god, part 2 Options

[abberdabber]

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You mean God will right the wrongs done to Christians. He will still forsake GOOD non-believers because of who they are and who they chose to be.

Mark 10:18
"... 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good- except for God alone'..."

No matter how good you think you are being.. once again, everyone sins. Things that will tempt us into sin will come. God's children are the ones that suffered a life of persecution for their beliefs.. the people that gave their lives up to serve His name.

Luke 9:24
".. 'If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it'.."

And no, it doesnt mean die.. as in keel over dead. I'm sure you realize He is speaking of giving up all things in our life that mean anything to us so that we can serve the Lord.

I see, so children, no matter how virtuous or corrupted will still be considered as innocents? While good adults, still 'children' in God's eyes (His children), will suffer the full blown punishments. In that, I see that God discriminates people in different age groups.

No, all sins are equal in the aspect of forgiveness. They arent however considered equally as evil. In the Bible, as they speak of different sins, it is obvious that God is outraged more by some than by others, as in the scripture I gave you yesterday, about the six things the Lord hates, but the seven he finds detestable. He doesnt see all equally.

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1


God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I still don't understand. He gave us free will to love Him? Can you not hear the hypocrisy in it? If He expects us to love him in the first place, then why give us free will? You have free will to love or not to love Him, but if you choose the latter, you will suffer for eternity. Those are not very good choices to choose from: I would have to force myself to love Him or else I would be condemed.

Once again, No, you will not be condemned for 'not obeying' but for venturing off, and taking your life into your own hands, thinking that you are more capable than our creator.

There are different levels of sins,  however, God will make all sins tantamount to each other. I do not think that's fair. Even in the court system, there are different levels of punishment for different crimes, depending on how severe. We mortals perceive the different levels of punishments, and yet God will see all sins as sins.

How did you come to that conclusion? As I explained above, When it comes to sinning, God sees the sin for what it is. He doesnt however, extend the activities or whatever you want to call it, that we have to do to repent.

The slaughtering of 'heathens' were justified by Christians' belief in God's forgiveness. They killed in His name. I suppose that's due to 'evils', but you see, they were Christians, much like yourself.

First of all, dont generalize. I, in no way, am like any of those people. Just because I am a follower of Christ, and they claimed to be followers of Christ, doesnt mean that we are alike in our beliefs.

It's so easy for people to kill someone and then be forgiven by God. Remember the Crusades? The slaughtering of 'heathens' were justified by Christians' belief in God's forgiveness. They killed in His name. I suppose that's due to 'evils', but you see, they were Christians, much like yourself. Of course, God will forgive you because you believe in Him. I understand.

God can see what's in your heart. He knows the circumstances in which you committed the sin. If you are thinking, as you kill someone, "hmm, this is alright because as soon as I get done with this, I can ask for forgivness.. " He's not going to let it slide like that. And secondly, Just because you've been forgiven, doesnt mean that you dont have to bare the consequences of your actions. If a woman has premarital sex, gets pregnant, then repents.. and God forgives her, it doesnt mean that she still isnt going to carry that consequence with her for the rest of her life. God forgiving you isnt a "get out of jail free pass" its a "Get into Heaven by the blood of Christ pass" there's a difference.

That's true, I was taught to be good. However, being bad can bring satisfaction just as well. I can be good to my family and friends and then cheat strangers, and I will still have the love that I need and gain profits at the same time. But even I know that doing so will destroy my conscience. I don't think of God when I do things to benefit other people, I to have a peaceful life. It's a selfish thing to do, and probably is a sin, but this sin will benefit other people.

Luke 6:46-49

"...'Why do you call me, 'LORD LORD?,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hars my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on a rock. When a flood came, the torrent sturck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into ppreactice is like a man who built a house on the gournd without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.' .."

Without God, no matter how hard you try to live a 'good', (which as I quoted a few minutes ago, is impossible because only God is good) life, you wont be prepared for disaster, and when it does come, things will come crashing down around you.

People need proof today, more than ever. The evils of the world is escalating day by day... we need miracles now and not until it's too late.

Mark 8:12

".. 'Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it.' .."

Matthew 16:2-4

"...'When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.'.. "

I don't feel as if I'm sitting in a mud puddle, but rather I feel free because I am doing things that will bring me peace of mind.

It just makes me sad because you dont think you're being used by satan, and I dont mean to "destroy God's plans" but .. just in the little things, I'm sure if you evaluate your actions, you would find some similarities in the things that God despises, and the things you find yourself doing from time to time, we all would. Because as you said before, you can get just as much pleasure out of cheating people for self-gain. This is a very corrupt generation and we are tricked into believing that we are doing 'good'. As long as society recognizes us as 'good' people, then we're alright. We are called to do great and wonderous things in the name of God. You'll know you're doing something right when society is against you. Being accepted into this world as 'normal' is the last of my concerns.

