A CHALLENGE TO THE ATHEIST Options

[illriginal]

Please explain how the shroud of turin is real.

I don't want to hear any more about perfect bone structure; that simply means that the shroud isn't from a human. It doesn't mean the shroud is the real image of jesus.

Im gonna explain this in laymen's point of view.

The shroud is real because of carbon dating which proves that it's not a "medieval" fake. It was dated Centuries before the Medieval times.

This shroud was founded in Turin, Italia. Which makes complete sense because the Romans during that time were in that part of the world, where Europe is now.

The description of the figure shown in the shroud, explains how the figure who was in human form, had the crown of thorns and the gash underneath the ribs.

In Rome crucifixion was a norm for prisoners, which was only thousands. Some died on the cross but they were only crucified as a way to shame them. But NOT one of them other than Jesus ever had a crown of thorns. The Crown of thorns was a symbolization of being a king, the king of the Jews.

Jews had a treaty with Rome for self-government, therefore acting as a king of the Jews went against Rome. The Jewish priests complained to Rome that Jesus was interfering with their self-rule and Pilate challenged Jesus to deny this. With no denial forthcoming, Pilate announced a 'guilty by default' verdict and the priests demanded the death penalty. The crime for which Jesus was crucified therefore was 'King of the Jews', and this was duly painted on the titulus.

The inscription was written in Latin, Greek and Hebrew1, 'Jesus the Nazorean, King of the Jews'2, which in Latin reads: IsvsNazarenvsRexIvdæorvm. Which is the INRI.

Anyways, when the opposite of a negative (not positive) picture was developed they could clearly see a human form on this shroud, it is called an energetic imprint. (Thus is why I made my claim of Optical Physicist. I study light such as lasers and energy, including the sun) An energetic imprint is basically when energy becomes so powerful (in a explosive burst) that it leaves an imprint of a radioactive-like energy on whatever it was transfered onto.

Into further and deeper research they were able to discover a frame (skeleton/ cartilage) So they had over 200 high profiled Anthropologists who used Cineradiography and Bioarchaeology and compared them to hundreds of thousands of Anatomical charts/models/human skeletons from all over the world.

They realized that the bone structure was 100% perfectly symmetrical. I forget the name of the machine they use for this, but it checks bones at the scale of 1 thousandth of an inch.
There was no imperfections, and the left was symmetrical to the right.

Even IF this was just a human, from a mother and a father. It wouldn't even have a perfectly symmetrical bone structure. It's impossible. No human nor animal can have that perfection. Why? Because your mother and father and their ancestors all are different in size/shape in other words, in frame/bone structures. On top of that, no human has ever and still hasn't produced that intense amount of energy to create an energetic imprint..

To make it even more evident, on the shroud, there's a rusty lookin spot, where that spot is located, is right in the rib area of the figure that is shown in the shroud.

For 20 years people have been tryin to debunk it, and they have every right attempting to debunk it. But every time they were ahead, Science's technology came and proved them wrong.

So as of now, the shroud is legit, to those who understand all the studies/research that were done. But then there's those who maybe understand all the procedures, or think they understand but really don't and they keep trying to debunk it with the same tactic, problem is, they will not accept the answer.


You can get a heck of a lot more answers from the book, "The Urantia".

All these haters wouldn't be able to even fathom the information given by the Urantia and will just slander it, before even lookin to see where you can purchase the book.

Thus is why I'm condescending... when I should be humble for my knowledge. Because us humans are ignorant and stubborn to learn things that might just prove us wrong.

[kimmytree]

Free country, and I don't think I'm breaking any forum rules. If I am I would be warned or have a message sent to me by now :P

I didnt say you were breaking any rules. You just keep coming off as a arrogant jerk not being very intelligent.

[illriginal]

I didnt say you were breaking any rules. You just keep coming off as a arrogant jerk not being very intelligent.

Not trying to start a problem, but intelligence has nothing to do with personality. But you're right, maybe I'm acting much more like a arrogant jerk than I am expressing my intelligence.

