Jesus, God's son. Options

[Simba]

My old pastor explained it to me a long time ago, he's been studying the Bible for 40+ years and that's what he said. Jesus is the son of God but in reality Jesus is in fact God, they are no different, read chapter John, Jesus was merely God in the flesh who died on the cross for our sins...God couldn't come down himself because he would be too bright for us to see...my pastor said imagine God like the sun? The sun is too bright to really look at, that is God. I can't remember how the rest went but that's exactly what he said...

This is similar to what I know of. That Jesus was an incarnate of God. But it wasn't limited to Jesus being the only incarnate of God.

He also incarnated in different regions, such as Chaitanya in India, when supposedly God, or the Surpreme Being, played the role of a devotee to "God" (who was known as Krishna, at the region) as well as an example of what a devotee should be like. Basically, a similar role as Jesus plays.

[HakunaMatata]

That's what the Jehovahs believe in. They believe Jesus was merely a prophet and didn't die on the cross, they do believe in an angel or something called Michael. Yes, born from a Virgin, if God is all powerful he'd have the power to do that, it's kinda like magic

I know this has little to do with the debate at hand, but I'd like to point out that Jehovah's Witnesses do believe that he was the Son of God and that while he did not die on a cross, he did die for our sins.

Yep, and just because science hasn't been able to explain it doesn't mean it does not exist =]

Well, can't the same be said about God? Just because we can't explain everything about God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

[Simba]

Science is only a method of acquiring knowledge.

[NoSex]

Science is only a method of acquiring knowledge.

Are you implying that there are other epistemologically appropriate means of gaining knowledge, aside from reason?

[Stuckie]

God and Jesus are the same person...Jesus is merely God in the flesh, he couldn't come down as himself because he is too bright to see so therefore he sent Jesus which is in fact himself.

Too bright? I never heard it like that. I heard it was because he was too holy. And that as sinners we were not worthy too look upon him.

I have more views on the birth of Jesus but if I were to speak of them your world as you know it would cease to exist.

[NoSex]

I have more views on the birth of Jesus but if I were to speak of them your world as you know it would cease to exist.

Try this one on for size: It never happened.

[Ington]

It would be funny if there was just a really smart man once who decided to pull the ultimate prank by writing the Bible off of his head. That would be hilarious.

I believe what we gather from ancient texts contains unreliable information. The problem is not that people were dishonest back then about something they saw, but it was that they did not know what they saw. I say you can believe what you want about Jesus and walking on water and Trinity and all. I don't believe that a supreme being would cause so much mayhem in his own creation by founding many of the ancient scriptures and texts.

I also say that I'm not trusting some writing or events from a time when I wasn't alive. I will not blind myself in these texts without word from God himself.

Also, this may offend some, but I think the New Testament is entirely unreliable, while the Old Testament is moderately reliable. The New Testament went through entirely too much revising, caused too many tragedies, and caused too much hatred.

[Stuckie]

I believe what we gather from ancient texts contains unreliable information. The problem is not that people were dishonest back then about something they saw, but it was that they did not know what they saw. I say you can believe what you want about Jesus and walking on water and Trinity and all. I don't believe that a supreme being would cause so much mayhem in his own creation by founding many of the ancient scriptures and texts.

You think its unreliable because they didnt understand what they saw? Just because you record something that you dont understand doesn't make it unreliable. Some of the recordings in the Bible have even been proved true by scientific standards.

[NoSex]

You think its unreliable because they didnt understand what they saw? Just because you record something that you dont understand doesn't make it unreliable. Some of the recordings in the Bible have even been proved true by scientific standards.

The intent of the gospels may very well not have ever been historical accuracy. There isn't a need for anyone to not understand, or for anyone to see. Hell, maybe none of the gospel writers ever saw anything of what they wrote. Maybe they were not even those persons whom they report themselves as being. The scholars don't tend to disagree all that much on the matter: We don't know who wrote the Gospels, but, at best, most if not all of the accounts found in the Gospels are of hearsay.