[IIO__oII]

YAY fresh and new!
no more scrolling thru 50+ pages....
;]

[abberdabber]

yea i know, its a whole lot better than before!
It's kinda ridiculous to scroll through more than 20 pages
lol

[princess2113]

wait to answer that other persons ??....Creation does not automatically exclude evolution...we know that God created it, but His ways we are not positive. He says it was created in seven days. However, the 24 hour day may not have been the same to God...out 1 year could equal a day to God, or 24 hours could equal a day to God...He could have created the earth through evolution, i just know He created it....

Jesus is God's Son...God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the Three in One..the Trinity (hard concept).....

TV? the TV doesnt look like God....some of it mite be true, but not all of it...

[Spirited Away]

alrite u want us to give u OUR knowledge, but we first must learn...we learn from the Bible...we believe it and it is a part of us. its part of our heart

I'm not interested in second hand knowledge.

yes, only God should judge, other's judgements don't matter anyway

That's your own personal opinion and does not apply to me. I only care about being able to forgive myself for doing bad things.

...crying to God? we place everything in His hands...He tells us not to worry in anything, but to bring everything to Him in prayer...

... that doesn't answer my statement at all.

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hum Jesus was a Jew...God didnt close His eyes on them...He sent His only Son to die for them(wow im sure thats closing His eyes....i mean He sent His Son to [u][i][b]DIE[/b][/i][/u]...just so we can screw up all the time and still be with
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Please re-read, I specially talked about the Jews of the Holocaust. God did closed His eyes to them.

Him...yeah sure seems like He was turning away from them...uh no!

Then why did He not spare the millions lives that suffered? Women, children burnt to ashes... I suppose that's their punishment for not believing in Him.

less human..no...Jesus was a Jew as i said before b/c Christian means follower of Christ and b/c God had not yet sent Jesus there were no Christians. Jesus was part of God, as He still is...the people had been promised a Savior....they just didnt know the Savior would come as form of a human and be crucified...

I don't think we're understanding each other. I'm not talking about that.. I'm talking a whole different timeline and the more recent evils. Not WAY back when things don't really matter.

CONTRADICTION NUMBER 2!! less human, no! wrong? yes!

Being 'wrong' is also an opinion. A very baised one.

[Spirited Away]

First of all, sorry for double posting.

[quote]
Mark 10:18
"... 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good- except for God alone'..." [/quote]

That's another opinion, but one I could agree with, to a certain level.

[quote]No matter how good you think you are being.. once again, everyone sins. Things that will tempt us into sin will come. God's children are the ones that suffered a life of persecution for their beliefs.. the people that gave their lives up to serve His name. [/quote]

Well, I never once said that I'm completely virtuous have I? I remember writing that I tend to go off course sometimes too, because it's human nature to do so.

How have you suffered persecution for your beliefs? You persecute EACH OTHER and persecute people of other faiths. You divide amongst yourself to different denominations, each claiming to be the 'right' one.

Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, WE ARE the ones who are labled as HEATHENS and BARBARIANS. We're "LOST" "REBELS" in your eyes. We sit near a puddle of mud while you are swimming in the ocean. WE're the ones who are being persecuted for our free will. You all just get off easy being forgiven and all and getting to go to Heaven while we have to be BURNED for eternity in HELL.

Remember the Salem Wictch trials? Women were burned because a few 'good' Christians believe that they were working for the Devil... ooooh.

I don't see how YOU could come to the conclusion that Christians suffer more. That makes me wanna laugh.

[quote]
No, all sins are equal in the aspect of forgiveness. They arent however considered equally as evil. In the Bible, as they speak of different sins, it is obvious that God is outraged more by some than by others, as in the scripture I gave you yesterday, about the six things the Lord hates, but the seven he finds detestable. He doesnt see all equally. [/quote]

Uh, what I meant is that no matter what the sin is, and no matter how much God destest one over the other, a sin is STILL a sin. God will not forgive sinners who are non-Christian, and that's discrimination. Of course God might not see it that way because His rules are the 'ultimate' ones.

[quote]18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [/quote]

If He has made it "plain" then there would be no such thing as a non-believer. It is because God had made things TOO complicated and too DOUBTFUL that people like me exists.

[quote]
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. [/quote]
False. If everything has been clearly seen and clearly understood, then we would not be having this debate about His existence. Because things are UNCLEAR and nothing of such miracles has been truly seen that there are non-believers.

[quote]21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [/quote]

False, there are those who are raised without ever knowing God. Children in poorer countries who lived only knowing how to find food and water, children who grew into men and only know of their own gods DO NOT know of YOUR God at all.

People like me know about God, but we do not 'know' Him. Do not assume that we do because we've never met Him, we've never felt Him...etc.

[quote] 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. [/quote]

Fools we may be, we are only mortals after all. To say that Christians are not foolish is to say that Christians are smarter than non-believers, and that's PRIDE. Isn't that a SIN? It's kind of 'foolish' to say that with so much pride.

