don't post a topic to get a million replies - I would take ten good replies any day.
5. "General entertainment," is for all that bullshit that I don't want, even further, burying good and thoughtful topics.

not to mention most of this traffic (and topics) where made previous to the organization and separation of the previously combined "entertainment" forum. in another words, after the separation, these two newly formed forums recived almost no traffic at all.

If most of the traffic was from before the reorganization, how could you possibly say that having them together again will actually (in any meaningful way) increase the traffic? Further, I have noted, personally, an increase in the quality of discussion in these subforums, given the separation. You're argument that fewer posts is bad 1) does not really demonstrate that music/movies/tv have actually become unpopular by being separated (if they were "popular" together, they're going to be less popular apart, but that doesn't mean that the separation has actually seriously altered their normal traffic streams), 2) does not encourage improvement of the community, and 3) makes an unfair (and may a say foolish) evaluation of quantity as the highest value.

Again, you're just arbitrarily adding two moderately popular subforums, in order to make a supposedly "popular" top forum. What's the point? All you're going to do is create more worthless posts and bury more meaningful ones. If your point is accessibility, you can't possibly argue that adding these forums together is a good idea: more time will be spent searching the forum for topics made yesterday!

[misoshiru]

Wait. So we're going back to the way it was originally? It's really late right now, and I'm just not reading well.

[pandora]

we're going to organize it to how jusun has outlined in his first post.

[Just_Dream]

we're going to organize it to how jusun has outlined in his first post.

"We're"? But I thought you're not on staff anymore. Or is this a general "we"? Just wondering.

[NoSex]

So you're saying we should only try and please you guys, but just ignore the rest of the population that visits this forum? A bit self centered of you guys, if you ask me.

I think what Steven was saying was that most people who don't care much for the forums, don't love or hate what they're doing here... aren't going to take notice to these sorts of changes. They might click a few more links, but, in reality this isn't going to improve the community (I could argue the exact opposite, actually). In a similar sense, those people that truly care to put in some semblance of an effort for an improved community, might be a bit more particular and a bit more vocal - it only makes sense.

Trust me, the majority of people probably don't have any serious feelings one way or the other. Are those the people you are supposedly catering to here?

The way we organize the forums should encourage members to post more.

I will still argue that this mentality is this communities primary folly.

Ban visible post counts!

[pandora]

"We're"? But I thought you're not on staff anymore. Or is this a general "we"? Just wondering.

General. Yanlin did say "So we're going..." Since my post was a response to hers, you can deduce that I am referencing the same "we" that she was talking about.

[micron]

1. Isn't it counter-intuitive to combine "unpopular" forums to make them "popular?" You're just arbitrarily increasing the number of posts, etc. etc.
2. A popular forums is not necessarily a good forum. When will this community adopt quality over quantity?
3. Just because a thread has more posts and more views doesn't mean it's actually being read... in fact, I would argue, in more cases than not, it means it's not being read.
4. Crazy, again, but, when I post a topic I want appropriate and meaningful replies... quality over quantity. I don't post a topic to get a million replies - I would take ten good replies any day.
5. "General entertainment," is for all that bullshit that I don't want, even further, burying good and thoughtful topics.
If most of the traffic was from before the reorganization, how could you possibly say that having them together again will actually (in any meaningful way) increase the traffic all too much? Further, I have noted, personally, an increase in the quality of discussion in these subforums, given the separation. You're argument that fewer posts is bad 1) doesn't not really demonstrate that music/movies/tv have actually become unpopular by being separated (if they were "popular" together, they're going to be less popular apart, but that doesn't mean that the separation has actually seriously altered their normal traffic streams) 2) does not encourage improvement of the community, and 3) make an unfair (and may a say foolish) evaluation of quantity as the highest value.

