forum reorg. Options

[micron]

PROPOSAL

introduction
the lounge
-vip lounge
pictures
music / tv / movies
relationships
academia
-books
-debate
-school
-news
entertainment
-anime
-humor
-sandbox
-sports
interests
-art
-writing
-food
-technology
lifestyle
-boys locker
-girls locker
-health
-fashion

ok. before you go berserk, here's my reasons for the reoganization proposal. looking at how the forums are currently organized, some of the more popular forums are subforums, and some of the less popular ones are top level forums. so while i was working on the reoganization (with trish, although she may or may not be for it), i wanted to emphasize organization and popularity equally. i think its important to have popular forums as top level forums for the sake of ease of use; people dont like navigating 3243242 pages just to get to the page they want. on the other end, we dont want to waste pricey real estate on forums that are seldom active. i should note that when i say "popular" i do not mean how vocal a handful of members may be for a forum, but by the amount of the forum's topics / posts - they are the best indicators of how truly popular each forum is.


POINT BY POINT

vip lounge: i think the vip lounge best fits under the lounge because, frankly, its not that popular. i know that previously there were some complaints that having the vip lounge as a subforum meant that you dont see the last post info. i think this is a moot point as you can browse the lounge while keeping an eye at the vip lounge (they are, afterall, both lounge's). and once again, it is simply not popular enough to warrant wasting real estate space.

music / tv / movies: i did two things here, combined these forums into one and made it a top level forum. i remember saying this and i will say again: people who are intersted in music are also intersted in tv and movies. in another words, these forums go hand in hand. this is pretty evident when you look at how they are currently organized (separated), and music and movies / tv has a paltry 400 topics, combined. the reason why this combined forum is a top level forum is because of its popularity.

relationships: relationship is a top level forum once again because of its sheer popularity. 6,881 topics / 144,468 replies says a lot. and it would be quite a tedious task to have to navigate several pages to get to it, when it is obviously one of the most popular communiy center forums.

academia: here's a new forum catagory containing books, debate, school, and news. i should note that debate is moved here because, quite frankly, debate isn't popular (as much as some of you say it is). if you dont beleive me, look at the number of topics (149) and number of posts (6,312), and compare that to other top level forums and you'll see there's an oddity here. whats unfortunate is the "handful" who actually go there are very vocal members, making the debate forums seem more popular than it actually is. the number of topics / replies says all, and there is no reason why it should be a top level forum. plus, and it fits better here.

entertainment: this catagory contain forums that you watch (anime, sports), and well as forums that are fun (sandbox, humor).

intersts: art, writing, food and tech go here. i dont know what else to say.

lifestyle: lifestyle is essentially the same except relationships is moved to a top level forum, and school is moved to academia.


WHY DO IT?
so, why do it? the main reason is to make it easier to access the forums that are visited more oten, and thereby improve the overal forum experience for all (or the majority). at its current organization, its sad that some of the popular forums are pushed aside as sub forums (relationships / entertainment), forcing memebrs to navigate several pages between each one. with this new proposed organization, the more visted forums will be at the tip of your fingertips.

the reoganization isnt to revitalize teh community, its to make it easier to navigate to the more popular forums. and for consistency. i find the current organization rather disorganized.


SOME STATS
ive decided to make a little script to counter those who say that the debate topics are "viewed" more often (ie the total topic / posts counts are inaccurate).

http://www.createblog.com/forums.php?sort=views

if you go down to row 10, you'll see that the debate forum has 1148277 views - that's all of its topic views added up. this may be significant, but lets compare them with other top level forums (as proposed by this topic).

The Lounge: 8708936
Pictures: 7078437
General Entertainment: 4732072*
Relationships: 3145658

*excluding the other forums that have been separated (ie movies / tv / etc, that will be combined once again)

here you can see that the debate forum is indeed rather small (in terms of posts, topics, and views). to get another perspective, the fashion forum has 1267173 views, 100,000 more views than the debate forum. sandbox and boy's locker gets twice as much traffic with 1966236 and 2069196 views respectively, and the girls locker tree times with 3336441 total views. fashion, sandbox, boys locker, and girls locker are all subforums under the newly proposed organization.

if you look at the hard numbers, i think it is somewhat silly to suggest that debate be a top level forum. if that was the case, how about fashion? sandbox? boys locker? girls locker? they all recieve more traffic, in terms of posts, topics, and views.

also, for those who like the current organization, i wonder if you browse each and every forum daily. it gets rather annoying to have to go through several pages to get to the forums you want, the way its organized now..