[illriginal]

Err. I'm Christian too. But actually, you're wrong. The bible has undergone a series of changes. The old testament is borrowed from the jews. The New Testament (if I'm not mistaken) was first passed down orally since the people who believed in Jesus were illiterate. And people who wrote the bible were concentrated in pretty much the same area.

Personally, I don't take the bible literally. My beliefs are based upon personal experiences. Experiences where I felt that there was someone there for me, and there is a God. And I don't think God is as strict as religion makes him.

When it comes to Science vs. God, I think that Science actually proves God's extistance. Sure the scientists of the Renaissance unlocked the secrets of the Universe. How it worked, what revolved around what. They may say it contradicted the bible, and therefore, it was false. I don't think so. That's why I don't take the bible literally. What if the scientists simply unlocked the Universe's blueprint? Since God made man so intellegent?

The early Roman Catholic church believed that the Earth did not move. Of course, Galileo, through observation, proved that it does in fact move, and *gasp* it revolves around the SUN!

Psalms 103: "You fixed the earth upon its foundation, not to be moved forever."

^ Well people took that literally. Remember. People made up religion. People who knew nothing about the universe. Well what do you expect? Of course they'll say things like that. Besides, this was passed on orally. I'm sure most of you are aware of what can happen when things are passed on from person to person. The meaning might even alter. Did I say that Galileo was a devout Catholic? Because he was. His daughter was a nun too.

I don't need the bible to believe in God. For me, it's a guide. Not to be taken literally.

I just wanna say, this is the best damn post I've read in this thread. In all honesty.

[ReggieM]

i agree that post was really really good, if i wasnt already a christian i would switch right here right now. TRY IT?

[xKatt]

And that someone's mom that you claim (which I DOUBT really happened) is no better than someone who prays to Lucifer. Why? Because they judged with definite judgment of another human's spirituality. That is forbidden.

... Okay, I have not lied once in everything that I've said. A debate doesn't consist of throwing personal accusations and insults, and so far you're taking the crown for that.

You can be atheist and pretend God is man made, I don't care.. it doesn't bother me non. Now if you wanna slander God and God's prophets/apostles, with such disrespect, be thankful that you're on the internet. Because face to face, I'd spit on your face. But I wouldn't judge you. Remember, it's your soul, not anyone elses. No one should care bout your spiritual decision(s).

I don't pretend God is manmade because that is my belief. And my beliefs are not pretend. Respect them.

If you don't care about my spiritual decisions, why are you still responding to my posts? Why are you still even in this topic? If you don't care about anyone else's spiritual decisions why do you bother reading them?

Oh wow, you'd spit on my face? How nice. This debate really is turning into a poo-flinging contest.

Aww it's tough being the minority? How bout you stop boasting that you're atheist in your area and maybe, just maybe people won't care bout your belief system. Keep it to yourself and it'll be ok. lol @ minority victim.

1. I don't boast that I'm Atheist. In fact, I don't tell anyone except my close friends, and they're Atheist or Agnostic as well. If someone asks I always tell them I'm Buddhist which is what I was born as (don't ask me why I was in Catholic school :S).
2. You wouldn't know what being a minority is like, ok? I live in a completely white, country music listening, Republican and Christian community. I'm an Asian, metalhead, Democratic Atheist. I'm open fire for ridicule, so don't even make comments on something you don't know.

And beyond NONSENSE No one knows when the book was written, because it wasn't authored. The book was discovered in its entirety.

Oh wow. Just because a book was "discovered" doesn't mean it's ancient.

Yes Ancient English. Do you know what Ancient English is? Can you even point out an Ancient English word? I highly DOUBT it.

This isn't even worth responding to.

PS. Notice, all the bold text in the quotes are personal insults/accusations. Arjuna, please tell this kid to settle down!!

--

Only religious faith can sustain such a belief. To believe that someone floated up to the sky and disappeared (i.e., rose into heaven) is also not going to be proved one way or the other by these shroud arguments. Finally, no amount of physical evidence could ever demonstrate that a man was God, was also his own Father and conceived without his mother ever having had sex. Thus, no matter how many brilliant scientists marshal forth their brilliant papers with evidence for images of Biblical ropes, sponges, thorns, spears, flowers, tumbleweeds, blood, etc., none of it has the slightest relevance for proving these matters of faith.

