kryo Options

[*tripvertigo*]

Maybe he did it because there's no reason not to. We're not obligated to do everything the mods tell us to do. We're ASKED to do what they say in good REASON.

[*SayBloodyMary*]

Which is fine, and a perfectly legitimate attitude. However, it isn't particularly sensible to expect that to be without consequence.

[*tripvertigo*]

Yeah it is sensable.

Was he posting a spoiler?

No.

Is it against the rules to speculate?

No.

So was he breaking a rule?

No.

So do the mods have any right to ask him to stop doing what he's doing?

No.


So should he be warned for doing something clearly within his rights to do, that is not stated in any of the rules, just because people were upset that what he said MIGHT be true about the book?


No.


What is the objective of a thread on any book if not to SPECULATE on what might happen next?

Do you seriously expect everyone to just post the same "YEAH, CANT WAIT TILL IT COMES OUT. IM GONNA BUY IT. I LOVE THE BOOKS." over and over again?

That hardly leads to any intelligent discussion on such a classic series.


And I cant imagine that anyone who WAS upset by his speculations is STILL upset, knowing now that they are clearly not true. Most people would just say

"wow that was a dick move."

and move on.

[*SayBloodyMary*]

*sensible

Again, that's fine. However, he was causing upset, which, while it doesn't violate a specific rule, caused whoever warned him to act for what they perceived to be the greater good. If there is disagreement about that course of action (and I think we've established that there is), that is unfortunate. However, unless someone can propose a solution which means that no judgement will have to be excercised in these situations, these things will happen.

And I can't imagine anyone is upset now. That would be why action was taken then, and not today. However, if someone can say 'what a dick move,' and move on about some things, why not others?

[*kryogenix*]

So now we're punishing people whenever someone is upset over someone else's actions? In that case, can I warn brownsugar and superstitious because clearly a number of people are upset by this? How many people need to be upset before they can be warned?

What I've been saying all along is judgment is fine, but there has to be responsibility when you f**k up. The fact that you guys think that not even an apology should be made smacks of arrogance.

[*kryogenix*]

And I can back up my claims with reasonable arguments. You guys merely close my threads and try to avoid discussing the issue. So far, I've been right about mostly everything and you guys have been wrong and apologized and admitted (albeit begrudgingly) to your mistakes.

[*kryogenix*]

Your opinion is that you were right.
How does that make it law?

lol relativist argument. It's not my opinion that I was right. I was right beyond a reasonable doubt. I was warned because you claimed I posted spoilers. However, I did not post spoilers.

Then you attempt to recover by saying it caused a ruckus, and I counter by saying besides the complete subjectivity of this unwritten rule, the mods did a similar thing that went unpunished, as do many posters on a daily basis in the lounge. When I ask for criteria, you pull out the "well that's your opinion card." Pretty weak.

And how are we avoiding discussion?!

You haven't answered my question yet have you?

[*kryogenix*]

Go read the topic over, lazy. Keep reading it until you can't feign ignorance anymore.

You're here to answer my questions. I am the prosecutor, when it's your time to cross examine, you can ask questions then.

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

Your opinion is that you were right.
How does that make it law?

in the same regards, how does someone being offended by spoilers make it a law, warranting warnings?

oh right, because one of the people offended was a mod.

[*superstitious*]

Ok, as I've mentioned in the absent threads (both in The Lounge and in the Backstage thread), I'm right smack dab in the middle of moving so I don't have a lot of time. I would like to try my best to touch a little upon this though.

Before you (any of you) are quick to come to conclusions, I have NOT read this entire thread yet, due to time limitations.

honestly, i think it's a personal vendetta. rebecca was getting upset because she is actually a harry potter fan, and on top of that, a staff member. therefore, she was able to make up a rule to not have the book ruined for her.

Actually, the book (seemingly, at that point) was already ruined for me. In fact, when cB was upgraded (Friday?) the spoiler tags were not working. There was someone (Rachel, I think) that was upset that she came across spoilers. I made it a point to cover them. Obviously I had read them to do so. There's no personal vendetta here. No offense, but outside this site I don't give Kryo a single thought. I have much more important things to worry about than a member of an online forum, especially to the point of having any type of vendetta against them.