Sure there are historical accuracies and influences within the text of the bible, this makes sense. Similar, if not more impressive and insightful, accuracies and influences present themselves in all kinds of spiritual writings and text shared by and believed in by many a different faith. Still, this makes sense. However, to ever suggest that the 2,000 year old acts of rising from the dead, walking on water, and magically healing the sick could be proven to a scientific standard is absurd and offensive. We must almost universally laugh at such propositions. Sure, some of the Bible has been proven to be historically accurate, but those things which are most important and central to the Christian faith have escaped the reach of all such proofs. And, because of it, these positions share equal plausibility to the stories of mysticism believed in, prayed on, and meditated to for centuries and centuries by millions and millions of individual and diverse spiritualists who deny the Christian faith. Further, even these stories are equivalent, in epistemological standards, to the story of Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny.

[Stuckie]

Actually the Bible tells you who wrote each book. And would you know if its hearsay? Have you read the Bible?

[Ington]

You think its unreliable because they didnt understand what they saw? Just because you record something that you dont understand doesn't make it unreliable. Some of the recordings in the Bible have even been proved true by scientific standards.

They were not proved true. They were proved possible. Also, yes, I believe they were unreliable, because the writings were not only what they saw, but what they saw through their perspective. A natural phenomenon could have been mistaken for a miracle, and a coincidence could have been mistaken for the word of God. They had no way of knowing, and I don't know them, and I don't trust them.

[Stuckie]

Here is a little test. Seeing as you and Acid Bath Slayer dont believe in the Christian faith, Its pretty obvious you dont read the Bible. Here is what I want you to do. I want you to prove the Bible wrong by actually studying it. I want you to read the original King James Version. If you can prove, after reading the Bible, that its wrong I will admit that Christianity is flawed. But if you can't prove that its wrong, you have to admit that the Bible is reliable.

You guys up for it?

[Ington]

I really don't think you should assume that I don't read the Bible. I have plenty of knowledge not only about my own faith and Bible, but about the history and writings of many other faiths as well.

And you are missing my point completely. Just because no one can prove something wrong doesn't mean its right. Isn't that a Christian argument about God and Jesus? Don't you believe that just because no one can prove science wrong, it doesn't mean that Jesus couldn't have done the things he supposedly did? Well, that's the method I'm taking on Christianity. Just because no one can prove the events recorded wrong, there is no outstanding evidence they're right. It just means there isn't any evidence to prove it wrong.

And by evidence, I don't mean "He said" or "She said". If you look at it logically, you have to take into account all margins of error. And the human mind is a major source of error. You can't take someone's word for it based on something you heard or read, as everyone is in some way biased, and has their own agenda for what they do.

[Simba]

Are you implying that there are other epistemologically appropriate means of gaining knowledge, aside from reason?

Sure, though, maybe not necessarily as "reasonable." Asking an authority, tuition, experience, etc. Reason is certainly used in science, though reason =/= science.

Here is a little test. Seeing as you and Acid Bath Slayer dont believe in the Christian faith, Its pretty obvious you dont read the Bible. Here is what I want you to do. I want you to prove the Bible wrong by actually studying it. I want you to read the original King James Version. If you can prove, after reading the Bible, that its wrong I will admit that Christianity is flawed. But if you can't prove that its wrong, you have to admit that the Bible is reliable.

You guys up for it?

What about proving the Bible correct? I wouldn't necessarily put my faith in scriptures written by people that, who knows what was going in their heads at the time. Some things may even have been written metaphorically, just like modern books.

Just, if you'd ask me, it should be you trying harder to prove something that, as Nate has stated, is even equivalent to the stories of Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, other various fictions.

[sweetangel2128]

Ok I remember the god is too bright thing and how my old pastor said it. He said it like this...

God is the sun, the sun is too bright to directly see (or as in God, too holy to see), Jesus would be the reflection of God, the reflection of God in human form/human flesh, the sun shows upon the water to show it's true form which creates a reflection in the water. Therefore, God is the son which we cannot clearly see and Jesus is the reflection of God which we can see. So God sent himself in the flesh so that we could see him and learn more about him.