Again, you're just arbitrarily adding two moderately popular subforums, in order to make a supposedly "popular" top forum. What's the point? All you're going to do is create more worthless posts and bury more meaningful ones. If your point is accessibility, you can't possibly argue that adding these forums together is a good idea: more time will be spent searching the forum for topics made yesterday!

hi,

before you say anything further please study this carefully:

http://www.createblog.com/forums.php?sort=views

i think you misunderstood when i said we're combining music / tv / movies into one forum again and make it a top level forum. currently they are separated into three forums, "General Entertainment", "Movies/TV", "Music". Had you looked at the stats script more closely you would have realized that "General Entertainment" is the fourth mostly viewed forum (in terms of hits). So im not proposing to combine "unpopular" forums to make it "popular". Im recombining these three forums into one again because "Movies/TV" and "Music", the two separeted forums, recieve no traffic at all. most of the topics / posts were made before they were separeted, hence theres little reason why we need three when one will do.

when you say, and i quote: "'General entertainment,' is for all that bullshit that I don't want, even further, burying good and thoughtful topics.", you represent the very few minority who think that (again, look at the stats). so much bias and i have to wonder why you go through the tedious process of debate when you dont care about it in the first place? whats it to you anyway? its only one top level forum to ignore.

about quality of quantity: i generally agree with this, and createblog's quality layouts reflect this. did you know we'd have over 20k layouts if we indescriminately accepted all our layouts? but from the beginning, we accepted only layouts we precieved to be of generally higher quality. however, like so many things in life, you have to take this concept in moderation. taken to the extreme, this concept can be counter intuitive, as you see in these forums (entertainment and relationship ranked #3 and #5 in terms of traffic for community forums, are subforums). you have to understand that the majority of the forum members come here to have fun, want to relax and unwind, not to have heated conflicts, intellectional stimulation, or divulge themselves into a good debate. and when you consider that, you have to compromise and hopefully, god willing, go with the majority. in this case, the "majority" isn't the handful of dissenting voices, the "majority" is what the statistics portray.

this is when i wish i was better in english. i dont think im saying this right so i will give you another example. long time ago, cb used to be the #1 myspace layout site. but over the course of its history, there was a point when we only accepted div overlay layouts because we percieved it to be of "generally higher quality". how did this affect us? today, we're still struggling to get up there as the top providers of myspace layouts, because although div overlays have much more technical merit, the majority of the users are looking for standard layouts that they can simply copy and paste, and not fiddle around with the code.

so the lession here is: quality over quantity, ofcourse, but never alientate the majority at the expense of the minority.

once again, if you wish to reply to this, please please study the stats script so that you do not make another wrongly held assumption:

http://www.createblog.com/forums.php?sort=views

[NoSex]

Im recombining these three forums into one again because "Movies/TV" and "Music", the two separeted forums, recieve no traffic at all. most of the topics / posts were made before they were separeted, hence theres little reason why we need three when one will do.

Holy f**k! That's even worse! f**k me! f**k me!

If those two subforums aren't popular you're just going to drown all the topics associated with them with the more popular "General entertainment!" That's a f**king dreadful idea! To anyone that has any care at all for these specific subforums - you're being a jerk. You're neglecting the minority who actually care for these subforums. Now, we will all be doomed to searching for our "measly" (you used that word a lot, right?) topics buried under a bombastic barrage of "Britney SPEARSs LOL GAgs LOLSs" and "Fav celeb haircutssz."

Don't you get it, you big jerk!? That thread was separated in the first place because topics with any sort of focus on music and or movies we're pushed out from the front page all the time (and this is far more a frustrating experience than clicking on a link... twice). All this "minority" "majority" mumbo jumbo doesn't really mean much, (watch me rephrase my argument now) given that attaching two unpopular subforums to a popular one, won't make the unpopular ones anymore popular... all it will do is bury the topics associated with those less popular subforums.

You're not helping the "majority" (or hurting them really) by combining these threads (other than by reducing the number of clicks one may need to discuss their "fav celev babi"). But, what you are most certainly doing is hurting the "minority" (the people who go to the music subforum because they care about music) by diluting their topics with a bunch of ideas they probably don't even really care for. Do the people a favor, and leave their threads alone. You're only hurting the community by combining these shits like this.

