gay marriages, UHHHH!! Options

[broken inside]

ok, im not opposed to it because:

1. I'm bi and i like girls more, 'nuff said.

[bobby james]

I don't see a point in gay marriages. You're not having any kids, they know that they love eachother if there is even love involved, so basically it's just signing a piece of paper saying that's yours. It's easier to just live together and love, be committed, and wear a ring. I just don't find any reason for gay marriages.

[AngelinaTaylor]

I don't see a point in gay marriages. You're not having any kids, they know that they love eachother if there is even love involved, so basically it's just signing a piece of paper saying that's yours. It's easier to just live together and love, be committed, and wear a ring. I just don't find any reason for gay marriages.

Hmm. So people just marry to have kids? Interesting.

[*mipadi*]

I don't see a point in gay marriages. You're not having any kids, they know that they love eachother if there is even love involved, so basically it's just signing a piece of paper saying that's yours. It's easier to just live together and love, be committed, and wear a ring. I just don't find any reason for gay marriages.

Couldn't the same be said of heterosexual marriages, as well?

[*Zatanna*]

Couldn't the same be said of heterosexual marriages, as well?

Absolutely. In fact, I'm a herterosexual AND I do not believe in marriage.

People don't generally marry for the fertility reasons alone. In fact, many successful marriages, both homosexual and otherwise involve two people who do not have children.

[*Uronacid*]

Hmm. So people just marry to have kids? Interesting.

I don't think that marraige is just to have kids... Marraige represents two people who are bonded together willing to support eachother in love for the rest of their lives. Marriage represtents safety and security. People can have kids while they are married, and they have the support/love of eachother while raiseing their kids. Marraige is the ultimate promise a person can make to their partner that they will be there for them for the rest of their lives.

First of all - I'm not against it. Second of all, that's completely untrue because people do have other reasons to be against it EVEN IF they are not Christian. Some people see it morally wrong. Some people just don't think it's normal. I still don't get your logic here. Or the point you're trying to prove ...
Just like the evolution theory. I understand that the "born gay" issue hasn't been completely proved, but it's a pretty good theory. In time, I'm sure they'll prove it.

You still didn't answer/comment on some of my questions:

Yes, it is descrimination for someone to be against homosexuality if they aren't religious. If you are religious than the main reason you are against homosexuality is that you love people and don't want them to sin. Even you being non-religious see me as discriminating against homosexuals because you cannot see it any other way. You aren't religous. Therefore you don't understand. You really have to believe in the religion to understand, and I don't expect you to. Give me a reason other than a religious one for people to be against homesexuality.

Right, it's a theory that people are born gay, and until proven it is a usless tool in this arguement.

I did answer your questions, you just didn't understand my answers.

1. I know pleanty of gay people, and i enjoy their company. My grandmother is gay, one of my best friends turned gay, and I'm friends with gay people at my school. I don't hate them, and they know where I stand. I think homosexuality is wrong, but I still love them as people.

2. People make choices subconciously, and do things that they feel they cannot help doing all the time.

[AngelinaTaylor]

Yes, it is descrimination for someone to be against homosexuality if they aren't religious. If you are religious than the main reason you are against homosexuality is that you love people and don't want them to sin. Even you being non-religious see me as discriminating against homosexuals because you cannot see it any other way. You aren't religous. Therefore you don't understand. You really have to believe in the religion to understand, and I don't expect you to. Give me a reason other than a religious one for people to be against homesexuality.

Bullshit. I think you're way out of line here. What you're saying is completely untrue and you contradicted yourself. Because in a previous post, you said that some people just think it's morally wrong. And now you say it's discrimination if you're not religions and have something against homosexuals.

I don't get you, man.

I did answer your questions, you just didn't understand my answers.

Right.

1. I know pleanty of gay people, and i enjoy their company. My grandmother is gay, one of my best friends turned gay, and I'm friends with gay people at my school. I don't hate them, and they know where I stand. I think homosexuality is wrong, but I still love them as people.

Good.