Ok as for the other people that are saying "read the Bible and tell me it's not real". Okay, don't get me wrong, I am a Christian and I love God but instead of telling someone to actually read the Bible who is not a Christian isn't right. To a non-believer it will NOT make sense to them why a believer depends upon it so much. If your wanting to prove facts about the Bible, bring up the Shroud of Jesus, I recently picked up a book called - "Verdict On The Shroud" which was written by 2 men that actually studied the cloth that was found. An image was on that cloth depicting a man with a beard and when they read the gospels meaning "the bible" the man described depicting Jesus. Your probably thinking "How can that be? The bible doesn't describe how Jesus looked" true..but it does say how he died and on this Shroud of Turin they found wounds of the man in the image that proves to us that Jesus did exist and that the Bible was a fact. The book also has pictures of what the shroud looked like before they studied it and how they used different tools to study it and what the image looks like on the cloth and you can clearly tell it's a man.

[NoSex]

Actually the Bible tells you who wrote each book.

Circular reasoning.

Further, lets just take a look at the gospels.

Matthew - Internally anonymous. Hearsay. Most scholars agree that Matthew did not write this Gospel.[1]
Mark - Internally anonymous. Hearsay. Written before Matthew.
Luke - Internally anonymous. Unknown author.
John - Authorship is vague. Unknown author.

Further, given the dates of the gospels, they certainly were not first-hand accounts.
People didn't live to be 90 years old 2,000 years ago. They also didn't wait 60 years before jotting down the most important and meaningful experience in their life.

And would you know if its hearsay?

Refer to the above.

Have you read the Bible?

Yes.

Here is a little test. Seeing as you and Acid Bath Slayer dont believe in the Christian faith, Its pretty obvious you dont read the Bible. Here is what I want you to do. I want you to prove the Bible wrong by actually studying it. I want you to read the original King James Version. If you can prove, after reading the Bible, that its wrong I will admit that Christianity is flawed. But if you can't prove that its wrong, you have to admit that the Bible is reliable.

You guys up for it?

Since we don't believe it's somehow obvious that we don't read the Bible?
Are you assuming that the Bible is so comprehensive and convincing that if we were to read it we would be immediately converted and that the only way we couldn't believe is if we were ignorant to its content? That is so arrogant, I can't even fathom.

As goes reading the Bible: been there, done that.
I was once a Christian, I read the Bible plenty. f**k, if anything, reading it more just made me believe less. Have you ever read it? Got some f**ked up shit in there.

Sure, though, maybe not necessarily as "reasonable." Asking an authority, tuition, experience, etc. Reason is certainly used in science, though reason =/= science

Authority is certainly not an epistemologically appropriate means of gaining knowledge.
There is a reason argument from authority is a fallacy. Someone telling you something certainly doesn't prove it.
Intuition is implicit or unconscious reasoning. Also, not exactly the best way to reach knowledge either.
Experience can only lead to knowledge given that the said experience is viewed rationally.

Problem is, we have to define knowledge. That can lead to problems.

[Simba]

Authority is certainly not an epistemologically appropriate means of gaining knowledge.
There is a reason argument from authority is a fallacy. Someone telling you something certainly doesn't prove it.
Intuition is implicit or unconscious reasoning. Also, not exactly the best way to reach knowledge either.
Experience can only lead to knowledge given that the said experience is viewed rationally.

Problem is, we have to define knowledge. That can lead to problems.

Understood. My point, though, was that science is not the only method of gaining correct knowledge.

[Ington]

There is no method to gaining correct knowledge. The only things you truly know are yourself and things you have experienced.

God is the sun, the sun is too bright to directly see (or as in God, too holy to see), Jesus would be the reflection of God, the reflection of God in human form/human flesh, the sun shows upon the water to show it's true form which creates a reflection in the water. Therefore, God is the son which we cannot clearly see and Jesus is the reflection of God which we can see. So God sent himself in the flesh so that we could see him and learn more about him.

This is why I don't believe in Christianity. In your statement, God seems a bit out of character, don't you think? God is an eternal creator, yet he can't communicate with humans? God created all and knows all, yet created Christ, who unwittingly leads the world to seemingly eternal warfare? Did he not expect this to end up destroying his creation?

If God wanted us to believe in Christ, why would he make us so that some of us don't? If He created us, why would he make some of us with different ideas? I bet answers to this would be along the lines of, "Because He wants only those who follow him on their own to join him in heaven". By your terms, God created the saints and the sinners alike. He gave us the right to decide our paths, but already knew which path we would take (as God is supposed to know all). Creating doomed humans doesn't seem fair, does it?

