for Christians and atheists Options

[*the_overachiever*]

"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"I wouldn't say that."

[No answer]

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could in fact most of us would if we could. God doesn't."

[No answer] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is Jesus good? Hmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again young fella. Is God good?"

"Err. Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From?God...?"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?"

[No Answer] "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

[No answer] The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice, he asked, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?

[No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all the evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer] "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again no whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer] "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus. In fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer] "Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID. You haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"..yes.."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please."

The first Christian sits. Defeated. Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, yet another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. IS there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than 273 degrees below zero. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at..?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes.?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it is called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error..."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed..? How dare you..!"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain...ooh, explain...?The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability himself. He weaves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look...?
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. IS there such thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues, "IF there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "AS a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

The Christian replies, I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed the evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed...?
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"

The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind? The class breaks out into laughter. The Christian points toward his elderly, crumbling tutor. "IS there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind? No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits.

[danyo]

Sure, I can almost hear you say that GOD SACRIFICED HIS ONLY SON for us to live in Paradise and that's the most self-less act ever!!! Not really. There are people who would sacrifice their own lives to save those that they love as well.

have you seen the movie "The Passion of the Christ"? if you did, the way He died is horrible and i heard that movie had to be edited to be less violent and gory.
that is true, alot of people would sacrifice their own lives to save others, i would too, even for you, but im not sure if id be able to sacrifice my life in the way Jesus Christ did for me and everyone else.. if i do, i would probably hesitate to for a long time before i jump in.

There are parents who love their children regardless of who they are and what they do in love. Those parents are selfless and self-sacrificing. God isn't anywhere near selfless if He expects something in return.

God DOES loves everyone the same, every single one of HIS child.
Let's say you have mmm.. 5 sons.. and you just bought a new house to move into in a new neighborhood with your sons and this place is perfect.. everyone is happy.. its very peaceful.. nobody is sick so no sick can go in and nor is there any medicine there because there is no need. But two of your sons have... SARS. You have a cure for each of them and one took one and was cured but the other refuses to take it and says "you are not my mother". what would you do? unless he takes the cure, he won't be able to go with you guys to the new house in the new neighborhood because the other 4 child will get sars and die along with all the other neighbors. this is kind of life the situation God is in. Jesus is the medicine. it's you're decision to either take it or not. just an example i came up with but i'm not sure if that is a good enough example but yea.. hope that part kind of made sense to you fae. (:

[Spirited Away]

have you seen the movie "The Passion of the Christ"? if you did, the way He died is horrible and i heard that movie had to be edited to be less violent and gory.
that is true, alot of people would sacrifice their own lives to save others, i would too, even for you, but im not sure if id be able to sacrifice my life in the way Jesus Christ did for me and everyone else.. if i do, i would probably hesitate to for a long time before i jump in.

Yes I did saw it, but it was kind of boring to me... no offense to those who love the movie of course. The link I sent you about Thomas Paine's view on Christianity would reveal how I feel about Jesus:

He may believe that Jesus was crucified, because many others were crucified, but who is to prove he was crucified for the sins of the world? This article has no evidence, not even in the New Testament; and if it had, where is the proof that the New Testament, in relating things neither probable nor provable, is to be believed as true?

If that event actually happened, why is it that we must be categorized the same as the ones who aided in the killing of Jesus? We are NOT of the same nature! While they were blood thirsty, we are not as such and often times forgive those who have wronged us. Why are we the ones blamed for someone else's crimes?

God DOES loves everyone the same, every single one of HIS child.

Erm, confused... are we not all supposed to be His creation according to Christianity?

Let's say you have mmm.. 5 sons.. and you just bought a new house to move into in a new neighborhood with your sons and this place is perfect.. everyone is happy.. its very peaceful..  nobody is sick so no sick can go in and nor is there any medicine there because there is no need. But two of your sons have... SARS. You have a cure for each of them and one took one and was cured but the other refuses to take it and says "you are not my mother". what would you do? unless he takes the cure, he won't be able to go with you guys to the new house in the new neighborhood because the other 4 child will get sars and die along with all the other neighbors. this is kind of life the situation God is in. Jesus is the medicine. it's you're decision to either take it or not. just an example i came up with but i'm not sure if that is a good enough example but yea.. hope that part kind of made sense to you fae. (:

That was a very fine example! However, I would love my son enough to force him to recognize me as his mother. Even if the child isn't mine, and the only way to save his life would be for him to accept me, I would some how PROVE that I am or make him believe me because his life is precious. You know, children will believe things that holds valid proof unless they lack the ability to think logically.

