"under God", should it be taken out?? Options

[NoSex]

But something for those who want the phrase kept in to consider: (from religioustolerance.org)
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Jewish student. You have the choice of
  1. Reciting a pledge that an atheist wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, without God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
  2. Refusing to recite it, and leaving yourself open to being belittled, harassed, insulted, assaulted, etc.
Would you repeat all the words? Would you skip over the phrase "without God?" Would it make you feel comfortable about being an American?
Likewise, what if you had to say "under Allah"? "under the God and Goddess"? Would you feel like your religious freedom was being violated?
I know I would. Reading this made me see the other side a lot more clearly.

Nice thought experiment. Also, very sorry for the grammatical errors in my previous post as they are numerous. I was very tired. Still am.

[Levy2k6]

sorry for being so ignorant, didn't feel like reading the whole thread..

i don't really see a big problem...

There are two types of religions: Universalizing and Ethnic

Universal religions are Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and small others like Sikhism and Baha'i

Ethic religions are Hinduism, and alot of small ones like Confucianism, Daoism, Shintoism, Judaism and Animism..

All these branches have dominations and then secs.... so w/e. those are the big ones.

as far as i'm concerned.. they all have gods.. except the non-religions people.... everybody's religion's "leader" translate to a god.

Christians believe in a god (and then whatever their domination is), Islam means submission to the will of God, and Buddhism has its Four Noble Truths.

I'd go on with different religions but this is becoming a school lesson....

well anyways.. alll these religions are all over the world.

but yeah, Religion is all around us.. we all have gods and stuff.. or the word for there ruler translates to god so what's the problem? Religion has migrated all over this country and shaped the landscape around it.

anyways.. ignore what everything i just said, it was pointless....

but let's say we take off "Under God" from the pledge since it's religious or w/e the excuse it.. SHOULD WE RENAME CITIES LIKE SAN FRANCISCO, CHAPEL HILL , SAN DIEGO and etc because they have religious things to them??? idk... lol. w/e

[*disco infiltrator*]

^ Oh but wow guess what!

1) This is going to be your verbal warning for blantantly disregarding the rules of the Debate forum, with apparent full information on said rules. You knew you didn't read the thread.

2) Believe it or not, there are some people that aren't religious or believe in multiple Gods or their God isn't called "God". ! Yes, different people, and some live in this country too! Even me! Oh wow.

3) Those are names of places, not influencing anyone's belief system or trying to make them think differently than they do. It's not like San Francisco is a "Christian" city and Chicago isn't. That's a pretty far-fetched example, in my opinion.

Oh, and I don't know if I'd really count Confucianism as a religion persay. It's more of a way of life, or foundation of beliefs. Confucianism doesn't madate that you worship anyone or anything. It's based on philosophy, not theology. And...I don't know if I'd consider Judaism a small religion. That's pretty damn big. That religion actually does have its own country founded on it.

And..Bhuddism doesn't really worship a God; rather, follows the teachings of their religious leader. Shintoism and Daoism are not monotheistic religions either, so saying "under God", as in singular, could turn out to be offensive.

People are still forgetting why, and when, "under God" was put into the pledge in the first place. It really was not put in there for religion at all - it was simply implemented to distinguish our country from a Communist country, where no religion was allowed except Atheism.

That point previously made before is a very good one as well. What if the tables were turned? What if this was an Atheist country, and everything that mentions God or Christianity now all pointed towards Atheism instead?

[LordAwesome]

jesus died for everyone but you. under god was added in a time of war as something for people to get behind and unify our nation. the pledge in itself is the propogation of the socialist agenda. it was written to sell more flags, and first recited with the straight arm salute. yep our people resembled hitler's youth while reciting the pledge of aliegence. Socialism was actualy really popular here before the war. after a few changes and some forgetting the pledge has become the dogmatic foolis thing it is today. The whole thing is the illegitamate bastard child of the now deceased socialist movement, adopted by modern society to get us all used to doing something we don't understand every morning JUST BECAUSE!!

BRAVO

[Jeng]

uhm i dont think so because you dont actually have to say it, its your right and decision if you want to say the pledge or not. in my 1st period class, we all just stand and some people dont and some people do say it.

[sheridan_whitesi...]

jesus died for everyone but you.

Wow. Someone really understands the teachings of Christ.

Dolt.

[Levy2k6]

^ Oh but wow guess what!

1) This is going to be your verbal warning for blantantly disregarding the rules of the Debate forum, with apparent full information on said rules. You knew you didn't read the thread.