LAST NOTES
subforums will be directly linked from the forum index, ie instead of forum descreptions, we'll have links to the subforums. this will help improve visibility and members will be able to directly "jump" to the subforums without having to go through the forum catagory first.

this is pretty much a copy and paste from the discussion i had on backstage, please excuse my organization, grammar, spelling.

[Tung]

Lol. lots of typos there Jusun, but anyways. Statistics doesn't really speak much imo though. I still think Debate should get it's own subforum and Fashion also. I could say Sports, also, but rarely anyone are into sports.

I think Debate is getting more interest currently though maybe, as we all get older or interest sways a bit. I mean those statistics could be added up when we were still a little younger, and everyone participated in the other forums more then.

[micron]

^ sorry, i think i orginally wrote that in the wee hours of the morning and didnt check for grammer, spelling.

when you say "its own subforum", do you mean top level forum (ie, visible in the forum index?)

[*paperplane*]

I can see putting music/movies/tv together, but it doesn't make much sense to keep the entertainment forum and not have them in it. I mean, that's pretty quintessential entertainment.

You could more or less just change around the current positioning, put the VIP lounge back in the lounge (and change the damn name!), and it'd be equally as effective, I would think.

[Just_Dream]

Hmm, I C WUT U DID THAR.

Okay sorry about that.

Hmm, the way you organized it makes sense, but somehow I feel that anime should just be removed as a subforum and put into the "tv/music/film" top level forum. It's because hardly anyone visits it, so I feel that it should just be combined anyways, since it's technically television along with film. But then again, there are "manga" threads (Japanese comic books) which would belong in books then?

Now that I think about it, maybe that just makes it more confusing? Regardless, I still feel like the anime subforum isn't really that popular, so maybe it should just be incorporated into something bigger, that is all.

[rnicron]

But we JUST reorganized.

[MissHygienic]

I said it Backstage, and I'll say it again, what's the point of having Entertainment when there are lackluster forums under it? Sports and Anime could be moved under Interests, or Anime could be moved to Music/TV. And then Humor and Sandbox could be merged, somehow.

[misoshiru]

I agree with Spencer. We've JUST reorg-ed. And just gotten used to where everything is. Personally, I really do like VIP Lounge having its own subforum. Regular members can't see it anyways...so does it really have to be placed into the Lounge?

[micron]

I can see putting music/movies/tv together, but it doesn't make much sense to keep the entertainment forum and not have them in it. I mean, that's pretty quintessential entertainment.

You could more or less just change around the current positioning, put the VIP lounge back in the lounge (and change the damn name!), and it'd be equally as effective, I would think.

i think more than anything, music / movies / tv needs to be a top level forum simply because of its popularity, but i see your point here. ill mull over this during sleep and see if theres a better way to organize, or perhaps change the new "entertainment" forum catagory to something else to avoid confusion.

Hmm, I C WUT U DID THAR.

Okay sorry about that.

Hmm, the way you organized it makes sense, but somehow I feel that anime should just be removed as a subforum and put into the "tv/music/film" top level forum. It's because hardly anyone visits it, so I feel that it should just be combined anyways, since it's technically television along with film. But then again, there are "manga" threads (Japanese comic books) which would belong in books then?

Now that I think about it, maybe that just makes it more confusing? Regardless, I still feel like the anime subforum isn't really that popular, so maybe it should just be incorporated into something bigger, that is all.

i dont think anime should be removed and dumped into music / movies /tv because it has its own subculture.. and so deserves its own forum.

So is this only for the Community Center, and the Resource center remain, "as is"?

I like the proposal.

yes, only the community center. the rresource center will stay as is.

But we JUST reorganized.

sorry, i think saying "reorganized" is a misnomer. we JUST disorganized, maybe.