[quote]24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. [/quote]

"The truth of God" is an opinion. There is no truth in religion. Your truth might not correspond with a Jew or Muslim's truth. It's only that I am neither Jew nor Muslim that I cannot argue with you... I think I will do a poor job in their behalf, so I can only defend them as best I could.


[quote] 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. [/quote]

I should be offended by these claims, but I'm not, I'm only quite amused.

[Sarcasm]Here me my Non-believer friends! Since we're all going to Hell anyway, lets live life to the fullest, and BE wicked, evil, greedy and envious! Let us murder and commit malice to those near us. Lets gossip and slander Christians for they are flying to Heaven while we burn in Hell.

Let us be insolent, senseless, faithless for we are condemed for doing them anyway even if we do not.

For you see, even if we do not, God will turn a blind eye to our good deeds.

When we do good, He will not see. When we do bad He will count it against us. [Sarcasm]

[quote]Once again, No, you will not be condemned for 'not obeying' but for venturing off, and taking your life into your own hands, thinking that you are more capable than our creator. [/quote]

Disobeying and venturing off are the SAME thing. I disobey when I venture off and when I venture off, I disobey. Where do you see a difference?

I've been more capable of taking care of myself and my family since I was 10.

[quote]First of all, dont generalize. I, in no way, am like any of those people. Just because I am a follower of Christ, and they claimed to be followers of Christ, doesnt mean that we are alike in our beliefs. [/quote]

Okay, this is where things gets heated. So you're saying that you're a better Christian? I doubt that. People in the past were very devoted to the faith, so much, that they were wiling to die for it. Just because YOU serve God in a different way than them DOES NOT mean that they were not true followers of Christ. You're too prideful for your own good.

The knights of the Crusades fought against what they Church claims were 'heathens'. THE CHURCH declared that heathens must be killed! They were only following orders!!! How could you say that they are nothing like you? They would do anything for God. Man that is soooo wrong of you to say that.

I REFUSE TO CONTINUE this with you. It's obvious that you think that YOU ARE the ONLY true follower of God and everyone else who has done differently was wrong... that's just wrong... And they are people of your own faith...

Anyway, I'm not even going to bother answering the rest because I've been to greatly offended by you for people who have lost their lives in the name of God.

[princess2113]

second-hand knowledge????

u trust ur history book...they got it frum other resources...u trust ur math teacher...she learned in a course...everything u know, u learn from someone or something else, unless it is instinct....we arent just born and BAM we know all abt God...there is still sooooooooo much i dunno....soooooo much i wont know until i go to Heaven...and sooooooooooo much i want to learn....i wasnt just born with it all there

God doesnt close His eyes on anyone

[Spirited Away]

u trust ur history book...they got it frum other resources...u trust ur math teacher...she learned in a course...everything u know, u learn from someone or something else, unless it is instinct....we arent just born and BAM we know all abt God...there is still sooooooooo much i dunno....soooooo much i wont know until i go to Heaven...and sooooooooooo much i want to learn....i wasnt just born with it all there

God doesnt close His eyes on anyone

WRONG.

I learn from several sources missy. Ever since I learned about the Vietnam war from the Vietnamese perspective instead of out of a book, I've learn that one source is not always so realiable.

There are several sources to learn from, while you only have one book and then the words of those who read the same book.

God will close His eyes when non-believers choose to be non-believers to the very end. How else can you explain people going to Hell? God has obviously forsaken them.

[abberdabber]

Fae, are you sure thats the reason you continue to go on with this? Of all of the comments ive laid out on the table, you have been offended by this one? first of because you are assuming things. second, are you sure it's not because its getting harder to defend what you know as right? as you said, i am also not going to answer, not because you've offended me in anyway. .. although you've made some rash statements in the last few nights. I respect your view and how you defend it. I hope everything is alright with you.

sincerely yours.

abbe

[Spirited Away]

Fae, are you sure thats the reason you continue to go on with this? Of all of the comments ive laid out on the table, you have been offended by this one? first of because you are assuming things. second, are you sure it's not because its getting harder to defend what you know as right? as you said, i am also not going to answer, not because you've offended me in anyway. .. although you've made some rash statements in the last few nights. I respect your view and how you defend it. I hope everything is alright with you.

sincerely yours.

abbe

HAH!

So now I've been accused of lying, by a self-righteous Christian none the less. It must be true! I'm lying! *Gasp*, I'm so sinful it's scary. But I guess you can get away with your pride because even though you're Christian, God will be nice to you.

Trust me when I say that I'm confident about what I'm talking about. Take notice that I've never once say that there is no God. I've only question His existence, and there is a GREAT difference. AND I've liken your God and the gods from other religion to my Creator. It is you and some others who have said that other gods do not exist.

I do not know who is more at fault: me respecting your God and wanting to understand what it is that make you all so devoted, or you and others saying that other gods do not exist.

