Consequentialism Options

[*Steven*]

Ends justifies the means.

[brooklyneast05]

well i'm def not a deontologist, so i guess i'm a consequentialist


i duno, everything depends on the situation

[Spirited Away]

Note: this is not an original idea- The end does not not justify the means when force is inflicted upon an individual or group to produce certain ends.

Also, something with unknown consequences cannot claim to be justified. Contemporary evil or misguided conduct cannot be justified by a forecast of future good consequences.

[*Steven*]

I'm not claiming it as an original idea. I found a definition of my outlook and this seemed to fit it pretty decently. Should the end be known, however, is there any issue?

What if the detriment of one is an equal benefit shared amongst many? One person loses 5$ 100 people gain 5$. One person is negatively affected by a new policy, but 10 are helped. Minorities are given less preferential treatment, and the majority's paid more attention.

[Spirited Away]

no no. i mean what i said wasn't an original idea; i'm repeating an argument. i will edit this later with a response if one is called for.

I'm not claiming it as an original idea. I found a definition of my outlook and this seemed to fit it pretty decently. Should the end be known, however, is there any issue?

What if the detriment of one is an equal benefit shared amongst many? One person loses 5$ 100 people gain 5$. One person is negatively affected by a new policy, but 10 are helped. Minorities are given less preferential treatment, and the majority's paid more attention.

A person "losing" $5 through what means? Was it stolen or was it a voluntary loss? Also, if a person loses $5, only one other person can gain that exact $5, FYI.

What happens with coercion or force is that it doesn't usually stop with one person or one event. As it is, "policy" rarely affects just one person. By your reasoning, the opinions and rights of minorities should yield to the opinions and rights of the majority. The image your producing out of that logic is of the South embracing slavery and of America ignoring women rights, for example. To continue, a person or entity with the power to utilize any means to get the desired end won't stop with one event. They'll want to do more.

[*Steven*]

Ohhhhhhhh. I see I see. Yeah I don' think there will be too much to argue I just felt like making the topic, simply because I could :)

[Spirited Away]

I edited =) It's a good topic. I like it.

[*Steven*]

Ooer didn't mean for that idea to come out. In regards to minorities, I think it's completely asinine to cater to their every needs and bend over backwards trying to help them and trying to make it look like we care about everyone. The minorities I'm talking about are the ones who complain about how much America sucks, and the ones who come over here illegally to take advantage of our medical system.

The 5$ was just an example I pulled out of my ass haha. Oh well, while we're on the topic of 5$... Say 5$ from this one person could be invested in a product/idea/w.e and would yield 100$ per person of a group of people. The government recognizes this as a significant gain for the 100 people to the not nearly as severe detriment of the individual. The individual doesn't want to but the government forces it. The individual is rich and the 100 people need the money desperately.

Now I know a lot of things are circumstantial, but should the loss to the minority/individual be minor in comparison to the gain of the rest, why not? This is all assuming that the detriment to the individual isn't going to change his lifestyle/way of life.



I don't know what I'm really talking about Just kinda ranting. I think the reason I made this thread is because I'm kinda tired of America trying to save face and be nice to every country/individual/group of people who get offended at the slightest thing.

For instance, Bubba stole a video tape of pr0n from Suzy Q. They get mad and take this to court, disputing a 15$ video tape. This shit you would think they would have the common sense to realize that the fees/time/effort put into it would prove to be a considerably larger opportunity cost than the gain of the video. Granted, the defendant would have to pay the other's lawyer fees, they still waste a substantial amount of time over a video tape. This kind of thing happens all the time and is clogging up the legal system. What if the people in the small claims courts just said "tough shit" and told them to get over it. They would get offended, maybe even their feelings hurt, but it would free up much of the legal system for more important matters (Suzy Q stole a pr0n dvd).

[Spirited Away]

Damn it, that was long. DOn't you know I have to sleep early so I can wake up early for work? Haha.

Ooer didn't mean for that idea to come out. In regards to minorities, I think it's completely asinine to cater to their every needs and bend over backwards trying to help them and trying to make it look like we care about everyone. The minorities I'm talking about are the ones who complain about how much America sucks, and the ones who come over here illegally to take advantage of our medical system.

That's fine that you think like that, but the fact is that our country wouldn't be where it is today on social policy if it never catered to minorities. In fact, I'm sure slavery wouldn't have been abolished at all and a woman would still be bondaged to her man if no one cared for minorities.

The 5$ was just an example I pulled out of my ass haha. Oh well, while we're on the topic of 5$... Say 5$ from this one person could be invested in a product/idea/w.e and would yield 100$ per person of a group of people. The government recognizes this as a significant gain for the 100 people to the not nearly as severe detriment of the individual. The individual doesn't want to but the government forces it. The individual is rich and the 100 people need the money desperately.