2) Believe it or not, there are some people that aren't religious or believe in multiple Gods or their God isn't called "God". ! Yes, different people, and some live in this country too! Even me! Oh wow.

3) Those are names of places, not influencing anyone's belief system or trying to make them think differently than they do. It's not like San Francisco is a "Christian" city and Chicago isn't. That's a pretty far-fetched example, in my opinion.

Oh, and I don't know if I'd really count Confucianism as a religion persay. It's more of a way of life, or foundation of beliefs. Confucianism doesn't madate that you worship anyone or anything. It's based on philosophy, not theology. And...I don't know if I'd consider Judaism a small religion. That's pretty damn big. That religion actually does have its own country founded on it.

And..Bhuddism doesn't really worship a God; rather, follows the teachings of their religious leader. Shintoism and Daoism are not monotheistic religions either, so saying "under God", as in singular, could turn out to be offensive.

People are still forgetting why, and when, "under God" was put into the pledge in the first place. It really was not put in there for religion at all - it was simply implemented to distinguish our country from a Communist country, where no religion was allowed except Atheism.

That point previously made before is a very good one as well. What if the tables were turned? What if this was an Atheist country, and everything that mentions God or Christianity now all pointed towards Atheism instead?

well i'm sorry for reading what i learned in the Religion chapter of Human Geography AP... maybe that 90 on that AP test didnt mean anything...

anyways.. i was trying to point out that religion has influenced our country w/ examples of place names...

i never said Judaism was a small religion, i said it was a Ethnic religion.. not Universal. i'm not gonna explain what those mean.. w/e.

[Mulder]

i never said Judaism was a small religion, i said it was a Ethnic religion.. not Universal. i'm not gonna explain what those mean.. w/e.

but it IS universal.

go to the czech republic. russia. hungary. even france.

you'll find a substantial jewish population.

the sephardic jewish community by itself is pretty damn big. sephardic jews are usually in eurasia.


but anyways, back to the topic.

this country was founded by the Separatists who wanted to be able to practice their religious beliefs. they were being persecuted for them in England.

but..the country was offically founded about...180 years later. and it wasnt founded as a christian nation.

and yea, i know people have already said this.
there really isnt anything else to say.

[*disco infiltrator*]

I really don't care what you got on a test; you're saying things that are wrong.

Ethic religions are Hinduism, and alot of small ones like Confucianism, Daoism, Shintoism, Judaism and Animism..

Uhhhhhhhh.....
Maybe if you don't mean something, you shouldn't say it.

Either way, your point is invalid, seeing as even though a lot of religions are monotheistic and it could apply to them, there are a lot who are polytheistic or people who don't believe in any deity at all; all of which live in this country and are contributers to society.

[*disco infiltrator*]

BUMPBUMPBUMP.

Come on, someone reply! I was all revved up and stuff!

[Levy2k6]

okay i guess I have to explain..

"Universalizing religions attempt to be global, to appeal to all people, wherever they may live in the world, not just to those of one culture or location.

An Ethnic religion appeals primarly to one group of people living in one place."
-James M. Rubenstein.

Jews are ethnic religion because of the place of where they are clustered based on the lands bordering the mediterrian sea.... There kind has decreased in numbers and can be found in the U.S. in specific areas... Jews play a substantial role in the western hemisphere as a number of its adherents would suggest, because two of the three main universalizing religions find roots in Judaism.

10percent of the world's 14 million Jews live in Europe, compared to 90 percent a century ago... it is the most spread out ethnic religion because they are usually found more in clusters...

but anyways. the truth reason why Judaism is classified as ethnic, rather than universalizing, is because its major holidays are based on events in the agricultural calendar of the region's homeland in present-day Israel.

Universalizing relgions calendars commemorate events in the founder's life. Christians in particular assosiate their holidays with seasonal variations in the calendar, but climate and agriculture cycle are not central to the litugy and rituals.

All religions

[Mulder]

but anyways. the truth reason why Judaism is classified as ethnic, rather than universalizing, is because its major holidays are based on events in the agricultural calendar of the region's homeland in present-day Israel.

err..not so much.

hannukah is based off a story of the macabees i believe...

rosh hashana is the jewish new year.

yom kippur is a day to repent for your sins.

need i go on?

[Levy2k6]

need i go on?

they come in autumn.

there three most important holidays (other than Rosh Hashnah and Yom Kippur) are more closely based on agricultural cycle. Sukkot celebrates the final gathering of fruits for the yera, and prayers, especially for rain, are offered to success in the upcoming agricultural year.
Pesach (Passover) derives from traditional agricultural practices in which farmers offered God the first fruits of the new spring harvest and herders sacrified a young animal at the time when cows began to calve.
Shavuot (Feast f Weeks) comes at the end of the grain harvest.