2. People make choices subconciously, and do things that they feel they cannot help doing all the time.

Oh yeah I'm sure that's what it is. Unless you're a psychologist, I don't think you'd know.

[*Uronacid*]

Bullshit. I think you're way out of line here. What you're saying is completely untrue and you contradicted yourself. Because in a previous post, you said that some people just think it's morally wrong. And now you say it's discrimination if you're not religions and have something against homosexuals.

I don't get you, man.
Right.
Good.
Oh yeah I'm sure that's what it is. Unless you're a psychologist, I don't think you'd know.

erf... give me a reason that people could be against homosexuality if thay are influenced by religion

[AngelinaTaylor]

Ok, first off you say that they have no reasons of THEY'RE NOT religious.

Now you tell me to give you a reason for being against homosexuality if THEY ARE religious?

o.O You're not making much sense.

[*I Shot JFK*]

I don't think that marraige is just to have kids... Marraige represents two people who are bonded together willing to support eachother in love for the rest of their lives. Marriage represtents safety and security. People can have kids while they are married, and they have the support/love of eachother while raiseing their kids. Marraige is the ultimate promise a person can make to their partner that they will be there for them for the rest of their lives.
Yes, it is descrimination for someone to be against homosexuality if they aren't religious. If you are religious than the main reason you are against homosexuality is that you love people and don't want them to sin. Even you being non-religious see me as discriminating against homosexuals because you cannot see it any other way. You aren't religous. Therefore you don't understand. You really have to believe in the religion to understand, and I don't expect you to. Give me a reason other than a religious one for people to be against homesexuality.

Right, it's a theory that people are born gay, and until proven it is a usless tool in this arguement.

I did answer your questions, you just didn't understand my answers.

1. I know pleanty of gay people, and i enjoy their company. My grandmother is gay, one of my best friends turned gay, and I'm friends with gay people at my school. I don't hate them, and they know where I stand. I think homosexuality is wrong, but I still love them as people.

2. People make choices subconciously, and do things that they feel they cannot help doing all the time.

congratultions on presenting a strong argument in favour of gay marriage

and i really, really, dont understand how you can KEEP presenting the misconception that a religious base somehow means that denying a group of people equal rights is NOT discrimination, when that is clearly ridiculous.

[NoSex]

Main Entry: discriminate
Pronunciation: dis-'kri-m&-"nAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -nat·ed; -nat·ing
Etymology: Latin discriminatus, past participle of discriminare, from discrimin-, discrimen distinction, from discernere to distinguish between -- more at DISCERN
transitive verb
2 : to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit <discriminate in favor of your friends> <discriminate against a certain nationality>

Alright, by definition, denying an individual the right to marriage simply because of their sexual orientation is certaintly discrimination. No way around that. Religious or not, it's discriminatory.

Also, while examining the proposition, "Religious morality negates the evils of unenlightened discrimination," make sure to remember history. It was not uncommon, at many points in the past, to use religious positions as a means to discriminate. For instance, civil rights and the issues of slavery were upheld, by many, as biblical values. It was thought that since slavery is detailed in scripture, that we should not feel ill for partaking in it. Is the slavery of an entire people not discrimination simply because someone felt it was their religious right to shackle and chain the poor and black?

I just do not find any reason to believe that a religious argument can negate discrimination.

[*Uronacid*]

Ok, first off you say that they have no reasons of THEY'RE NOT religious.

Now you tell me to give you a reason for being against homosexuality if THEY ARE religious?

o.O You're not making much sense.

I meant for you to give me a reason for people to be against gay marriage if they arn't religious...

Also I agree with you as far as discrimination. You have changed my view... I have been thinking. God gave us freewill right? Shouldn't we have freewill to choose what sins we partake in. Should we give homosexuals the right to gay marraige because they desereve the right to choose between what the bible states as a sin and what the bible states as loving the Lord. Love is a choice after all, and shouldn't we allow homsexuals to make the choice... -_-

I will still vote "no" against gay marriage... I beliave that it's morally wrong. discriminatory or not. Homosexuality is against my religion. Yes, it's discrimination, but I will not support the homosexual movement if it is against my religion... I believe strongly in my faith.