If it walks like communism and sounds like communism, it must stink like communism. It reeks of the lack of respect for private property and the freedom to control one's assets.

Continuing rom that logic because the cycle doesn't (cannot) stop, it doesn't matter if it's $5 from you or a million dollars that you don't have, the government will still take from you to satisfy the 100 people. If you don't mind being that one person coughing out the cash, I'd like to be among the 100 people enjoying your money.

Now I know a lot of things are circumstantial, but should the loss to the minority/individual be minor in comparison to the gain of the rest, why not? This is all assuming that the detriment to the individual isn't going to change his lifestyle/way of life.

Are we still on the subject of the end justifying the means? Because the saying doesn't apply to minorities alone. A government can oppress their people and seize and distribute private property for the good of the nation will say the end is justified by the means, but we both know that this government is a bad one.

This discussion is more like "one person should die so that 100 could be saved" or something.

I don't know what I'm really talking about Just kinda ranting. I think the reason I made this thread is because I'm kinda tired of America trying to save face and be nice to every country/individual/group of people who get offended at the slightest thing.

For instance, Bubba stole a video tape of pr0n from Suzy Q. They get mad and take this to court, disputing a 15$ video tape. This shit you would think they would have the common sense to realize that the fees/time/effort put into it would prove to be a considerably larger opportunity cost than the gain of the video. Granted, the defendant would have to pay the other's lawyer fees, they still waste a substantial amount of time over a video tape. This kind of thing happens all the time and is clogging up the legal system. What if the people in the small claims courts just said "tough shit" and told them to get over it. They would get offended, maybe even their feelings hurt, but it would free up much of the legal system for more important matters (Suzy Q stole a pr0n dvd).

Ah, I'm so sleepy right now so i'll answer to bubba tomorrow.

[*Steven*]

Communism in idea isn't bad. It would just, well, never work.

I wouldn't mind being the person out of the money if it didn't change my way of life. If I could still live the way I live and not worry about things, I honestly wouldn't care.I'm not very materialistic and I never have been :)

Regarding the government catering to minorities. I don't believe that we got where we are today by catering to minorities. We got here with a "to hell with everyone else, what about us?" attitude. We did some things back in the day that would be shunned by today's society. Don't take this as me saying Slavery was right, because I have a black friend therefore I'm a presiding expert on the matter . No but seriously, I'm not a supporter :)

I just think it's ridiculous when we have all these minorities immigrating here, taking more from the government than they put back into our economy, and complaining about conditions here. Then they bitch and moan about Christmas, the religion of the majority of America. But It's okay to celebrate Hanukkah, Ramadan, or whatever other Holidays the world celebrates, because that's religiously tolerant.

[*CowerPointyObjects*]

I don't believe that communist is an inherently evil idea. Just too utopian, which inevitable turns into dystopia.

Okay, relevant well thought out post tomorrow Steven, I promise :)

[*Steven*]

It's tomorrow.

[*CowerPointyObjects*]

I wouldn't mind being the person out of the money if it didn't change my way of life. If I could still live the way I live and not worry about things, I honestly wouldn't care.I'm not very materialistic and I never have been :)

Hmm, then I'm curious how you can be such a strong advocate of conservative monetary policy (or is it fiscal? dammit, it hasn't been that long since I took econ). This isn't an attack on your political views, for the record, just curious. Because I'm not sure where the line is to say what would change the way you live versus what wouldn't. A lot of time it seems people object to tax raises on principle alone, when in actuality it effects them very little, while it is able to more significantly help other programs and people.

Regarding the government catering to minorities. I don't believe that we got where we are today by catering to minorities. We got here with a "to hell with everyone else, what about us?" attitude. We did some things back in the day that would be shunned by today's society. Don't take this as me saying Slavery was right, because I have a black friend therefore I'm a presiding expert on the matter . No but seriously, I'm not a supporter :)

Disregarding minority input would essentially mean fascism. Though the framers were actually pretty anti-democracy (at least in its true sense, seeing as that'd be mobocracy), this country was still founded on the theory that other cultures and religions and whatnot should be respected. That obviously was not the case in many historical instances, but we'd likely be better off if we hadn't gone through those things. Could be wrong, seeing as I can't go back and time and test things out, but in general. ...I sort of don't know what I'm talking about anymore, so moving on.

I just think it's ridiculous when we have all these minorities immigrating here, taking more from the government than they put back into our economy, and complaining about conditions here. Then they bitch and moan about Christmas, the religion of the majority of America. But It's okay to celebrate Hanukkah, Ramadan, or whatever other Holidays the world celebrates, because that's religiously tolerant.