It is you who are assume too much about your God and closing your mind to others. I don't blame you though, it is as it should be; that's how religions are.

It's never too hard to defend what I say because I never say things for certain. "The road to certainty is the road to insanity", so I do not strive to 'know' things for certain.

Like Socrates have taught, it is better to say 'I don't know' than to say 'I know all'.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

You guys are so nit-picky and technical. The important thing is that God is up there, and he loves you. As long as you follow those lovely commandments and have faith you have nothing to worry about. God wouldn't make it impossible for us to join Him in His Kingdom. He want's us there, and He'd never try to stop us from getting there. So, why can't we all be friends and rejoyce in Him. Ay?

Just because you can't see Him doesn't mean He isn't there.

[Spirited Away]

You guys are so nit-picky and technical. The important thing is that God is up there, and he loves you. As long as you follow those lovely commandments and have faith you have nothing to worry about. God wouldn't make it impossible for us to join Him in His Kingdom. He want's us there, and He'd never try to stop us from getting there. So, why can't we all be friends and rejoyce in Him. Ay?

Just because you can't see Him doesn't mean He isn't there.

Why believe in something I cannot see, when I can believe in something I can see? (Not to say that I believe in anything only visible to the eyes. That was only to contrast what you say.)

I suppose the nit-picky people you're reffering to are the non-believers? I suppse we are, but I can easily accuse Christians of being the same way.

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

I can be friends with anyone so long as they're nice.

[princess2113]

WRONG.

I learn from several sources missy. Ever since I learned about the Vietnam war from the Vietnamese perspective instead of out of a book, I've learn that one source is not always so realiable.

There are several sources to learn from, while you only have one book and then the words of those who read the same book.

God will close His eyes when non-believers choose to be non-believers to the very end. How else can you explain people going to Hell? God has obviously forsaken them.

"WRONG" is an opionion...u have no scientfically proof, only ur faith

ur "sources" hve learned from others...my Source comes from the top=)
i dont ONLY learn frum the Bible..also pastors, friends, experiences, prayer, camps, etc.

He doesnt turn His back...c u dunno Him so stop telling me(who DOES know Him what He does and doesnt do....u have no clue) He cant be with evil. by not believing in Him, u allow the devil to be a major part of ur life, and dont want the devil out...back to my orginl point...Heaven IS NOT for those who wish to be there to escape hell...it is a gift...a gift to those who love Jeus Christ as their Lord and Savior...now its not my place to judge if u do or not, but from what u say...u dont at this point....so why would u wanna live forever with Jesus...i mean if u dunt love Him..u sure like the devils ways...wuldnt u rather spend eternity with the devil...i men since u just love the devil....i wanna be with Jesus forever b/c i love Him...He died for me and i know it...i dunt wanna be there so i dunt have to go to hell...i mean its a great plus but not my reason

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

LOL i have like 3 Christian friends

[Spirited Away]

"WRONG" is an opionion...u have no scientfically proof, only ur faith


He doesnt turn His back...c u dunno Him so stop telling me(who DOES know Him what He does and doesnt do....u have no clue) He cant be with evil. by not believing in Him, u allow the devil to be a major part of ur life, and dont want the devil out...back to my orginl point...Heaven IS NOT for those who wish to be there to escape hell...it is a gift...a gift to those who love Jeus Christ as their Lord and Savior...now its not my place to judge if u do or not, but from what u say...u dont at this point....so why would u wanna live forever with Jesus...i mean if u dunt love Him..u sure like the devils ways...wuldnt u rather spend eternity with the devil...i men since u just love the devil....i wanna be with Jesus forever b/c i love Him...He died for me and i know it...i dunt wanna be there so i dunt have to go to hell...i mean its a great plus but not my reason

Um, I don't have a faith, you dummy.

ur "sources" hve learned from others...my Source comes from the top=)
i dont ONLY learn frum the Bible..also pastors, friends, experiences, prayer, camps, etc.

Okay, your friends and pastors read from the same book. but that's fine with me. If you want to limit your scope to only one source instead of gaining knowledge from everything around you, that's your own deal.

Great, so now because I'm non-believer, I work for the Devil. Fine, I'll play by your rules. I am now a devil's advocate. RUN you fool, I will slaughter you.

And I'm going to ignore the rest of what you say because I'm a person who do not like having too many repititions in her own arguements as well as repitition in others as well.

And please, before you accuse me of 'not being able to defend my arguement', please think of something newer for me to argue, instead of the same old thing, and I will endeavor to entertain you with my time.

[abberdabber]

How have you suffered persecution for your beliefs? You persecute EACH OTHER and persecute people of other faiths. You divide amongst yourself to different denominations, each claiming to be the 'right' one.

Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, WE ARE the ones who are labled as HEATHENS and BARBARIANS. We're "LOST" "REBELS" in your eyes. We sit near a puddle of mud while you are swimming in the ocean. WE're the ones who are being persecuted for our free will. You all just get off easy being forgiven and all and getting to go to Heaven while we have to be BURNED for eternity in HELL. Remember the Salem Wictch trials? Women were burned because a few 'good' Christians believe that they were working for the Devil... ooooh.
I don't see how YOU could come to the conclusion that Christians suffer more. That makes me wanna laugh

Fae, once again, you are generalizing, do you mean 'you' as christians or 'you' as in me? because personally, i dont believe that what those 'Christians' did was right, but why should I, personally be held accountable for their actions? And you say that you have to be burned fo enternity in hell.. hmm.. you dont have to be, im sure you realize that by now. You have no idea what christians.. yes i am generalizing now, go through day from day for their beliefs. You dont have any idea what its like to walk through the hallway everday knowing that your every move is being scrutinized.

If He has made it "plain" then there would be no such thing as a non-believer. It is because God had made things TOO complicated and too DOUBTFUL that people like me exists.
False. If everything has been clearly seen and clearly understood, then we would not be having this debate about His existence. Because things are UNCLEAR and nothing of such miracles has been truly seen that there are non-believers.
False, there are those who are raised without ever knowing God. Children in poorer countries who lived only knowing how to find food and water, children who grew into men and only know of their own gods DO NOT know of YOUR God at all.
People like me know about God, but we do not 'know' Him. Do not assume that we do because we've never met Him, we've never felt Him...etc.Fools we may be, we are only mortals after all. To say that Christians are not foolish is to say that Christians are smarter than non-believers, and that's PRIDE. Isn't that a SIN? It's kind of 'foolish' to say that with so much pride. "The truth of God" is an opinion. There is no truth in religion. Your truth might not correspond with a Jew or Muslim's truth. It's only that I am neither Jew nor Muslim that I cannot argue with you... I think I will do a poor job in their behalf, so I can only defend them as best I could. I should be offended by these claims, but I'm not, I'm only quite amused.

God has made it plain, in everything, God is all around us, you just have to elvaluate your perspective. If you dont want to think He's here, then of course you're not going to see Him. As for the people in other countries, God wasnt speaking of that at all, because there are going to be people who can honestly stand before God and say that they didnt know. In that scripture that you were quoting the entire time, It was Paul speaking throughout the entire scripture about people that hear the word of God yet ignore it.

Okay, this is where things gets heated. So you're saying that you're a better Christian? I doubt that. People in the past were very devoted to the faith, so much, that they were wiling to die for it. Just because YOU serve God in a different way than them DOES NOT mean that they were not true followers of Christ. You're too prideful for your own good.The knights of the Crusades fought against what they Church claims were 'heathens'. THE CHURCH declared that heathens must be killed! They were only following orders!!! How could you say that they are nothing like you? They would do anything for God. Man that is soooo wrong of you to say that. 

I did not say that I am a better christian. I simply said that for that CHURCH to commit such sin, and then to right it by saying that they would be forgiven, they were corrupt. The church is much different than being just a believer. I go to church, as a believer, to learn more about Christ. But in the Bible it says that the churches have grown corrupt and greedy. Do not assume that because there is a church that claims to be Christian, I am a part of it. MANY MANY MANY people today call themselves Christians, it isnt fair to assume that because they give themselves the title, and expect to be recognized as one, that we act, or believe in the same things.

I do, however, owe you an apology. I shouldnt have debated anything with you, I knew you would take these things with a hardened heart and not recieve the true love in the scriptures and whatnot. I made it a point to show you that your ways were "wrong" which in turn, was wrong of me. I know that no matter what so called facts I give you, that you will combat everything I say with some sarcastic remark. It was wrong of me to go on with this.

[Spirited Away]

Fae, once again, you are generalizing, do you mean 'you' as christians or 'you' as in me? because personally, i dont believe that what those 'Christians' did was right, but why should I, personally be held accountable for their actions? And you say that you have to be burned fo enternity in hell.. hmm.. you dont have to be, im sure you realize that by now. You have no idea what christians.. yes i am generalizing now, go through day from day for their beliefs. You dont have any idea what its like to walk through the hallway everday knowing that your every move is being scrutinized.

I said you and I meant Christians, because they (the knights) were called themselves Christians, and I'm taking their words for it. I am sincerely sorry if you are offended by it, but then you should blame them for their actions, and not me for my interpretation of it.

Having your every move scrutinize is nothing compared to having to fight for your life because you're considered a heathen. Now days, religion is no longer so harsh in their wake, but it is still very strict. You are promised forgiveness no matter what you do, why must you be fearful? In that, I am truly confused.

You don't think I'm fearful of going to purgatory? In truth, I am, but I since I do not have a choice in it, I will not fight it. By having no choice, I mean that I do not believe in God and I would be forced to believe in Him in order to be forgiven.