All Christianity does is contradict itself over and over again.

Also, who here has heard of the Bible Code? Its a seemingly God-written code in the Hebrew bible, the Old Testament. I've read parts of it, and I admit, it is amazing. It has an almost uncanny ability to depict any peice of history ever percieved in its texts, and even bits of the future. This is one thing I refuse to believe is a hoax, because I read Hebrew. I saw the words, I saw how they were organized into code, and I saw how the code formed history, as well as recent events and the future. That is a form of proof. One might not believe it entirely, but it is still written to the level of complexity beyond human abilites. It hints God.

Christianity has nothing of the sort, other than rumors passed down from millions of people. Its like a huge game of Telephone.

[sweetangel2128]

This is why I don't believe in Christianity. In your statement, God seems a bit out of character, don't you think? God is an eternal creator, yet he can't communicate with humans? God created all and knows all, yet created Christ, who unwittingly leads the world to seemingly eternal warfare? Did he not expect this to end up destroying his creation?

If God wanted us to believe in Christ, why would he make us so that some of us don't? If He created us, why would he make some of us with different ideas? I bet answers to this would be along the lines of, "Because He wants only those who follow him on their own to join him in heaven". By your terms, God created the saints and the sinners alike. He gave us the right to decide our paths, but already knew which path we would take (as God is supposed to know all). Creating doomed humans doesn't seem fair, does it?

All Christianity does is contradict itself over and over again.

Also, who here has heard of the Bible Code? Its a seemingly God-written code in the Hebrew bible, the Old Testament. I've read parts of it, and I admit, it is amazing. It has an almost uncanny ability to depict any peice of history ever percieved in its texts, and even bits of the future. This is one thing I refuse to believe is a hoax, because I read Hebrew. I saw the words, I saw how they were organized into code, and I saw how the code formed history, as well as recent events and the future. That is a form of proof. One might not believe it entirely, but it is still written to the level of complexity beyond human abilites. It hints God.

Christianity has nothing of the sort, other than rumors passed down from millions of people. Its like a huge game of Telephone.

Yes, God does know everything, he didn't create sinners, he created people in his image and gave us free will. We are born sinners because of Adam and Eve, they sinned against God. I don't think you know Christianity that well and you shouldn't judge something you do not know about. You keep saying God made the Christ...God IS Christ...like I said Jesus is the Christ but he is God sent to the earth to warn people and to tell them of Heaven and how to have everlasting eternal life. Pick up a Bible and read chapter John it tells you that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Yes God does know what path were going to take and yes it does seem fair..he gave us free will but he also knows what were going to pick.

In what way is Christianity contradicting it's self. Explain!?

Christianity is not full of rumors, you can believe what you want. But when you die and face God what are you going to tell him?

[Ington]

So you're telling me He created everyone, and then was completely surprised when some turned into sinners? I'm saying an all-knowing God should have known what he was producing and the futures of his creations. Thus, he should have the power of being able to produce only the people who do not become sinners.

And don't give me crap about going to read the New Testament, I've already read that part. You're the one who said that God created Jesus so that humans could see him, didn't you? I was playing on your words. And besides, the idea that Jesus is God just strengthens my point. How would a God with the power to create everything and see all of time 'slip' with Christianity?

I'm going to tell Him, "Where were you?"

[sweetangel2128]

So you're telling me He created everyone, and then was completely surprised when some turned into sinners? I'm saying an all-knowing God should have known what he was producing and the futures of his creations. Thus, he should have the power of being able to produce only the people who do not become sinners.

And don't give me crap about going to read the New Testament, I've already read that part. You're the one who said that God created Jesus so that humans could see him, didn't you? I was playing on your words. And besides, the idea that Jesus is God just strengthens my point. How would a God with the power to create everything and see all of time 'slip' with Christianity?

I'm going to tell Him, "Where were you?"

Yes, he did create everyone. No, he wasn't surprised. Like I said God is all knowing and he probably knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him but he loved us that much to try to save us, hence why Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

I never said God created Jesus, I said that he came down from Heaven AS Jesus which in fact is God in the flesh. How does the idea of Jesus being God strengthen your point? In order for us to be forgiven Jesus had to die on the cross and shed his blood that's one of the reasons why he was sent. Why would he slip with Christianity? Well because we are given free will...it all comes down to that because if we weren't he could control us, even now he can, he just chooses not to because he gave us FREE WILL. As for Adam and Eve, like I said we are born sinners because of them...