[Spirited Away]

^ In my opinion, love is sometimes as much "choice" as breathing. How can you stop yourself from falling in love with someone? Like holding your breath, you can probably keep it up for more than a minute but if you want to live, you better suck some air. I think love is as inevitable when you are exposed to a person who is your ideal (whether consciously or unconsciously). I suppose you can try to resist it, but once you starting resisting that feeling, then it's too late because you are already in love.

Then, once you are in love, casting that love away is even more impossible, to me that is. I believe that if a person can choose to be in love or be out of love, then his/her love is not true.

Yes, I'm off-topic again, but you know me. Your "love is choice" just caught my eyes

[AngelinaTaylor]

^ Totally agree 100%.

Uronacid, I must've missed the "Love is choice" part of your reply.

Please tell me that you're kidding. You're kidding, right? Please be. You must be. So you really just "chose" to fall in love with Holly? Don't give me that, because it's not true.

If you truly believe that, then, my friend, you've never been in love. Trust me, it's not a choice. Do you think I enjoy being in love with someone I can never be with? No, I hate it, and I curse it every day but it doesn't go away. I can't make it go away. I don't want to be in love, but there's nothing I can do.

It's not a damn choice. Because really, why would I choose to go through all that heartbreak while being in love? I'm sorry, I had to comment on that.

[*Uronacid*]

^ Totally agree 100%.

Uronacid, I must've missed the "Love is choice" part of your reply.

Please tell me that you're kidding. You're kidding, right? Please be. You must be. So you really just "chose" to fall in love with Holly? Don't give me that, because it's not true.

If you truly believe that, then, my friend, you've never been in love. Trust me, it's not a choice. Do you think I enjoy being in love with someone I can never be with? No, I hate it, and I curse it every day but it doesn't go away. I can't make it go away. I don't want to be in love, but there's nothing I can do.

It's not a damn choice. Because really, why would I choose to go through all that heartbreak while being in love? I'm sorry, I had to comment on that.

You are right to a certain extent, but do you truely expect to have on fire feelings of love every second that you're in a relationship. It doesn't work that way. Yes, I did fall in love with Holly and it was a natrual thing, but that wasn't the choice. Love becomes a choice when you have to make sacrifices for that person. When you have to do what's best for that person, and it's difficult. Like when you told Dan about what was going on. That was a choice. You were loving him when you did that. You may not realize it, but you were. Love isn't just this happy thing that you feel. Love is an action, Love is a sacrifice, and at times you feel it.

Ultimate Form of Love:
Laying down your life for someone else. (Tell me that isn't a choice.)

[AngelinaTaylor]

^ Oh ok, that makes more sense.

[*Uronacid*]

Now do you understand... love is the scariest most beautiful thing in the world... to truley be in love with someone... it's really scarey... >.> so off topic

[Spirited Away]

You are right to a certain extent, but do you truely expect to have on fire feelings of love every second that you're in a relationship. It doesn't work that way. Yes, I did fall in love with Holly and it was a natrual thing, but that wasn't the choice. Love becomes a choice when you have to make sacrifices for that person. When you have to do what's best for that person, and it's difficult. Like when you told Dan about what was going on. That was a choice. You were loving him when you did that. You may not realize it, but you were. Love isn't just this happy thing that you feel. Love is an action, Love is a sacrifice, and at times you feel it.

Ultimate Form of Love:
Laying down your life for someone else. (Tell me that isn't a choice.)

All right, so you mean to say that to fall in love isn't the choice but the things you do for your partner while in love are choices? So then for homosexuals to fall in love, is also a "natural thing", but their choice to marry would be unnatural, right?

So back to your point that "Love is a choice after all, and shouldn't we allow homsexuals to make the choice... -_-" We should not have anything to do with "allowing" homosexuals the choice to fall in love. I just want to understand clearly what you meant by that.