I think this sums of the shroud of Turin pretty well.

My opinion on this Shroud of Turin is that it was a medieval piece of artwork.



Anatomical peculiarities:
- The arms are too long
- The head is 5% too big
- He's at least 5'9 which is rare for Jews, especially of that time period

Furthermore...

Bill Cork, himself a devout Catholic, writes:

First problem is the image is too neat. Imagine the scene--imagine draping a cloth over a body. It isn't like laying a cloth over a box. The body is a three dimensional irregular shape. That means in some places, like the stomach, the cloth will lay flat; on the head, it will follow the contours...
Those who believe in the Shroud talk about it being projected through some sort of radiation or something at, say, the moment of the Resurrection. There are going to be distortions whenever you project an image of a three dimensional figure onto a flat surface. This is the problem with map-making...
Then there's the matter of the blood. There's just not enough of it, and it isn't caked and matted enough, it hasn't seeped into the material [bloodstains were found only in the first layer of the cloth and no further]. The body of Jesus was taken down and wrapped hurriedly, and the woman were going back Sunday morning to do the formal preparation. What "blood trickles" are visible are too neat, and do not look like a bandage (the Shroud) was actually pressed against it.

The Shroud of Turin is no less fallible than the Bible and religion itself. People believe only what they want to believe thus making this a controversy. Using common sense, one would realise that this shroud is not the result of a supernatural occurence but simply a painting done in olden times.

PHEW THIS POST TOOK FOREVER D:

[illriginal]

... Okay, I have not lied once in everything that I've said. A debate doesn't consist of throwing personal accusations and insults, and so far you're taking the crown for that.
I don't pretend God is manmade because that is my belief. And my beliefs are not pretend. Respect them.

If you don't care about my spiritual decisions, why are you still responding to my posts? Why are you still even in this topic? If you don't care about anyone else's spiritual decisions why do you bother reading them?

Because I enjoy spoiling an atheist's day, only when they mock and disrespect the existence of God and God's apostles/prophets.

Oh wow, you'd spit on my face? How nice. This debate really is turning into a poo-flinging contest.

Shoot you're lucky it isn't Moses, it would be a sword across your neck


1. I don't boast that I'm Atheist. In fact, I don't tell anyone except my close friends, and they're Atheist or Agnostic as well. If someone asks I always tell them I'm Buddhist which is what I was born as (don't ask me why I was in Catholic school :S).

Then I guess your friends are whack for spreading your personal information out to the world, specially since you have random mothers disrespecting your belief system.

2. You wouldn't know what being a minority is like, ok? I live in a completely white, country music listening, Republican and Christian community. I'm an Asian, metalhead, Democratic Atheist. I'm open fire for ridicule, so don't even make comments on something you don't know.

I don't know what being a minority is? I was raised in an Italian neighborhood in New York. My family except for those who aren't blood related (married into the family) all look Italian, speak Italian, and have an Italian way of life. But we are Dominicans as well, and speak Spanish, and also live in a Dominican way of live.

Now speaking of minority, in that neighborhood, no Blacks, no Asians, not even Hispanics were respected. They were not tolerated!

My family couldn't even speak Spanish outside of their home. My mom even warned me not to speak Spanish, and to only speak English and Italian with our neighbors.

Do you know what it's like, to get into fights all the time, because someone found out about your other half of your ethnic roots? Or because you spoke Italian but you pronounced a word or two with a Hispanic accent? Or even because you didn't look so much Italian, instead you just looked differently than the other Italians.

I live in a damn Italian/Jewish community, majority of these people are either Christian or Jewish!! I'm Muslim for God sakes, do you know how quick people are to look at you like you're a damn suicide bomber if you even say an Arabic word? LOL OR if you even walk with a Qur'an in your hand?