Anyway, I liked the example more so than your donuts story.

[Devastation]

great topic.

[Spirited Away]

great topic.

And... do you have anything else to add? Perhaps your own views on the topic?

[Ze world is a Ma...]

I liked that

are you kidding? i loved that but both sides are right. everything is flawed even God Himself he as the professor said created this world he created satan did he not
why did he ever create such thing like the snake to convince bad to eve why did he created it so that the snake was there to lure her. why didnt her let us live in th egarden eh? but then science is also flawed.

[*[2]Nekked*]

that was great even for an atheist.

sorry i didnt feel like all 6 pages though.

concerning the discussion about mind vs. brain, i dunno if this was already resolved, but here are my thoughts:

The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.

the mind is manifested in thought, perception, emotion... etc. it originates from your mind. you cant see thought. you cant see perception. you cant see emotion. your logic that if the brain did not exist then the mind wouldnt, and therefore the mind is observable is flawed. because if our bodies did not exist than neither would our thoughts. because one cannot exist without the other, does not mean that both are observable.


now concerning everything else:
think backwards for a moment. what if you worshipped God all your life, but he did NOT exist?

[sikdragon]

its amazing i have come to those same conclusions in science class. The rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, well that is a new line thanx that was a really good post.

[broken inside]

That Christain probably failed physics. There is porrof of evolution, there is no proof of Adam and Eve.

[timeflies51]

With the "seeing evolution" thing, there was a recent news article that reported the findings of Darwin's finches on the Galapagos Islands. They're still evolving.

http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/060...rwin_finch.html


Brought up interesting points. The atheist's points were nothing I haven't heard before, though (kind of disappointing).


I agree that there is no such thing as cold and no such thing as darkness for they cannot be measured. However, who says you can measure good and evil? Because there is no common consensus on what is good and what is evil, how could you ever measure it?


And the "professor's mind" thing was ridiculous. At least you're able to do all of those things to his mind. But do all of those things to God? No one's done so yet.

[hirador]

I had never read that before, I liked it. It presents both sides which is something that you don't see much since they are quiet the opposite of eachother.

[Joss-eh-lime]

so in the end part hes saying
we can see a brain. but we cant see a mind. and based on what the professors saying this means he has no mind.

i enjoyed reading it. im really tired of teachers putting down their students opinions and belifes becuase they think they are smarter, wiser and always correct.

[ktsou11]

That's interesting. I like it!

[NoSex]

I've read it several times, I've even seen it preformed as a play. I've also had people tell me that the student questioning the professor was Einstein, which, of course, is not substantiated by anything. As far as I can tell, this is just a really lame and ineffectual piece of christian propoganda. Entirely fiction. The largest problem I have with this story is that the atheist position is reduced to what the christian writer sees of it, which is painfully shortsighted. As an effect, the atheist position is just a mere straw man of an actual argument from evil. The christian uses a misunderstanding of science and special pleading to appear to have made a meaningful point. When, in actuallity, there is really nothing of use in this story. Always been sickened by it. Lame.

[Kontroll]

This is dumb.

[oXMuhNirvanaXo]

Mind is more like thought.

I loved this. I must print this out.

[AngelinaTaylor]

Nate's right. This is lame. I could create the same thing, but with the roles switched. It's easy to make someone look like an idiot.

[*Uronacid*]

I've read it several times, I've even seen it preformed as a play. I've also had people tell me that the student questioning the professor was Einstein, which, of course, is not substantiated by anything. As far as I can tell, this is just a really lame and ineffectual piece of christian propoganda. Entirely fiction. The largest problem I have with this story is that the atheist position is reduced to what the christian writer sees of it, which is painfully shortsighted. As an effect, the atheist position is just a mere straw man of an actual argument from evil. The christian uses a misunderstanding of science and special pleading to appear to have made a meaningful point. When, in actuallity, there is really nothing of use in this story. Always been sickened by it. Lame.