[NoSex]

music / tv / movies: i did two things here, combined these forums into one and made it a top level forum. i remember saying this and i will say again: people who are intersted in music are also intersted in tv and movies. in another words, these forums go hand in hand. this is pretty evident when you look at how they are currently organized (separated), and music and movies / tv has a paltry 400 topics, combined. the reason why this combined forum is a top level forum is because of its popularity.

Please, no.

It isn't hard to navigate these as two separate subforums (as it is already), and combining them would just be counterproductive to what separating them was intended to do in the first place. The popularity of the forum itself, I feel, is a deterrent to more meaningful and thoughtful discussion (I am often discouraged to post in the lounge because good threads are so quickly buried by bad ones and people rarely put thought into their posts). By combining these threads you have another burial of threads and further deemphasis on meaningful topical discussion. Ideas get lost in the shuffle, and, trying to look for a thread you enjoyed is a lot more bothersome (believe you me) than looking for the subforums (that was never hard).

There is no good reason that we should combine these threads. It's just going to result in more drive-by posting and less of a focus. If I'm looking to talk about music, I like going to the music thread. If I'm looking to talk cinema, movies/tv worked. But, combining them isn't like... "great! It's all I wanted in the same place!" It's more like, "f**k! why would anyone do this?!"

If you're organizing by popularity, whatever. But to combine subforums, in-order to make a single popular forum, just seems counter-intuitive.

P.S. I don't think a complete overhaul is necessary anyways. I like the academia idea. Move VIP, sure. But, revamping everything is just needless.

[rnicron]

Can we please leave the VIP Lounge where it is? Only 50 people TOPS can see it.

[NoSex]

Did we all just forget the reasons we organized this the way we did in the first place?

[Tung]

Did we all just forget the reasons we organized this the way we did in the first place?

Because certain people wanted to make the forum structure their way?

There was discussion about this a week ago in chat, and I can say a majority of people LIKED the way it was before.

[micron]

I said it Backstage, and I'll say it again, what's the point of having Entertainment when there are lackluster forums under it? Sports and Anime could be moved under Interests, or Anime could be moved to Music/TV. And then Humor and Sandbox could be merged, somehow.

sorry, i must have missed your psot backstage. sandbox actually recieves a lot of traffic (2x debate in terms of hits) and humor is right behind. i think i went with a new catagory instead of dumping these forums in interests catagory to keep subforums low, so that we can list and link them in hte forum index in place of the description.

I agree with Spencer. We've JUST reorg-ed. And just gotten used to where everything is. Personally, I really do like VIP Lounge having its own subforum. Regular members can't see it anyways...so does it really have to be placed into the Lounge?

Please, no.

It isn't hard to navigate these as two separate subforums (as it is already), and combining them would just be counterproductive to what separating them was intended to do in the first place. The popularity of the forum itself, I feel, is a deterrent to more meaningful and thoughtful discussion (I am often discouraged to post in the lounge because good threads are so quickly buried by bad ones and people rarely put thought into their posts). By combining these threads you have another burial of threads and further deemphasis on meaningful topical discussion. Ideas get lost in the shuffle, and, trying to look for a thread you enjoyed is a lot more bothersome (believe you me) than looking for the subforums (that was never hard).

There is no good reason that we should combine these threads. It's just going to result in more drive-by posting and less of a focus. If I'm looking to talk about music, I like going to the music thread. If I'm looking to talk cinema, movies/tv worked. But, combining them isn't like... "great! It's all I wanted in the same place!" It's more like, "f**k! why would anyone do this?!"

If you're organizing by popularity, whatever. But to combine subforums, in-order to make a single popular forum, just seems counter-intuitive.

P.S. I don't think a complete overhaul is necessary anyways. I like the academia idea. Move VIP, sure. But, revamping everything is just needless.

hi,

i understand your position, but i think youre in the minority here. i think for most people, they will be more motivated to post in more popular forums, as it ensures the post being read more. this is why you see music and movies / tv topics still in "general entertainment" (Whatever taht's supposed to mean), simply because by posting htere rather than in their respective individual forums, you get more response.

also, if you look at the little stats script(here), the separated Movies/TV has a measly 262896 hits, and music not doing any better with 157372 hits. not to mention most of this traffic (and topics) where made previous to the organization and separation of the previously combined "entertainment" forum. in another words, after the separation, these two newly formed forums recived almost no traffic at all.