Oh and my community as well is Republican, that's just a given. I'm not even a Democrat, I'm a Socialist. I follow in the foot steps of my Grandfather (who was a Colombian Socialist politician) and my father.

And I listen to Underground/Independent Hip hop + Heavy metal, and blast that shit in my car's system. People look at me like I'm insane or just another wanna be black person with no future.

So basically speaking, I'm a Latin, who speaks Spanish and Italian, I'm a Muslim Socialist, and I listen to music that most of the community hates. So you're no more of a minority than I am shorty. And to make it even more justifiable, you're a girl... you don't know what it's like to get into a fight at least once a month for 3 years. You didn't have a father nor an uncle who would yell at your for coming home with a bloody lip because they assumed you LOST the fight.


Oh wow. Just because a book was "discovered" doesn't mean it's ancient.
This isn't even worth responding to.

See this is your problem, you have comprehension problems, and I don't know why. And I'm not gonna slam you for it. I never made the claim that the book is ancient. The only thing ancient about that book, is a lot of the text is in Ancient English.

And the thing is, I think you never heard of Ancient English, so you can't grasp the concept of it. For whatever the reason may be... But realistically speaking, Ancient English is in fact real. A lot of it is obsolete just like most of the Latin language is obsolete.

One of those links (which you most likely didn't even bother to read), was a link of Oxford's Old, Old English Dictionary, in which does actually have Ancient English words.

PS. Notice, all the bold text in the quotes are personal insults/accusations. Arjuna, please tell this kid to settle down!!

--

Sorry I have no patience, barely any tolerance, and I become pretty damn condescending and arrogant in debates. Especially when I know what I'm talkin about and the other person doesn't have a clue.

I think this sums of the shroud of Turin pretty well.

My opinion on this Shroud of Turin is that it was a medieval piece of artwork.

Actually it's not your opinion... it a common opinion of those who can't even understand the thousands of hours put into the research of this shroud and what was discovered.



Anatomical peculiarities:
- The arms are too long
- The head is 5% too big
- He's at least 5'9 which is rare for Jews, especially of that time period

Oh c'mon, Anatomical properties/stats have been changing. Ever since they discovered bones that belong to humans of which were 10-16 feet tall, and humans of which were just 3-4 feet tall. Just with the fact that the bone structure didn't have any imperfections, most of the humanly possible traits/properties/stats were thrown out the window when in comparison. Because they had to star thinking in the concept of Jesus being half man half God.

And who cares, we also have to keep in account that Jesus was no MORE than half a human. So he had all the physical traits of a human. But doesn't mean Jesus had to have the traits of a specific race... either.

Furthermore...
The Shroud of Turin is no less fallible than the Bible and religion itself. People believe only what they want to believe thus making this a controversy. Using common sense, one would realise that this shroud is not the result of a supernatural occurence but simply a painting done in olden times.

PHEW THIS POST TOOK FOREVER D:

Using common sense would be to actually study and research all the information that was put out. Not just read some random stupid websites that hold no value in their claims. They're using THEIR common sense, but ignoring the SCIENTIFIC FACTS.

And again... Carbon Dating alone destroys any of your debates about this being some sort of painting and this being in the Medieval times etc. That has been debated for 15 years, and finally no one uses that debate anymore because it was already proven factual that it is an authentic relic.

You guys are just typing in "shroud of turin" into google and clicking whatever you can find that goes against the authenticity of this shroud. And all of that crap you're clicking isn't even updated, because if it was they wouldn't be using that argument. That argument was slaughtered to death by science.

P.S. Catholics are blasphemy to the Laws of God, they don't have any creditability. Thanks for trying though.

[kimmytree]

^ So where the heck are you getting your information on it then? lol

[illriginal]

^ So where the heck are you getting your information on it then? lol

Scholars, Scientists, Universities, etc...

[kimmytree]

^ Then maybe try showing some sources then?

[sadolakced acid]

The Shroud of Turin is no less fallible than the Bible and religion itself. People believe only what they want to believe thus making this a controversy. Using common sense, one would realise that this shroud is not the result of a supernatural occurence but simply a painting done in olden times.

believers will always choose to believe what they want. While this is perfectly fine for personal religion, it makes for poor debates.

