"under God", should it be taken out?? Options

[NoSex]

and if the founding fathers put it there, then it should deserve to stay

So, if it wasn't put there by the founding fathers, it shouldn't deserve to stay?

[Oh, also. Please look here . It is a previous post in this thread that I made. It is a quick overview of some of the history that you, as well as most others in this thread, consistently seem to get wrong. Check it out.]

[deealiganga]

i say respect it cause it was placed by them.

[NoSex]

i say respect it cause it was placed by them.

I love how you obviously did not read what I asked you to.
http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...p;#entry1772248
Click the link. Read the post.

1. It wasn't placed by "them."
2. Why should we respect it simply because someone established it?
3. Several of our founding fathers had slaves (a few even had sex with them!), should we respect that?
4. Government should be about reasonable change. If we were to simply respect and keep everything which was originally established, we would have never advanced as much as we have as a government and a soceity.

[deealiganga]

I love how you obviously did not read what I asked you to.
http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...p;#entry1772248
Click the link. Read the post.
2. Why should we respect it simply because someone established it?

because they were the people that gave our country our independence. look at how our country is now, i wouldnt have it any other way. so respect the founding fathers of this country, cause without them, america wouldnt be the america it is now, regardless if you agree with them or not. oh and i dont have to read no stupid ass post for me to have my own opinion on a matter.

[NoSex]

because they were the people that gave our country our independence. look at how our country is now, i wouldnt have it any other way. so respect the founding fathers of this country, cause without them, america wouldnt be the america it is now, regardless if you agree with them or not. oh and i dont have to read no stupid ass post for me to have my own opinion on a matter.

Alright. Your history is way off kid. The founding fathers had nothing to do with the pledge, let alone the much later addition of the words "under God." You are arguing a fallacious argument anyways, but even worse, you are arguing from false pretense. If you get your facts wrong, you aren't going to be very convincing. I asked you to read the post so you could learn something, and we could have a meaningful discussion. Clearly, you have no desire to do either.

1. Politicians didn't give our country independence. The people did.
2. Our country has been through many hardships, and has changed an enourmous amount since our founding. Many of these changes were for the better. Your argument seems to imply that change is bad. Are you not suggesting that we should keep something simply because it was established during our founding? Do you understand the implications this has for things like civil rights, equality, and women's suffrage?
3. I respect, to a degree, several of our founding fathers. Some of them I have little to no respect for, and should not have to, as they were pretty awful human beings.
4. My question was why should we respect something simply because it was established by an individual? You can not demand that we respect something, despite its nature or content, simply becaue a respectable man established it. That's a fallacious argument.
5. This is a debate thread. We are here to debate issues, not simply declare our opinions. That isn't the purpose of this forum. This means actual discussion, which tends to require a bit of reading. This means that you have to justify your position with reason, logic, and rationality. This means you have to recognize and attempt to refute (or concede) opposing positions. This step requires that you read that "stupid ass post."

[Paradox of Life]

because they were the people that gave our country our independence. look at how our country is now, i wouldnt have it any other way. so respect the founding fathers of this country, cause without them, america wouldnt be the america it is now, regardless if you agree with them or not. oh and i dont have to read no stupid ass post for me to have my own opinion on a matter.

This is a debate forum which means you need to be somewhat civilized, informed and intelligent in your responses. This is a verbal warning.

[*I Shot JFK*]

^ katt, can i have permission to tell her she's stupid? because i kinda wanna do that...

[kimmytree]

I say no. We should leave it how it is. Think about it, at least 90% of the people in the U.S. believe in a God. Whether your a Christian, Jew, Catholic, ect.

[*I Shot JFK*]

yes, they do.

so?

[forza]

I say no. We should leave it how it is. Think about it, at least 90% of the people in the U.S. believe in a God. Whether your a Christian, Jew, Catholic, ect.

Your reasoning is errant in that this country was founded on the principle that the 10% of people who don't believe in a God are just as important as the 90% of people who do.

[femmefatale4160]

If you don't like it, don't say it. Roughly 87% of the people in this country believe in God. So what's the problem? If you're atheistic, then just ignore it. It's not like you're all being forced to get down on your knees and pray to Jesus.

[*I Shot JFK*]

^ and what if you want to be proud of a country which seperates itself from a specific religion, like, oh, say, the United States is supposed to?

[femmefatale4160]

^ and what if you want to be proud of a country which seperates itself from a specific religion, like, oh, say, the United States is supposed to?

But a God-like figure isn't part of just one religion. There are hundreds of religions which include god(s). Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, cretain sects of Buddhism...the list goes on and on. So if you're going to use THAT argument, then the US is separated from a specific religion.

[*I Shot JFK*]

fine, fine.

but it is stll irrelevant really, considering that the Us advertises not only freedom from a specific religion, but freedom from all religion. you would obviously concede then how it is entirely hypocritical to include that phrase in a pledge in a secular society.

[femmefatale4160]

Yes, I see your point. But the phrase still doesn't bother me in the least.

[*I Shot JFK*]

whether or not it bothers you is irrelevant. the question is whether or no tit should be there, and the answer is certainly no.

[femmefatale4160]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I disagree.

[*I Shot JFK*]

we're both entitled to our opinion. it doesnt 'bother' me either, particularly, being as i dont live in america and have no reaason to care what is in the pledge.

but that FACT is that it is contradictory, and as such should be removed. and facts are what matter in a debate

[femmefatale4160]

It is contradictory. It should never have been used in the first place. Now this whole thing has blown up and no matter what the government decides, people will be upset.

So where DO you live?

[marzipan]

he lives in england.

and so this post isn't entirely useless...

i'm not exactly sure whether or not we should keep it in there. Although i'm Christian, we not one nation under God because not everyone in the United States is a Christian. If you're not Christian, why should you say the phrase "under God"? like James said, America is entitled to freedom of religion, so we should have the freedom to say what we want.

[femmefatale4160]

i'm not exactly sure whether or not we should keep it in there. Although i'm Christian, we not one nation under God because not everyone in the United States is a Christian. If you're not Christian, why should you say the phrase "under God"? like James said, America is entitled to freedom of religion, so we should have the freedom to say what we want.

I would agree. My point is, though, that if those words are removed from the pledge, millions more people will be upset than there currently are.

[marzipan]

i just feel that the pledge doesn't represent everyone in the U.S. because we're not all Christian.

Although, being a Christian, I want the phrase in there. But at the same time, I don't think it's very fair for the non-Christians.

[femmefatale4160]

I know. But this is a very sticky situation.

[Joss-eh-lime]

do high schools still say the pledge? instead of dealing with the people that refuse to say "under God" we just dont say it at all.. i really dont think the pledge is all that important..

[femmefatale4160]

My school still says the pledge, yes.