Where would we be without all those immigrants working the jobs that "we" don't want to, though? Plus, the illegals would tend to be Christian. Anyone who immigrated legally cannot rightfully be bitched about, because we'd really be nowhere if people hadn't immigrated here. Great thing about America, right? To complain about alternative cultures not fitting into "ours" is just to repeat the some of silliest aspects of American history. Although, the Know-Nothing party was pretty badass. Still, while holiday neutralization is getting awfully ridiculous, I don't think the point is to say no Christmas as to recognize others simultaneously (not that I recommend you celebrate Ramadan in December...not that I'm sure how you'd go about celebrating Ramadan beyond being religious, but whatever. Chanukah's pretty commercialized).


Oh, and for the record I did start this post yesterday

[Spirited Away]

1. Communism in idea isn't bad. It would just, well, never work.

2. I wouldn't mind being the person out of the money if it didn't change my way of life. If I could still live the way I live and not worry about things, I honestly wouldn't care.I'm not very materialistic and I never have been :)

3. Regarding the government catering to minorities. I don't believe that we got where we are today by catering to minorities. We got here with a "to hell with everyone else, what about us?" attitude. We did some things back in the day that would be shunned by today's society. Don't take this as me saying Slavery was right, because I have a black friend therefore I'm a presiding expert on the matter . No but seriously, I'm not a supporter :)

4 . I just think it's ridiculous when we have all these minorities imm igrating here, taking more from the government than they put back into our economy, and complaining about conditions here. Then they bitch and moan about Christmas, the religion of the majority of America. But It's okay to celebrate Hanukkah, Ramadan, or whatever other Holidays the world celebrates, because that's religiously tolerant.

1. I'd like to talk more about this when I have time.

2. that's the thing, the saying "the means justify the end" means any way to achieve an end, whether it'll hurt people or not can be justified if the outcome's good.

Take Hitler for example, he wanted a world that's consisted of the "perfect" Aryan race (the "end") and he employed many means to rid the imperfect Jews... etc.

So, means that are evil deeds or will do irreversibly damage to human beings, are they justified by "good" consequences?

3. "To hell with everyone" that's NOT American, you mean. Our government very much caters to minority groups, of course not on the same level as the majority--because we are a democracy, but American minorities are among the most well cared for in the world.

4. I'm not sure if we're on topic anymore, but I don't see a problem with people complaining. One of the greatest thing I love about America is freedom of speech. In Vietnam, any mention of "freedom of speech" in the presence of local authority will get a person in shit load of trouble. People DO take advantage of the system and that's not fair to the rest of us, but you shouldn't care. After all, you said that if you can still live the way you live then you wouldn't mind.

For the record, I am against illegal immigration because of the problems they pose to our health care system and tax related matters. The biggest problem is that they break our laws by just being here. But this is for another debate, don't you think?

About Christmas, I don't agree with you. People should have the freedom to say whatever they want. Christmas isn't about religion to anyone but Christians (the same is true for other religious holidays belonging to their respective religion). If you celebrate Christmas, that's great, but keep in mind that others may celebrate differently so you shouldn't force your traditions down people's throats.

Also, we can debate about Christmas as much as you want. As you may know, Christmas wasn't a Christian holiday originally. It was a Pagan celebration turned Christian by the Pope in hope to convert pagans. So by historical and traditional standard, this time of the year belongs to everyone so tolerance is nice and appreciated.

-------------
PS the longer I have to write, the less sense I will make. So please bear with me. ANd please forgive the long post.

[*Steven*]

Damn I just got post raped. I'll have to write something long tmw, while I'm at work but for nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww:

I'm not saying totally disregard the minorities. I'm just tired of things aimed specifically at minorities who they assume are incapable of handling themselves, such as affirmative action, but I created another thread for that a while back. If we're all about equality, how come they can make some racial joke about whites and it be hilarious (funny to me too) but should a white person make a joke about someone non-white and their race, then it would be heavy racism and that person would be shunned by society. For instance, "n****r guy."

People taking advantage of the system does affect me. It takes funding from the government that could be better used for other things, and because they're leeching this money my taxes are raised. Also I'm not one to bitch about tax raises if they have a good intention. I know that taxes are a major income for the government and that without it we would be not what we are today (just imo).

la la la christmas, facism, monetary vs fiscal

"To hell with everyone" may not be American today, but it's certainly an attitude we adopted on our way to where we are. It was the expansion and wellbeing of America that mattered. If we thought the Japanese could pose a possible threat, we put them in camps. We slaughtered Indians.

The bitching and moaning about Christmas:
I remember there was this one news story a few years back about some student who was offended because there were crosses in the windows. This was made big around Christmas time and it was labeled as something along the lines of "a government attempt to subliminally spread Christianity." I mean, never mind the fact that's it's for structural integrity reasons. This story was expanded upon and someone wanted all crosses in windows removed from every government building.

The means justify the ends if the ends positive outcome is greater than the loss and opportunity cost.

Kinda spread out, I'll organize it more tomorrow.