God has made it plain, in everything, God is all around us, you just have to elvaluate your perspective. If you dont want to think He's not here, then of course you're not going to see Him. As for the people in other countries, God wasnt speaking of that at all, because there are going to be people who can honestly stand before God and say that they didnt know. In that scripture that you were quoting the entire time, It was Paul speaking throughout the entire scripture about people that hear the word of God yet ignore it.

Science has made it plain, in everything, science is all around us, you just have to evaluate your perspective. If you don't want to think science is not here, then of course you're not going to see it.

I ignore things that cannot see (spiritually speaking).

I did not say that I am a better christian. I simply said that for that CHURCH to commit such sin, and then to right it by saying that they would be forgiven, they were corrupt. The church is much different than being just a believer. I go to church, as a believer, to learn more about Christ. But in the Bible it says that the churches have grown corrupt and greedy. Do not assume that because there is a church that claims to be Christian, I am a part of it. MANY MANY MANY people today call themselves Christians, it isnt fair to assume that because they give themselves the title, and expect to be recognized as one, that we act, or believe in the same things.

So you are a bit different than most Christians. Most Christians swears that the Church is the house of God, and therefore cannot be corrupted as God is its master.

It isn't fair for me to say that, no, but it isn't fair for you (or the person) who said that non-believers are senseless, wicked, faithless, heartless, ruthless... etc. That wasn't only unfair, but incredibly outdated and ignorant.

I do, however, owe you an apology. I shouldnt have debated anything with you, I knew you would take these things with a hardened heart and not recieve the true love in the scriptures and whatnot. I made it a point to show you that your ways were "wrong" which in turn, was wrong of me. I know that no matter what so called facts I give you, that you will combat everything I say with some sarcastic remark. It was wrong of me to go on with this.

I will admit being in the wrong myself, but only for that I was sarcastic in my reply. I usually don't unless I am offended by something.

[sadolakced acid]

sure, christians shouldn't be persecuted for what the crusaders did...

but on the other side, should the jews be persecuted for "killing jesus" ?

sure, i'm 'anti-christ' although i prefer the term 'anti-christian-convertism' or 'anti-evangical'

i just hate it when some christian comes to me and starts 'doing god's work'

i have a question.

why can't the christians leave the other religions alone instead of 'converting the infedel' to save them? if my religion is wrong, so be it. let me burn. but if mine is right, christians do not burn.

i am not bad because i am not christian. i am not bad at all. but i am not christian. will i still burn just because i refused to acknoledge christ?
and , will the mass murderer that 'truly repented' go to heaven?

is this, what's that word, justice?


no one has ever died and come back and told us what happens. (jesus didn't tell us, did he? ) no one knows what religion is right. so can't people just respect other religions? why does the infidel need to be saved?

i don't have a problem with people going to church or with what they belive. i just have a problem with people who try to make me belive what they do.

[ryfitaDF]

sure, christians shouldn't be persecuted for what the crusaders did...

but on the other side, should the jews be persecuted for "killing jesus" ?

sure, i'm 'anti-christ' although i prefer the term 'anti-christian-convertism' or 'anti-evangical'

i just hate it when some christian comes to me and starts 'doing god's work'

i have a question.

why can't the christians leave the other religions alone instead of 'converting the infedel' to save them? if my religion is wrong, so be it. let me burn. but if mine is right, christians do not burn.

i am not bad because i am not christian. i am not bad at all. but i am not christian. will i still burn just because i refused to acknoledge christ?
and , will the mass murderer that 'truly repented' go to heaven?

is this, what's that word, justice?


no one has ever died and come back and told us what happens. (jesus didn't tell us, did he? ) no one knows what religion is right. so can't people just respect other religions? why does the infidel need to be saved?

i don't have a problem with people going to church or with what they belive. i just have a problem with people who try to make me belive what they do.

tru dat. tru dat.

i'm wif ya, man.

down with bogitry.

[abberdabber]

Fae, ive been reading through the last few posts of our debate the last couple of nights, i mean it was kind of fun.. was it not? I looked forward to what you had to say about the points I had made, as I'm sure you did as well. I just wanted to point out that I, in absolutely no way, meant any harm in our conversations, as I know at some points I was rather rude. You seem like an awesome person, and I've never met anyone so strong-willed and determined to let their opinion stand. I dont really know why I'm writing this to you, except to say that I'm sorry that I came across as I did, .. prideful? as you said? I dont really know, but I just wanted to try and clear it up. alright well for once in my life, I've run out of things to say.

So you are a bit different than most Christians. Most Christians swears that the Church is the house of God, and therefore cannot be corrupted as God is its master.