Why did I come here and decide to debate about whether a random person was an idiot? It's pointless. But this whole debate is pointless.

You get misinformed people like 1angel3, which while annoying are quite bearable, then you get arrogant hacks like tamacracker, who are infuriatingly stupid.

In all my time at cB I have refused to debate with tamacracker, because there's no point. He'll drop to ad hominim, and ignore anything you say.

And while I do admire your effort in this debate, I do think your time might be better spent arguing against people who actually listened.

[sadolakced acid]

b.leh

[xKatt]

believers will always choose to believe what they want. While this is perfectly fine for personal religion, it makes for poor debates.

Why did I come here and decide to debate about whether a random person was an idiot? It's pointless. But this whole debate is pointless.

You get misinformed people like 1angel3, which while annoying are quite bearable, then you get arrogant hacks like tamacracker, who are infuriatingly stupid.

In all my time at cB I have refused to debate with tamacracker, because there's no point. He'll drop to ad hominim, and ignore anything you say.

And while I do admire your effort in this debate, I do think your time might be better spent arguing against people who actually listened.

This is the best post in this entire thread. It sums everything up in a nutshell.

If I'd been here longer, I'd realise that talking to tamacracker was like talking to a retarded llama that spat at me randomly.

Naturally, I'll still linger around, but I'm not going to waste my time writing up half-page posts.

[*Flair*]

Tamacracker's problem is the fact that he isn't open. He never says anything concrete. He's all bla bla.

Note: this only applies to the debate forum.

[tr1pp1n]

Can we still make fun of the brack girls dad?

[*Flair*]

No we can't. And it isn't brack, it's Black. And why call her 'Black girl'? She's just a girl.

Why don't we make fun of you instead?

[illriginal]

It's not my problem you guys are mentally weak. You use old ass arguments. Why should I waste my time answering your arguments? It makes no sense. I made it easy for you to understand, calling it a damn Medieval fake is an old argument. Science already proved the morons wrong.

3 of you used the same damn argument. All of which are old and useless to modern debates of the shroud. I'm sorry you can't handle the fact that the shroud is legit.

At least give me a challenge, then maybe I won't be so arrogant, or how bout a guy with some real debating skills that knows his shit? Leave it up to the men.

Oh and sadolakced acid, do me a favor, get your head out of the sand... or is it still up your ass since the last time I checked?

I don't really waste my time with youngsters... and I don't answer to stupid arguments as I stated before, which a couple of them you made. All I did was read and chuckle then ignore and gave understanding :P

[*Flair*]

Another problem, you insult those who don't see things eye to eye with you.

[illriginal]

Another problem, you insult those who don't see things eye to eye with you.

Who cares? And the Talmud says all Non-Jews are subhuman... deal with it.

[*Flair*]

Well, the people whom you are debating with care.

[illriginal]

Well, the people whom you are debating with care.

They should care bout their education and the source of their education if they want me to treat them with respect in a debate... That's why I can debate some topics and others I leave alone, cuz I simply either don't know much about it, or just don't give a damn about it.

And the best part is, non of these Atheist will read the books I mentioned, so they'll stay ignorant to what I bring to the table. But that's not my problem and I don't care. I'm not here to give educational lessons.


Edit: Alright I'm outta this thread.

[tr1pp1n]

No we can't. And it isn't brack, it's Black. And why call her 'Black girl'? She's just a girl.

Why don't we make fun of you instead?

Okay you little pansy. The girls dad.


removed, please ask permission before posting pictures of others -micron

little long to load i guess

[*Flair*]

This shows your level of stupidity. Didn't daddy tell you that making 'fun' of people is bad? Poor thing.

[kimmytree]

I don't really waste my time with youngsters...

Then why are you still here? Most of us are obviously younger than you, but that doesnt mean we're any less capable of debating.

[1angel3]

Okay you little pansy. The girls dad.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6097/hahahahahaub9.gif
little long to load i guess

What did I ever do to you? You need help! Don't ever use my picture without my permission