And I can back up my claims with reasonable arguments. You guys merely close my threads and try to avoid discussing the issue. So far, I've been right about mostly everything and you guys have been wrong and apologized and admitted (albeit begrudgingly) to your mistakes.

When have I ever tried avoiding discussing anything with you? Every time you PM me, I PM you back as soon as I possibly can.

And you haven't been right about everything nor do I apologize for the verbal warning I gave you. Forget about the spoiler thing for a second. How many times have you bashed people here? Seriously? How about that signature of yours? Yes, I told you that I wasn't offended by it, but that still doesn't mean that it isn't bashing.

The thing is, you have demonstrated a serious disregard for many, not just staff. You've even said that you have a distaste for the community.

Like I said above, I don't think about you outside this site. I don't think about you when I'm ON this site. I address things as they come up. You have had plenty of opportunities to have the stage. I think that this thread is a really sad, but not for reasons you may come up with. I think this is really a big act of narcissism on your part, to disrupt the community because you feel like you are the center of the staff's universe, for better or for worse. That came out more blunt than I would have preferred, but I thought I would be frank with you and also because I'm way tired right now. I was trying to convey the idea (in probably a not-so-good way) that you are not at all singled out, despite what you may think. =X

I think we do a pretty damn good job in general. Add to that, I think you are pretty good guy, I have no beef with you, I don't even know you. I react to situations as they come up and I will not now, nor will I ever apologize for the judgments I have made or the warnings I have given unless they are truly wrong and I do not feel that they have been wrong in your case(s). When I feel that I have done something wrong, I will let you or any injured party know. I am not unapproachable. People have PMd me before when they have disagreed with me and I listen. When I ask people to PM me to clarify why they think something needs to be reopened, I listen and more often than not, a simple communication like that will end up in a reopened thread.

One thing that you are neglecting to bring up here, is the time that Ju-Sun himself had asked you something simple. Remember this thread?
http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=180096

this topic is misleading.

kryo, if you were acting on good faith and truly wished to discuss the autobiography by dick gregory, you would have stated so in your original post to avoid people from misunderstanding your intent (especially so because N is such a sensitive word). im going to take your lack of clarification as a motive to intentionally mislead, so im going to close this topic.

if you wish to touch upon anything controversial next time, i suggest that you clarify and make sure no one misunderstands your intent.

Do you remember what you did in response? I do. You made this thread.

Dangit, I wish I had more time because I'm jumping all over the place. I apologize for that. The point I was trying to make with the above examples is that you get angry for people warning you without giving you a chance. We have.

The spoiler thing happened after that. See, the spoiler rule was in the works before you did your thing. Foilers, sure. But at the time they were considered spoilers. Why? There is a speculation thread in the Books Forum. Why, if your intent was truly to speculate, did you not post that there? And why did you post them as fact? Why when you were asked not to did you continue? Did you PM me, Suzzette or whoever was on at the time to say ANYTHING? How about... "hey, I'm just messing around." It's about courtesy. You want us to be courteous, to listen, right? What? We don't deserve the same in return? Instead you just kept right on doing it. We had every right to do what we did. In fact, right before I asked you to stop I looked around at another Forum I frequent. Not only are spoilers/foilers forbidden without spoilers tags, but people are immediately punished when doing so. No verbal warning, no please stops.

So this idea, that because what you had posted didn't come to be what actually happened in the books meant that you didn't post spoilers and that staff made a mistake warning for such, doesn't have merit. It is a part of a snippet of time in which you were posting spoilers. It also jived with a lot of what was circulating around the net. I researched that intentionally at the time, even though I like Harry Potter and didn't want to read spoilers. I did so because I didn't want people being disappointed here.

What I think is a little on the irony side is that I did so to help people and didn't do so for myself at all. Obviously I had read what seemed plausible at the time.

I understand that you may disagree with is. May? I jest, I know you will disagree with this. Regardless, I stand by my decisions and I feel good about my decisions.

That's pretty much all I have to say about it. I've got other things to do here at cB than to rehash what we will never see eye to eye on. I'm sorry, but that is the reality.