What would happen to the Anime subforum if you combined it with the Lounge? It would definitely become more popular.

so much bias and i have to wonder why you go through the tedious process of debate when you dont care about it in the first place?

I care. Who said I didn't care? I care, mother f**ker!

[Tung]

I don't see why you guys are trying to make forums that aren't popular BE popular. If they aren't popular oh wells. As for the stats. I want to know if the forum reorganization had an affect for the total traffic of cB itself. Did the reorganization lower the traffic or not? And I'm not talking about the lowered traffic of certain subforums. I'm talking overall.

[micron]

Holy f**k! That's even worse! f**k me! f**k me!

If those two subforums aren't popular you're just going to drown all the topics associated with them with the more popular "General entertainment!" That's a f**king dreadful idea! To anyone that has any care at all for these specific subforums - you're being a jerk. You're neglecting the minority who actually care for these subforums. Now, we will all be doomed to searching for our "measly" (you used that word a lot, right?) topics buried under a bombastic barrage of "Britney SPEARSs LOL GAgs LOLSs" and "Fav celeb haircutssz."

Don't you get it, you big jerk!? That thread was separated in the first place because topics with any sort of focus on music and or movies we're pushed out from the front page all the time (and this is far more a frustrating experience than clicking on a link... twice). All this "minority" "majority" mumbo jumbo doesn't really mean much, (watch me rephrase my argument now) given that attaching two unpopular subforums to a popular one, won't make the unpopular ones anymore popular... all it will do is bury the topics associated with those less popular subforums.

You're not helping the "majority" (or hurting them really) by combining these threads (other than by reducing the number of clicks one may need to discuss their "fav celev babi"). But, what you are most certainly doing is hurting the "minority" (the people who go to the music subforum because they care about music) by diluting their topics with a bunch of ideas they probably don't even really care for. Do the people a favor, and leave their threads alone. You're only hurting the community by combining these shits like this.

What would happen to the Anime subforum if you combined it with the Lounge? It would definitely become more popular.
I care. Who said I didn't care? I care, mother f**ker!

hi,

this will be my last reply to you, as obviously you didnt thoroughly read or digest what i said earlier. not to mention your blatant disrespect for me.

here's my response: im sorry, but i dont cater to special interest groups. im here for the people, and im here for change, change that you can believe in.

[NoSex]

here's my response: im sorry, but i dont cater to special interest groups. im here for the people, and im here for change, change that you can believe in.

Dude, someone call him out! a-hole!

REQUEST: If I can prove that the Movie/TV and Music forums are actually very popular (without being combined to anything), can we keep them separated?

[pandora]

The minority we're talking about seems to already be pretty invested in the forum. I don't think it's necessary to get this worked up about a few minor changes to the site's layout. If you really want to continue posting here, I am sure you will find a way to accept/get used to the new set up. What we're saying here is that the majority of the population here may not be so invested as you guys are, and we'd like to encourage them to post more, and maybe become as active as you guys. Doesn't it get boring talking to the same 10 people on a forum where there are actually usually about over 1000 people signed on?

[NoSex]

Doesn't it get boring talking to the same 10 people on a forum where there are actually usually about over 1000 people signed on?

No! If they aren't invested, I don't care to talk to them. I want to discuss topics with people who are actually interested in those said topics and, further, care about what they say (concerning those topics) and how they say it.

Quality over quantity.

[pandora]

I'm not sure I follow you completely. I understand that you want to talk to people with the same interests as you; people who care about the same things you care about, or at least care about what they say. I'm not sure exactly how this change stops you from doing that...


edit:// At the risk of sounding like a kiss-ass, let's all please try to remain respectful to Jusun. I feel like sometimes we all take advantage of his hospitality. I doubt he is making these changes just to spite you guys or come off like a jerk. Anything he does is for the betterment of the site. I don't think we appreciate him enough, and it's a shame. But maybe you all have to realize that he can, at any time, decide to shut down these boards if they don't get as much traffic as we'd like. Why would he spend money on a dead site? Again, I was originally against this proposal. But if the way the forums are organized isn't the most efficient, then I'm open to change. Let's all just give it a shot.