[Spirited Away]

1. I'm not saying totally disregard the minorities. I'm just tired of things aimed specifically at minorities who they assume are incapable of handling themselves, such as affirmative action, but I created another thread for that a while back. If we're all about equality, how come they can make some racial joke about whites and it be hilarious (funny to me too) but should a white person make a joke about someone non-white and their race, then it would be heavy racism and that person would be shunned by society. For instance, "n****r guy."

Well, I don't disagree with you about AA. However, we can't use focus on that alone. Recall the bigger picture of American history and you'll see the essentiality to recognize the needs of minorities (eg. religious persecution, women's rights, civil rights movement... etc. But you know, "minority" can mean anything from the wealthy class to race, so let's not put too much emphasis on racial minority.

Anyway, our Founding Fathers never intended for the majority to have absolute power though. They set up a system where there are power checks all over the place so that no one entity is absolute because they understand the human tendency to be corrupt with power. At least, that's their intentions.


2. People taking advantage of the system does affect me. It takes funding from the government that could be better used for other things, and because they're leeching this money my taxes are raised. Also I'm not one to bitch about tax raises if they have a good intention. I know that taxes are a major income for the government and that without it we would be not what we are today (just imo).

Give me an example of how this will affect you. I understand that it annoys you (because it annoys me when people abuse the syste), but I can't quite put my finger on exactly how it affects your making a living or getting what you want in life.

As for taxes, the majority of it goes towards legitimate spending for you and me, if not everyone else in the equation. The ones that truly leech tax money (like illegal immigrants) are breaking a bunch of laws anyway (includng moral laws) and you know that America does draw the line there. The answer to why taxes increase vary from state to state as they all have different needs, however, the vote and needs of the MAJORITY are also one of the reasons why taxes increase. Have you look into that? Also, let's not forget that increase in military spending would affect taxes more so than minority services. There are so many other factors that majorly affect tax increases.

3. "To hell with everyone" may not be American today, but it's certainly an attitude we adopted on our way to where we are. It was the expansion and wellbeing of America that mattered. If we thought the Japanese could pose a possible threat, we put them in camps. We slaughtered Indians.

Right, but remember the intentions of the Founding Fathers. Even the Constitution protects the minority.

4.The bitching and moaning about Christmas:
I remember there was this one news story a few years back about some student who was offended because there were crosses in the windows. This was made big around Christmas time and it was labeled as something along the lines of "a government attempt to subliminally spread Christianity." I mean, never mind the fact that's it's for structural integrity reasons. This story was expanded upon and someone wanted all crosses in windows removed from every government building.

Considering that there are no exams set for Christian holidays, I say you guys have it a lot better than the rest of us.

5. The means justify the ends if the ends positive outcome is greater than the loss and opportunity cost.
When you add to the saying, it proves that you think is originally deffective. "Positive outcome" for whom? The majority? At cost of lives and well being of the minority? So, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is only true for the majority?

[*Steven*]

Long response, too much to respond to at work, so I'll have to get back to it when I get home. I'll add in, now, however, that I'm very much not a Christian so it isn't "my" holiday :)

Also I guess what I'm really getting at is I hate the government and their attempted impositions on our every day life, including cameras to monitor us almost every where we go. While I understand the necessity of a government to intervene and enact laws that are crucial, I think they should stay out of our every day lives, for the most part, and let people fend for themselves. I'm not trying to say (when I say fend for themselves) that everyone should be left to die, but I don't think that all these things to "help" racial minorities which seem more like favoritism are necessary. I always liked the libertarian ideas.

[brooklyneast05]

what steven? u want them to leave me out in the cold to fend for myself? some white friend u are.

[*Steven*]

Well, you're black, and I'm pretty conservative (which the Republicans claim to be), so therefore I hate black people :(

[brooklyneast05]

awww shoot

[Spirited Away]

Yea, the only reason I type all that up at work is because my boss isn't here.. though i do have a lot of work to do... oh wells.

Well, when you compare our government to the rest of the world... ours look pretty darn good.

I'm a minority myself, but I don't agree with favoritism either, but what you've said the previous posts don't add up to this conclusion though so I'm a little lost as to where we are in this discussion

[*Steven*]

:(
I do that :(

I'll be thinking about one particular case and then I'll use that case as my basis for argument, without really revealing the case, but turning it into a generality. Then later on I'll rethink things and my opinion changes slightly and also I take into count what others have said and that changes the way I feel about things. I can be persuaded and change my mind if the opposing case is presented in a calm manner, logically.

[Spirited Away]

Well, that's nice. I'll be looking forward to it. I don't expect anyone to eat my words as is because more than half the time, I use emotional arguments anyway. I will try to persuade you with logic then... it's just that we've deviated so much from the original discussion...

[*Steven*]

It happens, no biggie though :)