I really do wish you the best and although I don't apologize to you for my actions because I stand by them, I do apologize that you are so upset by them. That has never been my intention nor will it ever be. I would like for you to feel comfortable here, hell, maybe even like it here again.

Chances are I will not come by this thread for a long while, since I have already spent too much time on the computer as it is. As I mentioned in a different thread, if there is something that you really would like to point out to me, please feel free to link the quote to me in a PM so that I may hop right to it.

In a couple of weeks or so (should just be a couple) I will be back full swing.

PS, sorry if there's a lot of typos or if some sentences are too run-on or at times incoherent even.

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

It wasn't one person. It was many, many people. And there was already a rule about controversy before the spoiler fest. The spoiler rule was a clarification.

but like he said, a lot of people don't like the stuff you do...we just don't have the power to do anything because you overthrow us.

[*SayBloodyMary*]

So now we're punishing people whenever someone is upset over someone else's actions? In that case, can I warn brownsugar and superstitious because clearly a number of people are upset by this? How many people need to be upset before they can be warned?

What I've been saying all along is judgment is fine, but there has to be responsibility when you f**k up. The fact that you guys think that not even an apology should be made smacks of arrogance.

What I said was that there is no point in forcing an apology, because it is meaningless unless the person means it (except more eloquently than that when my brain works properly).

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

just because you guys act like this is the government, it's far different.

[*davinci*]

but like he said, a lot of people don't like the stuff you do...we just don't have the power to do anything because you overthrow us.

Who are these "people"? And why hasn't anyone but Kryo James spoken up if their issues are genuine?

[*SayBloodyMary*]

Anyway. AGAIN, what do you think we are going to accomplish by rehashing the argument about the spoiler debacle? That someone will eventually cave? IT. IS. DONE. WITH.

Clearly, we all think we're right. That is shocking, appaling, and so on and so forth. However, as we can't change it, and nothing new is being brought to the table regarding this specific incident, meaning that we aren't getting anything from it anymore, why don't we all just shake hands and say 'I don't like you, but I'm over it?'

Will it help if I say please?

[*kryogenix*]

thanks for the response, superstitious, I'll address the relevant points now and the other stuff when you're back.

Keep in mind, let's try keeping any responses relevant to the spoiler issue.

Actually, the book (seemingly, at that point) was already ruined for me. In fact, when cB was upgraded (Friday?) the spoiler tags were not working. There was someone (Rachel, I think) that was upset that she came across spoilers. I made it a point to cover them. Obviously I had read them to do so. There's no personal vendetta here. No offense, but outside this site I don't give Kryo a single thought. I have much more important things to worry about than a member of an online forum, especially to the point of having any type of vendetta against them.

Except I didn't post any spoilers. And the no vendetta thing is funny when you look at my warn history. The only other person other than you and brownsugar that have warned me was HakunaMatata and she even reduced my warning level afterwards and apologized for her mistake.


If it is true that only a handful of the staff has a problem with me and the rest really don't (evidence being the lack of activity against me by them), then I suppose I should listen to SayBloodyMary and apologize for addressing my complaints to the mods collectively. However, if all of you guys really do have a problem (understandable since a good number of members have told me they have a problem with the staff but choose not to publicly complain for fear of persecution, so it probably goes both ways), then the status quo remains.

Actually, I don't believe you have a ongoing vendetta against me. However, I do think that your personal interest did play a part in the punishment. However, I'm not as interested in intent (something I've been saying for quite a while now, yet people just don't seem to understand this) as I am interested in the validity of the punishment. You can attempt to justify and make excuses for a mistake, but at the end of the day it is still a mistake and you guys should own up to it.

The rest will be addressed later since I don't want to bring this thread off topic.

What I said was that there is no point in forcing an apology, because it is meaningless unless the person means it (except more eloquently than that when my brain works properly).

So do the people involved still believe that they were not mistaken? And it's a pain in the ass to lose official member status, so while you have nothing to lose by not apologizing, my posting ability is gimped.

Who are these "people"? And why hasn't anyone but Kryo James spoken up if their issues are genuine?

See above where I mention being afraid to complain publicly.

Anyway. AGAIN, what do you think we are going to accomplish by rehashing the argument about the spoiler debacle? That someone will eventually cave? IT. IS. DONE. WITH.