[NoSex]

I'm not sure I follow you completely. I understand that you want to talk to people with the same interests as you; people who care about the same things you care about, or at least care about what they say. I'm not sure exactly how this change stops you from doing that...

It buries topics. My main argument is that if this is about accessibility, the forums should remain separated so that people who care to talk about those specific topics don't have to search pages-worth of threads in order to find yesterday's posts.

Clicking into a subforum might be frustrating for some (I never had a problem with it...), but I ensure you that trying to find a lost thread, buried under a bunch of crap you could careless for, is a lot more discouraging and lot more frustrating.

[pandora]

That's really only a temporary problem, isn't it? Eventually enough people bump the topics you're referring to or make new topics, and that problem goes away. I'm not sure that sacrificing a good change for the future because of a couple potential days of inconvenience is the best strategy.

[pandora]

Ok I guess I know why you guys may be so negative about this. This change is for the benefit of less active people. This isnt to benefit you guys. We get it. You might be pissed. It feels like we're neglecting you. (I say 'we' because I took a part in this plan before I stepped down.)

But on the other hand I really hope that you active people have enough faith in the site to come back even though some changes have been made. I hope to god that your dedication to the site, the amount of time you've already spent on this site, and your contributions to the forum aren't all going to goto waste because you didn't like a few changes and one or two minor and entirely temporary inconveniences. You'll get used to the new set up. Why not just give it a chance? In the process, we might earn a few more active members such as yourself. You might find more people that care about the things you care about and care about what they say. Isn't that all for the better?

I hope we're not expecting too much of you guys. Believe me your contributions thus far have not gone unappreciated. We value every member here. EVERY member. Not just you, and not just the person that posted above or below you.

[NoSex]

You might find more people that care about the things you care about and care about what they say. Isn't that all for the better?

That's a lot easier when you know exactly where to go to find people that care about exactly what you care about (say, oh, I don't know... movies, music, and television).

I agree with you in principle, bust I sincerely beg you, reconsider on combination.

P.S. Bumping doesn't work, nor is it fun.
P.P.S. If it ain't broke... don't fix it.

[pandora]

Alright, well I guess that at some point we all have to agree to disagree. I doubt anything that Jusun or I say will make you change your mind. I think that Jusun has listened to all your feedback, and believe me this isn't the last time that the subject will be revisited by the staff before any changes are made (or at least I hope not.)

[NoSex]

also, if you look at the little stats script(here), the separated Movies/TV has a measly 262896 hits, and music not doing any better with 157372 hits. not to mention most of this traffic (and topics) where made previous to the organization and separation of the previously combined "entertainment" forum. in another words, after the separation, these two newly formed forums recived almost no traffic at all.

P.S. Due to the lag of moving threads to their new respective homes (after the first reorganization) a majority of the movie, tv, and music related topics never were taken out of their original combined forum (which is now "General Entertainment"). So, you're wrong. Just check out some of the later pages inside "General Entertainment." - nearly all of them are concerning either music, movies, or television. The threads that are making "General Entertainment" so popular, actually belong in "Movies/TV" and "Music."

[pandora]

Alright, well I guess that at some point we all have to agree to disagree. I doubt anything that Jusun or I say will make you change your mind. I think that Jusun has listened to all your feedback, and believe me this isn't the last time that the subject will be revisited by the staff before any changes are made (or at least I hope not.)

[NoSex]

I completely and utterly refute one of Jusun's most basic premises (that "Movie/TV" and "Music" are unpopular) and all you have to say is "we have to agree to disagree?" Oh, come on!

Look at the numbers; they don't lie.

Look at the threads!

[pandora]

I understand your point. I just don't agree. Nothing you say will make me agree with you, and nothing I say will make you agree with me. I think the case is the same with Jusun. I think the staff will think about what you've said here when it's time to make a final decision. I don't see a point in repeating ourselves over and over.