So, your going to tell him where he was? He's probably going to tell you just this - "I was there the whole time". There's a verse in the Bible that says this, its:

Jeremiah 29:13
13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

[Ington]

In order for us to be forgiven Jesus had to die on the cross and shed his blood that's one of the reasons why he was sent.

I love when people say that. In order for our sins to be cleansed, Jesus, or God, had to die by our hands. I think that's hilariously contradicting.

I think you have to be taught as a devout Christian to be completely oblivious to how ridiculous that sounds. I believe that God would not cleanse any sins or forgive anyone by another person's death. Sins and bad deeds aren't something that could be passed to another person as a scapegoat.

I think there has been a hideous censorship of true texts and meanings sometime during history. I refuse to believe in this nonsense. A Creator would never forgive his creations with the destruction of another creation. I'd guess that He'd want us to listen to Him, not kill his supposed human manifestation.

For a second, put away all you were taught, and think about it as a logical person. Not logical by means of science, but by ethics and morals, which is something you religious ones should have at least some experience in.

Also, if the Christian texts were true up to Jesus being killed, the rest must be a lie. God definitely did not forgive anything. It would actually make sense, seeing how many wars and such occured due to the murder of Jesus and the faith he indirectly brought into the world. If it were true, then God cursed humanity for murdering the 'messiah'.

[kameron]

as you might have already found out, jesus is god!
its hard to under stand at first.

father+son+holy ghost=God!

its almost like Jesus took a part of him and sent it to create earth(son)

[AngelinaTaylor]

Yes, he did create everyone. No, he wasn't surprised. Like I said God is all knowing and he probably knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him but he loved us that much to try to save us, hence why Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

I never said God created Jesus, I said that he came down from Heaven AS Jesus which in fact is God in the flesh. How does the idea of Jesus being God strengthen your point? In order for us to be forgiven Jesus had to die on the cross and shed his blood that's one of the reasons why he was sent. Why would he slip with Christianity? Well because we are given free will...it all comes down to that because if we weren't he could control us, even now he can, he just chooses not to because he gave us FREE WILL. As for Adam and Eve, like I said we are born sinners because of them...

So, your going to tell him where he was? He's probably going to tell you just this - "I was there the whole time". There's a verse in the Bible that says this, its:

Jeremiah 29:13
13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Haha. Jesus didn't die to "save us". I can't believe there are people who still buy this. If Jesus was killed for religious crimes, as the Christians claim he did, he would have been killed with STONES, not crucified, because that's what the Romans would have done. That was the law. He was killed for crimes against the state, hence he was crucified, as were hundreds more people at that time.

Christianity doesn't have much to claim as its own. It's not original. There are SO many elements which have existed before - the virgin birth, the cross as a symbol of Christianity, the trinity, the name Christos, etc. Not to mention the way the church tried to cover everything - but that's not surprising, given the fact that they were yearning for more and more control.

Christianity is bull. If you take it literally, you've got to have shit for brains.

[kameron]

Haha. Jesus didn't die to "save us". I can't believe there are people who still buy this. If Jesus was killed for religious crimes, as the Christians claim he did, he would have been killed with STONES, not crucified, because that's what the Romans would have done. That was the law. He was killed for crimes against the state, hence he was crucified, as were hundreds more people at that time.

Christianity doesn't have much to claim as its own. It's not original. There are SO many elements which have existed before - the virgin birth, the cross as a symbol of Christianity, the trinity, the name Christos, etc. Not to mention the way the church tried to cover everything - but that's not surprising, given the fact that they were yearning for more and more control.

Christianity is bull. If you take it literally, you've got to have shit for brains.

It is true!
He was not killed for religious crimes, he was killed because christians believed he was the king & the earthly king didn't want some one taking over.
Therefore, he was killed on the cross. Not just Jesus was killed that way. Even in the bible it says, on the night he was killed, two other men were dying on the cross.

Christianity is original.
Everything you listed above is all from the christian religion.

How can you say all of this stuff when you don't have anything to back it up.
PM me if you want to talk more about this.