Clearly, we all think we're right. That is shocking, appaling, and so on and so forth. However, as we can't change it, and nothing new is being brought to the table regarding this specific incident, meaning that we aren't getting anything from it anymore, why don't we all just shake hands and say 'I don't like you, but I'm over it?'

Will it help if I say please?

It won't end until the mods are either held responsible for their mistakes, or prove that I did post spoilers. The former sounds like the most plausible ending.

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

Okay...Trust me, we do take suggestions seriously. We are constantly trying to improve. The community sends mixed signals.

moderator performance is a great example.

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

we've talked about this before. shall i recall the convo?

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

we've talked about this before. shall i recall the convo?

[*davinci*]

See above where I mention being afraid to complain publicly.

But Spencer mentioned Suzzette's name. Were you referring to just her or the staff as a whole? Suzzette has always been a vocal advocate of reading criticism and taking it seriously without responding as to not be accused of jumping down their throats. As for the staff, well, some like to respond. I suppose it all depends on the genuity of the criticism.

The ONLY people I've heard actual criticism from of late is Kryo and tripvertigo.

[*tripvertigo*]

*sensible

Again, that's fine. However, he was causing upset, which, while it doesn't violate a specific rule, caused whoever warned him to act for what they perceived to be the greater good. If there is disagreement about that course of action (and I think we've established that there is), that is unfortunate. However, unless someone can propose a solution which means that no judgement will have to be excercised in these situations, these things will happen.

And I can't imagine anyone is upset now. That would be why action was taken then, and not today. However, if someone can say 'what a dick move,' and move on about some things, why not others?

i believe i have suggested a solution to this in the past. moderators shouldnt have the burden of having to exercise their "better judgement" in contreversial incidents like this when clearly their judgement may not always be right.

In situations like these, they should HAVE to consult with an administrator or headstaff so that the accountability is on higher-managements shoulders.

This makes the enforcement of REAL rules more consistant.


What I get from this topic is that when members do something wrong, or I should say when A member does something wrong (because apparently not every situation is handled in the same objective manner that it should be), they are punished to the extent of someones better judgement, which may (at most times) be total bullshit.

However, when a mod or group of mods does something wrong, nothing is done. And to avoid the situation, they close the topics that might implicate them.


And if you are going to say that he was warned for upsetting a large group of people or causing a ruckus, then I have to refer to a particular incident involving myself and certain untrue rumors that went on for weeks with absolutely no action from the moderating staff. Now more than half of this community thinks im totally schizophrenic, and in terms of what would actually happen in real life? I could sue jusun for something like deformation of character not because he LED this crusade against me, but because his staff chose not to do anything. But I guess there must be some vague selection process that the mods use to either ignore a situation and let it go for amusement purposes or to act way too brashly just because they may not like a certain person (lets say, james).


And PS:

I let your ironic mispelling of the word "illiterate" go. Have the courtesy to let mine.

[*shotgunFUNERAL*]

nah, i'll let it go since you don't want it here.

[*kryogenix*]

But Spencer mentioned Suzzette's name. Were you referring to just her or the staff as a whole? Suzzette has always been a vocal advocate of reading criticism and taking it seriously without responding as to not be accused of jumping down their throats. As for the staff, well, some like to respond. I suppose it all depends on the genuity of the criticism.

The ONLY people I've heard actual criticism from of late is Kryo and tripvertigo.

Wow. Just wow. I don't know how many times I've been told to stop criticizing them, even to the point of being threatened with warnings. She's even resorted to lying to avoid taking responsibility for things.

And you clearly didn't read what I wrote above. I said a lot of people do have problems but don't want to complain publicly because they're afraid of the repercussions.

To keep things on topic, can someone please state the official reason why I was punished and why there has yet to be an apology?

[*SayBloodyMary*]

i believe i have suggested a solution to this in the past. moderators shouldnt have the burden of having to exercise their "better judgement" in contreversial incidents like this when clearly their judgement may not always be right.

In situations like these, they should HAVE to consult with an administrator or headstaff so that the accountability is on higher-managements shoulders.