I am a lot different than a lot of Christians you will meet today, I mean, at least I hope so. . Did you know that over 6 million people in the world today claim to be so called christians? That's why I got so upset when you generalized, because I am not .. hmm.. well like most of them. I believe with everything inside of me that there is a God, and thats where I jacked all of this up. I was so focused on telling you that you were 'wrong' that I lost all perspective and the point of our discussions. You see, I'm nondenominational, thats why I'm so used to the idea that chuches are like man, they can get corrupt and lose sight of the whole reason for them being there. Church, for a lot of people decieves them into the mindset of.. "Well, It's sunday, I've prayed and given my tithe.. I'm good to go for the next week.." It just aggrivates me, I'm sure you can tell. People see God as a church building and a bible. When He is so much more. A lot of people dont realize that church is for guidance.. for learning more about Christ.. but CHRIST himself is supposed to be your foundation. I read my word and go by that, not by what some self-appointed preacher tells me to do. I guess thats what makes me different. I refuse to just sit down and have people tell me how I need to serve GOD. I have to see it for myself. He's going to guide me.. not some crazy church. And the same thing goes for religion.. thats why I dont really have one. I mean I am a christian, but it stops there, I go to church on wednesdays and on sundays occasionally, saturday nights are the best.. but i like it better when I can praise and worship at home, on my own, in my own way..
I think thats why I got so upset when you were generalizing me as a christian, with every other christian out there.. Just because I believe in Christ, doesnt automatically make me some brainwashed bible thumper. As it was wrong of me to judge you, just because you arent a follower of my faith, doesnt make you some GOD-awful sinner, not that I had thought that of you in the first place. I just mean that I'm sure you got the feeling that I was putting you down or patronizing you, as an Un-believer. I dont think I did, but .. I very well could have.

ah well, I hope you catch the sincerity in my tone throughout this post.

[queen]

i find it interesting that when we say "god" everyone automatically assumes it's the "christian" god and automatically discuss the "christian" beliefs. it's as if we were discussing something TANGIBLE.

i believe god is who you want god to be. s/he is in your heart, mind, and soul. s/he represents faith in yourself and life. how do you live believing in nothing? well, i guess there are many who are able to, but those who can't turn to the divine entities. you're all discussing the guidelines for believing in a god, when there shouldn't even BE one. if you truly believe in a god, then s/he speaks through your heart, and that's all you need.

the god of the christians is not the only one that exists, but i do believe all faiths lead to the same celestial being. my god IS your god IS his god IS her god IS their god. god appears to us in different forms, but s/he is inside every one of us - including the nonbelievers. everytime you ask yourself a question, everytime you look toward yourself for strength, everytime you have HOPE, it's god. if god truly did give us free will, it's the free will to be able to choose your own path - to be jewish, christian, catholic, muslim, atheist, or agnostic. god is our inner existence.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

Why believe in something I cannot see, when I can believe in something I can see? (Not to say that I believe in anything only visible to the eyes. That was only to contrast what you say.)

I suppose the nit-picky people you're reffering to are the non-believers? I suppse we are, but I can easily accuse Christians of being the same way.

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

I can be friends with anyone so long as they're nice.

(eep! this is longer than intended)

This might be a dumb example, but think about it-

When people are trying to decide what to wear they generally check out the weather. It's not very fun to be wearing long pants and a sweater during 90 degree weather. So they check it out, and trust the meterologists.
Well, when I wanted to know if God was really there, and if He really did love me I looked into some stuff. I found so much proof of Him. He's all around us. God is loving and warm, when I look at my cat I can see God. Because my cat is always there for me and can lift my spirits. When I look at my best friends, I see God, because they'd never abandon me. Look deeper at things and I'me sure you'll see Him.

And I'm not just referring to the non-believers. Not at all. Just about everyone posting on this thread is going into detail that won't be listened to and taken to heart by the opposing side. If you were feeding a five year old would you present them with some fancy meal that they probably won't like? Of course not! You'd whip out a peanut butter and jelly. They'll eat it. So, when presenting your point are you going to whip out a long complicated explanation of the Darwin Theory? You can, but to be honest, I've avoided the longer ones. And I know a lot of the non-believes don't like the bible quotes. So why not make it simple and from the heart?

And of course I'd be friends with a non-believer! Did I sound like I wouldn't in my last post? My bad homie. I didn't mean to if I did. If I refused to be friends with a non-believer that would actually make me a bad Christian. As a Christian I should at least try to love everyone. I don't judge people on their faith. I think that's dumb.

[Spirited Away]

Fae, ive been reading through the last few posts of our debate the last couple of nights, i mean it was kind of fun.. was it not? I looked forward to what you had to say about the points I had made, as I'm sure you did as well. I just wanted to point out that I, in absolutely no way, meant any harm in our conversations, as I know at some points I was rather rude. You seem like an awesome person, and I've never met anyone so strong-willed and determined to let their opinion stand. I dont really know why I'm writing this to you, except to say that I'm sorry that I came across as I did, .. prideful? as you said? I dont really know, but I just wanted to try and clear it up. alright well for once in my life, I've run out of things to say.