It is lame... it's played out, but... as for the God creating satan and sin thing

I don't think that humans would even be able to comprehend love if they were perfect. God created humans without sin, but gave us the ability to do it. Love cannot exist if you do not have a choice. If you loved everyone, and everything was perfect could love really exist? Love is a sacrifice. Love is doing whats best for others. Love is putting others needs above your own. If everythign was perfect, you wouldn't have a choice. You love by making a choice to love. If sin or hell didn't exist, then love would not exist either. God created sin so He could demonstrate love to us, and also give us the ability to demonstrate love Him/other. I believe that this is one of the greatest gifts.

[NoSex]

Love cannot exist if you do not have a choice. If you loved everyone, and everything was perfect could love really exist? Love is a sacrifice. Love is doing whats best for others. Love is putting others needs above your own. If everythign was perfect, you wouldn't have a choice. You love by making a choice to love.

Hmmm. Well, then I would posit that, within the Christian theology, love can not exist.
[See, http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125890]

[AngelinaTaylor]

Love cannot exist if you do not have a choice. If you loved everyone, and everything was perfect could love really exist? Love is a sacrifice. Love is doing whats best for others. Love is putting others needs above your own. If everythign was perfect, you wouldn't have a choice. You love by making a choice to love.

Bullshit. You don't "choose" who to love. Your heart does, or at least that's the most poetic way I can put it. It's not a damn choice. At least the feeling isn't. You don't choose who you'll fall for. That's so superficial.

[*My Cinderella.*]

Wow. What a good read.

[twinkles6801]

I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks, but i have no argument on this.

[MrStrife]

Liked the story how the two just go at it with each other. Still atheist and believe in myself. Saw on a shirt one time "Better to be an open sinner than a false saint"

[femmefatale4160]

I thought that was brilliant. The second Christian is amazing...that takes some serious courage. I heard another story similar to that, but much shorter.

A Kindergarten teacher told her students one day that there was no God. To prove her point, she had one of her students look out the window. She asked if he could see the sky, the trees, the playground...all of which he could see, but he could not see God. "That's because he's not real," said the teacher.

A little five year-old girl stood up and asked the boy if he could see the teacher's brain. "No," he said.

"Then from what we learned today, she may not even have one!" said the little girl.

Anyway, my point is that we should not need to see something to believe that it is there. I'm a firm believer in Jesus, and I think it's ridiculous that so many people try to dispute my opinion. Why is believing in Christ more outrageous than believing in Santa Claus or the Easter bunny?

I've had encounters with the Holy Spirit that leave no doubt in my mind that God is real. We can't see air, but we know it exists. Why couldn't we have more faith in God. Not everything in life can be explained, and not every question has an answer. People just have to accept that.

Besides which, a great man once said, "I'd rather pray all my life and find that there is no God, than die and find that there is."

[NoSex]

I thought that was brilliant. The second Christian is amazing...that takes some serious courage.

Brilliant? Are you serious?
It's such a terrible thought experiment. Not to mention, an awful misrepresentation and straw man of an actual atheist position. Ridiculous.

Anyway, my point is that we should not need to see something to believe that it is there. I'm a firm believer in Jesus, and I think it's ridiculous that so many people try to dispute my opinion. Why is believing in Christ more outrageous than believing in Santa Claus or the Easter bunny?

Are you f**king serious?

1. "See it to believe it," isn't exactly literal. It's more figurative.
2. How is it ridiculous that people try to dispute a position you hold?
3. How is it not ridiculous that you hold a position without evidence and despite contrary evidence?
4. People don't seriously believe that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny exist, if they did, that would be outrageous.
5. Believing in Christ actually molds human beings in a certain way. It's actually significant to the human experience. Believing in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny: Not so much.
6. Are you serious?!

Besides which, a great man once said, "I'd rather pray all my life and find that there is no God, than die and find that there is."

Great man my ass.

Pascal's Wager is a logical fallacy. On top of that, it's a very contemptible position. There is nothing admirable about beliving in something simply for fear of death, dummy.

[PandaKnight14]

By Pascal's wager, you would have to find the religion with the worst hell, too.

Besides, true belief could not come from fear of a possibility you odn't believe is likely.