This makes the enforcement of REAL rules more consistant.
What I get from this topic is that when members do something wrong, or I should say when A member does something wrong (because apparently not every situation is handled in the same objective manner that it should be), they are punished to the extent of someones better judgement, which may (at most times) be total bullshit.

However, when a mod or group of mods does something wrong, nothing is done. And to avoid the situation, they close the topics that might implicate them.
And if you are going to say that he was warned for upsetting a large group of people or causing a ruckus, then I have to refer to a particular incident involving myself and certain untrue rumors that went on for weeks with absolutely no action from the moderating staff. Now more than half of this community thinks im totally schizophrenic, and in terms of what would actually happen in real life? I could sue jusun for something like deformation of character not because he LED this crusade against me, but because his staff chose not to do anything. But I guess there must be some vague selection process that the mods use to either ignore a situation and let it go for amusement purposes or to act way too brashly just because they may not like a certain person (lets say, james).
And PS:

I let your ironic mispelling of the word "illiterate" go. Have the courtesy to let mine.

That doesn't reduce the amount of judgement used, it just means that a different person is using their judgement instead. Plus, if mods did have to report to admins before acting, I would give it an hour before we started hearing 'tattletales,' or 'Hitler Youth' started coming out. It's swapping one set of disatisfaction for another.

And while I appreciate the idea that 'real' rules ought to be more consistant, what has to be kept in mind is that most of the violations here aren't based on tangible, steadfast foundations. I mean, spamming to someone is harmless to another, and the same with bashing, or with controversy. I think it is better that people act, and then mistakes get made from time to time, and then dealt with, rather than every little thing be queued up for a big discussion beforehand, so that by the time action is taken, it is in the past and no one cares anyway, but will still complain if it doesn't go that way. A mod 'getting' something wrong doesn't necessarily equate to a mod 'doing' something wrong, if you understand what I mean.

Oh, and I don't mind if you correct me, so go for it. Although I should point out that, as a rule, my typing sucks, not my spelling. How tiresome that it should happen to be 'illiterate,' though. Truly, the Irony Fairy frolics... Oh, and you would presumably be suing Jusun for defamation of character.

--

James, the fact that only Rebs and Suzzette have warned you (well, and Kaycee, but like you said, that was resolved) doesn't prove that they have a vendetta against you, that is really something of an extrapolation. In fact, given that you take into account the fear that some members supposedly have of persecution for criticising staff, I think you should perhaps consider the other side of the coin, before resorting to bias as a logical explanation. Personally, I think that either set of fears are ill-founded and childish, but there you go.

Oh, and having just reread your post, I realize you were saying that you didn't personally believe in a vendetta, but still, it will serve as a response to something along the line, I'm sure, so my bad for not reading.

And actually, I'd forgotten that you're warn level actually affected you're Member title, so technically, you're right about having ore to lose (or, I suppose, gain depending on whatever it is we're looking at exactly). Although, given that they haven't said so, and indeed in Rebecca's case have specifically said otherwise, I would imagine that they do not intend to change their minds. The official reason for no apology (such as it is) being that they aren't sorry. But this really is a battle of interpretation (and YES, I know that yours is the only valid one from your vantage point [or, as I'm sure you'll say, from any, but that REALLY is a losing battle for all parties]), and I'm not sure that it can be one, so please, as a personal appeal for the sake of my sanity, would you consider letting it go?

[*kryogenix*]

Alright, I'll call for another clarification:

Where is the problem that is preventing them from admitting they were wrong? Do they still believe I posted spoilers even though it's been shown that I didn't post them?

No, I won't consider letting it go because I feel I'm right, nor do I have anything to lose. This aversion to justifying the actions of the accused only serves to fuel my suspicions as correct. The only ways to end this is:

1) Prove that I didn't post spoilers
2) Change the explanation for the warning to "being misleading" and then proceed to punish those who have been misleading
3) Admit that they were wrong

We know #1 can't happen. #2 is sorta happening now except they don't seem to want to explain the shaky criteria for this and aren't explaining the double standard. #3 is what I'm asking for but you say won't happen.

Or is there a 4: Mods know they are wrong but will refuse to admit it because they are too arrogant to admit they are wrong?