Strong-willed and my kind of keen determination has gotten me into a lot of trouble. But I was just as rude as you thought you were, though, I usually say that being rude is okay and is expected in a debate. And I'm just as guilty of being prideful as you are.

I am a lot different than a lot of Christians you will meet today, I mean, at least I hope so. .

In an earlier arguement with Princess, I have said that I believed the Church and the Bible to be middlemen. As in, they stand in the way of building a relationship with God, if He exists. The Church is a definate middleman, but I know that you disagree with the Bible being as such. To me, because Man wrote the Bible, there's a chance that they were as corrupted as the Clergy could. How can anyone be certain that the Bible contains words of God, when it was Man who created it?

I believe with everything inside of me that there is a God, and thats where  I jacked all of this up.

My Christian friend says the same thing. Hehe, she strongly believes in God, but she rarely goes to Church even though her parents forces her to go. In her own words, she says the Churches she has been to all turned gradually into a business, a market of people who want to buy their way to Heaven. They wave the Bible as a tool and speak like an auctioneer would...

Those sorts of things are really what instill doubt wariness in people like me, who has nothing against God, but more like we come to dislike what He stands for because of these people who wants to sell religion.

"Well, It's sunday, I've prayed and given my tithe.. I'm good to go for the next week.." It just aggrivates me, I'm sure you can tell.

Believe me when I say that it aggravates me as well to hear people say that all I need to do is ask God for forgiveness for my sins. When they say that, it makes me think they act so high and mighty when in reality, they sin as much as I and perhaps even more so.

People see God as a church building and a bible. When He is so much more. A lot of people dont realize that church is for guidance.. for learning more about Christ..

I will try not to generalize all Churches, but from what I hear from my friends and from what I've seen for myself, some Churches offer guidance for a price. God has been turned into a symbol of such because there are men of Christ who intended things to be that way. Not all pastors have your best interest in learning about God in mind.

patronizing you, as an Un-believer. I dont think I did, but .. I very well could have.

Oh, I didn't realized that I was being patronized, except for that one part about non-Christians being selfish, heartless, and ruthless part. And in truth, I was too frustrated by the different answers I was given by different people, not knowing which was the one that actually has some truth to it. Perhaps all of them were truths, perhaps they were all made up, I don't know.

That's the hardest part of being a non-believer: you don't know what the truth is because everyone claims to be 'right', so many of us make up our own truths in hope that we are right as well.

It's not that we do not fear the possibility of Hell, because I assure you that if Hell exists, we would be petrified.

However, to be sent to Hell because of this confusion created by fellow Man, is not at all fair. That is why I am constant in arguing that if there is a God, He would be fair and kind and wouldn't blame us agnostics or atheists for our doubt.

But since everyone has been saying that God will forsaken non-believers, I will not fight it. If that is our fate, no matter how unfair, let it be.

I do not speak for other agnostics or atheists, but I understand their disbelief for what it is and what strives them to think that way.

[Spirited Away]

i find it interesting that when we say "god" everyone automatically assumes it's the "christian" god and automatically discuss the "christian" beliefs. it's as if we were discussing something TANGIBLE.

Sorry for double posting.

We've also discussed, not so detailed, about some other faiths as well and have made some comparisions in the other "god" topic. This is only a continuation of that and we have narrowed it down to the Christian God because there are only Christians in here who are arguing for God.

I would welcome any other religions to argue...

And I agree only 5o% of the rest of what you say, especially: "but i do believe all faiths lead to the same celestial being".

[queen]

But since everyone has been saying that God will forsaken non-believers, I will not fight it. If that is our fate, no matter how unfair, let it be.

I do not speak for other agnostics or atheists, but I understand their disbelief for what it is and what strives them to think that way.

you may not believe in the christian god, but there is a god inside you. when you feel emotional pain, who do go to for help when no one else is there? when you feel remorse for something you've done, don't you turn towards yourself for forgiveness? you can say that it's not a god, just an inner sense of morality. but if you don't believe in god, why do you worry about the "unfairness" of your "fate"? i DO understand why agnostics and atheists believe what they believe, or in this case DON'T believe haha.. but i believe they have an inner concept of god. everyone has faith in SOMETHING, and that takes the place of a god for them.

[Spirited Away]

you may not believe in the christian god, but there is a god inside you.  when you feel emotional pain, who do go to for help when no one else is there? when you feel remorse for something you've done, don't you turn towards yourself for forgiveness? you can say that it's not a god, just an inner sense of morality.  but if you don't believe in god, why do you worry about the "unfairness" of your "fate"?  i DO understand why agnostics and atheists believe what they believe, or in this case DON'T believe haha.. but i believe they have an inner concept of god.  everyone has faith in SOMETHING, and that takes the place of a god for them.

That's a nice concept, too, to believe that there's a god in oneself. It could be possible.

It's not that I do not believe in a Higher Being, because I have said that I do in earlier posts, but it's more like Man has made this Being into something marketable.