These holidays later ragained imprtance because they also commemorate events in the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, as recounted in the Old Testament. Pesach recalled the liberation of Jews from slavery in Egypt and the miracle of their successful flight under the leadership of Moses. That's one example, should i say more?

Living in America, We use the Solar calendar.. but if you go to Israel where jews are the majority, they use a lunar calendar of 29 days, using the moon has a new month. The lunar calendar is only 29 days long, so a lunar year of about 350 days quickly becaues out of step with the agricultural season. They add an extra month every seven out of 19 years so that its principal holidays are celebrated in the same season each year.

just accept it, Judaism is a ETHNIC religion. google it!

<<< found best results when typed " judaism ethnic universalizing religion"

[*disco infiltrator*]

So are you going to reply to what I said, too, or just leave it with no counterargument?

[uLoVeMikeRoch]

^ Oh but wow guess what!

Oh, and I don't know if I'd really count Confucianism as a religion persay. It's more of a way of life, or foundation of beliefs. Confucianism doesn't madate that you worship anyone or anything. It's based on philosophy, not theology. And...I don't know if I'd consider Judaism a small religion. That's pretty damn big. That religion actually does have its own country founded on it.

And..Bhuddism doesn't really worship a God; rather, follows the teachings of their religious leader. Shintoism and Daoism are not monotheistic religions either, so saying "under God", as in singular, could turn out to be offensive.

You spelled Buddhisim wrong. And no, it doesn't worship a god at all. Buddhism is also a way of life if you think about it. It's about following the teachings of Buddha, and Buddha isn't a god.

I agree with you on the shintoism and the Daoism part too.

[Spirited Away]

And no, it doesn't worship a god at all. Buddhism is also a way of life if you think about it. It's about following the teachings of Buddha, and Buddha isn't a god.

well actually, there are at least two main branches of Buddhism and at least one of them does worship gods and goddesses. In fact, my grandmother's old home had a shrine dedicated to a goddess my parents call "Quan The Am" or "Quan Am"—goddess of Mercy. However, it is understood by all true Buddhists that so long as a person lives with sincerity, compassion and without greed, there isn't a need for worship because it does not help one to reach Nirvana. As I've said, because of the different branches, some followers do perceive the Buddhas as gods or goddesses. In my own opinion though, they are not gods nor goddesses. They are more like spiritual mentors. =)

[*disco infiltrator*]

You spelled Buddhisim wrong. And no, it doesn't worship a god at all. Buddhism is also a way of life if you think about it. It's about following the teachings of Buddha, and Buddha isn't a god.

I agree with you on the shintoism and the Daoism part too.

So did you only quote me to correct my spelling? Because I said that Buddhists don't worship a God; you didn't have to tell me that.

[illumineering]

You spelled Buddhisim wrong.

Buddhism not Buddhisim. You spelled Buddhism wrong.

[Mulder]

Buddhism not Buddhisim.  You spelled Buddhism wrong.

wow. can we stop correcting people's spelling now?

[illumineering]

wow. can we stop correcting people's spelling now?

That was the primary point of the post I was quoting. Don't complain to me. When someone is correcting another who is also guilty of the same mistake, it is a valid point.

[broken inside]

nope. you dont have to say the pledge. all you have to do is stand up. respect your country.

But what if I want to support America and not god?

[n_Oodles]

I think they should keep it. If you don't believe in God, you don't have to say it. No matter what they do, someone is going to be upset. They should just keep it the same.

[deealiganga]

i say it stays, the united states was first established as an independent colony for the right to practice free religion on the first place. and if you dont believe in God, atleast acknowledge that religion was a pilar in building our great nation

[*I Shot JFK*]

i say it stays, the united states was first established as an independent colony for the right to practice free religion on the first place. and if you dont believe in God, atleast acknowledge that religion was a pilar in building our great nation

that is sumpremely irrelevant.

particularly when you consider that the phrase 'under god' has little or nothing to do with the founding of the country in this context, or even the orgin of the pledge, but wa sdded later.

and furthermore, freedm of religion includes freedom from religious oppression, and therefore the right not to have theistic viewws forced on you.

[deealiganga]

yea that phrase "under God" has nothing to do about the founding about the country, but it was put there by the founding fathers for a reason, a nation that started off as a colony looking from religious independance from England, and if the founding fathers put it there, then it should deserve to stay, for they made extreme sacrifiices so we can have America the way it is today. if you dont like it , or believe in it, atleast respect it.