[DoubleJ]

Can we please leave the VIP Lounge where it is? Only 50 people TOPS can see it.

Agreed, and I also agree with Tung, on the Fashion forum front. The VIP is fine, because it is always the same people posting in it so I don't see the need to move it. I think the problem is down where the lifestyle section is. I remember when I cam here back in November, the locker rooms were constantly active. When it got revamped and they made the lifestyle section, the locker rooms lost ground to the other places.

[hi-res]

I like the Academia idea.

As for the Entertainment structure. I'm not don't really have a problem with how it's set up now other than the fact that it's more clicks. And when I'm lazy, I don't bother clicking around all the forums. I kind of liked having everything in one convenient location.

[pandora]

I'm going to try and sum up what I said backstage days ago when this was first proposed. I was originally against this change. Personally I like the way the forums are organized at the moment. I had thought we'd received really great feedback from our members about the changes we made and any qualms they DID have with the structure, we tried to fix to their liking. But Jusun said something to me on AIM when we working this out together that night. This "good feedback" we were getting only came from a small percentage of the forum's population.

The last reorganization was meant to meet the demands/needs of the people who have posted in feedback various times. We put the VIP Lounge as its own forum for you guys because there was such a demand for it here. We gave Debate its own forum for the same reason.

So here is where we went wrong: there's only a handful of you guys posting in feedback with various complaints and demands. But look how many people there actually are on cB. Maybe the other members aren't as vocal or active, but I'm going to blame that on the fact that they get scared away by our more "popular" members. Or maybe they just don't feel the need to complain about every little thing that goes on around here. Who knows? Who cares? The changes we make should reflect the needs of everyone on this forum... not just a handful of members who happen to be more vocal.

[micron]

Because certain people wanted to make the forum structure their way?

There was discussion about this a week ago in chat, and I can say a majority of people LIKED the way it was before.

THANK YOU.

i think whats really unfortunate here is that a few (handful really) very very vocal members made hell about "reorganizing" when it didnt remotely correlate with the statistics of what really is popular and what is not. otherwise, relationship, music / tv/ music would never been pushed aside as subforums.

[rnicron]

Can I suggest that the people that are vocal about this are the ones that it actually affects?

[Just_Dream]

I actually liked Relationships as its own forum before. In fact, I hardly visit it now, which is why I understand why you wouldn't want it there as a subforum.

I just feel sorry for the anime forum, as it's kind of just sitting there, probably receiving the least amount of traffic, even if it's considered its own "subculture". :/

[Elba]

I don't think it should have ever been reorganized in the first place. It was fine the way it was for years.

[micron]

Agreed, and I also agree with Tung, on the Fashion forum front. The VIP is fine, because it is always the same people posting in it so I don't see the need to move it. I think the problem is down where the lifestyle section is. I remember when I cam here back in November, the locker rooms were constantly active. When it got revamped and they made the lifestyle section, the locker rooms lost ground to the other places.

i agree that the locker rooms lost traction after the "reoganization". another classic example of how the "organization" actually stifled activity.

ideally, id like to have the locker rooms back as top level forums. but first, id like to test out how linking them directly in hte forum index will affect their popularity.

[pandora]

Can I suggest that the people that are vocal about this are the ones that it actually affects?

So you're saying we should only try and please you guys, but just ignore the rest of the population that visits this forum? A bit self centered of you guys, if you ask me. The way we organize the forums should encourage members to post more. So far people AREN'T posting any more than they used to. The debate forum still doesn't get as many hits. It rarely gets posted in. And I haven't actually confirmed this, but I'm willing to bet the Relationships forum hasn't been getting as many hits as it used to now that its a subforum.

Look at the numbers; they don't lie.

[micron]

Can I suggest that the people that are vocal about this are the ones that it actually affects?

actually no. if we look as the stats, you are a very very small minority. even though ideally, we'd like to accomodate everyone, we cant accomodate the teeeny minority at the expense of the overwhelming majority.

in washington, you know them as "Sepcial interest groups". heard of them before?

[Tung]

THANK YOU.

You welcome.

I remember when the proposal was brought up, and me and Elba I believed wanted the forums to be just they way they were for the past few years. Who's idea exactly was it to change it anyways couple months ago?