Also, an ultimate form of love may be laying your life down for the one you love, but because you truly love him/her, wouldn't that "choice" be a natural one? And if you, or your partner, choose NOT to make sacrifices in your relationship, then is it really love? I doubt it; that would be only an illusion.

[Special_Kx321]

im for it.
1. because if you truly love someone then go for it.
2. its not hurting you is it?
3. there choice not yours/thier life not yuors.

although one reason to be agaist is, statistically its more common for gay people to have HIV/AIDS.
but then again, straight people could too.

also
"Cause if thats how God made u then they should allow it, cause u cant help it."
personally i dont think "god" made them that way.
i think it was thier choice.
cause lets say "god" didnt exist, then it would be thier choice wouldnt?

[illriginal]

I'm not for it... and I have a question, if America is supposed to be the Christian nation... then why are gay marriages happening?

I think gays make it a choice but some dont... they're just born gay and there's also a scientific discovery about "genes" of gays... but I cannot call it a fact, I'm not finding anything legit on it right now, but it was in NYTimes and Washington Post.

[*I Shot JFK*]

^ Because America is NOT supposed to be a Christian nation. Apparently you've spent so much time debunking the Bible that you've neglected to read the Constitution. Prioritize.

[*Zatanna*]

^ That is very true, and too often misconceived.

This is an older article, but one I feel worth reading.
Here's a portion of the article:

It is hard to believe that George Bush has ever read the works of George Orwell, but he seems, somehow, to have grasped a few Orwellian precepts. The lesson the President has learned best--and certainly the one that has been the most useful to him--is the axiom that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. One of his Administration's current favorites is the whopper about America having been founded on Christian principles. Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent.

Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.

From the article " Our Godless Constitution," taken from The Nation.

Although I do not think Bush is at all an authority nor does he appear to have ever internalized The Constitution, he is one that has obviously conveyed a very misguided message - not only to our nation, but to the world.

Relating this to the topic of gay marriages, I think it it is imprudent to make the assumption that same-sex marriages shouldn't be allowed because our nation is founded on the principles of Christianity (when clearly, many historic observations point to the contrary, INCLUDING The Consitution itself). Hence, any argument that would support gay marriage as being Anti-American based on that assumption is false and invalid.

[BonneVache]

First off, there is a differnce between gay marriage, civil unions, and domestic partnerships. All of which offer differnt things to those involved.

While gay marriage in a sense would be a nationally recognized inisituion that would offer all the benifits of being married on the national level. Civil unions & domestic partnerships are all on a state by state basis. Meaning, federal level benifits would be lost. The result is a legal sink hole. If you're in a civil union in one state, how would you file tax returns? How would you mark goverment forms? Single? Married? Do you pay tax on your partners health insurance.

The biggest issue would be in the case of death. If you're in a partnership for a long time you'd probably have a house, car (maybe two), just like any heterosexual couple. If for whatever reason one partner was to die. The other would have to pay taxes on their house, cars, anything that was under the others name. Something a heterosexual, married, couple wouldn't have to worry about.

And what about children? If a lesbian was to have a baby her partner couldn't be considered her mother without going through long, and expensive, legal procedures in order to gain parenthood of the child. The couple would also have to be visited by a social worked to make sure the partner is a fit parent.

The entire system is in disarray. Making legal matters the main problem. To me as a gay person that is much more important than being able to say "I'm married", I want to be protected against such issues arrising.

[Comptine]

^agreed with everything said.

also, if gay marriages are made legal, that's a huge justification for homosexual couples. so far by barring same sex marriages, it's ostersizes homosexual couples by denying them rights that other heterosexual citizens have. by making same sex marriages, it's another landmark step towards embracing the homosexuals and treating them like everyone else. it's acknowledging that even though their sexual orientation is different they are still nevertheless, humans and do not deserve to be treated differently.

[*x1227x*]

^agreed.

you should also not be judged by your sexual orientation. everyone should be equal, and no one should be treated differently because they are bisexual, lesbian, or gay. it's they're choice in life. it's your decision, and if you choose to not be straight, then you should be happy for them. as long as they're happy, they should be aloud to do as they please.