The Problem of Free Will, A Theological Problem. Options

[NoSex]

Alright, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the theological Problem of Free Will. So, under common christian theolgy, God is described as being all-knowing (omniscient) and all powerful (omnipotent). Men are also described as having free will. This is at the heart of the reality of theological fatalism. Solving this issue is vital to christian theology as it becomes an inherent contradiction as well as threatening to the christian conception of salvation and damnation.

I hold that God's infallible foreknowledge makes impossible man's free will. If god knows the future, how can we choose our own path?

Discuss.

[flc]

I agree with you.

I guess people could argue that the idea behind free will is that YOU yourself make it, that there is no one else there making your decisions. They could say that just because God knows what will happen, he isn't telling you what to do.

[sadolakced acid]

we choose the path.

god ordains the destiny.

a paper plane and a lead weight both will reach the ground, they just go different paths.

[racoons > you]

we choose the path.

god ordains the destiny.

a paper plane and a lead weight both will reach the ground, they just go different paths.

agreed.

if god knows im going to cambridge, i can get thier etierh via the a14 or the a1.

*shrugs*

[*disco infiltrator*]

But wouldn't God know how you're going to get there because he would know what you're about to experience and what will happen on the way there?

[sadolakced acid]

he does to the extent that you know a ball will get to the ground by way of falling.

and since god created all humans and thier personalities, he has ordained which choices each will make.

so yes.

[vash1530]

^that contradicts free will because it implies a set path for which god already knows ur gonna take, meaning there is no other path for u...

[racoons > you]

oh i dont know...

if god is omnipotent, he can stop himself being omniscient, and therefore humans can choose their own destiny

[NoSex]

oh i dont know...

if god is omnipotent, he can stop himself being omniscient, and therefore humans can choose their own destiny

But then he would no longer be omniscient, and no longer God. So, unless God has the power (well, he is supposed to be omnipotent?) to make himself not God, then no. That wouldn't exactly work.

Isn't it fun to push the conception of a christian God. The further you dive into it, the more and more incoherent it seems to become. At the end of a discussion, you might find yourself with a simply meaningless web of incompatible properties and verbalistic nonsense.

The question still remains, "How can we have free will, if God has ultimate and absolute foreknowledge?"

[racoons > you]

^
we cant.. im just playing with ideas.

i dunno... just because he turns off an aspec tof himself, doesnt mean it isnt still there... he is omniscient, he just chooses, through hi somnipotence, not to use it

[*disco infiltrator*]

But how could he not use it? If "everything happens according to God's plan", how could he not be using his omniscience? If you know something, there's no way you can't...use it. You know it anyway. You can't make yourself forget.

[Paradox of Life]

The question still remains, "How can we have free will, if God has ultimate and absolute foreknowledge?"

Wow, I never thought of this and it's a really good point to bring up.

When I think of something to say in response to this question, I just think of destiny. If God has 'ultimate and absolute foreknowledge', I would think he'd see the future as ultimate and absolute, like the big picture. Man has free will to an extent, but ultimately it will end up a certain way. Like all the little battles and accidents and poor decisions made during the Civil War and The Revolutionary War all led up to the United States and its economic and social stability now and that's what was destined for it. And God could foresee that and by destiny, Man achieved this goal. Well, what if everyone decided not to fulfill this goal? That's not possible because one ignorant mind really can't change a million other minds. It's like when you see hundreds of fish swimming down a river by current, you know their destination, but it's their free will to swim that way. And if one decides to swim backwards, uh, oh well.

I hope that's what you're talking about or I'll just have been babbling for nothing.

[*mipadi*]

When I think of something to say in response to this question, I just think of destiny. If God has 'ultimate and absolute foreknowledge', I would think he'd see the future as ultimate and absolute, like the big picture. Man has free will to an extent, but ultimately it will end up a certain way. Like all the little battles and accidents and poor decisions made during the Civil War and The Revolutionary War all led up to the United States and its economic and social stability now and that's what was destined for it.

But what's the cutoff, then? If God can see a hundred years into the future, surely he can see a month, or a week, or a day or an hour or even ten seconds, can't he?

[oXMuhNirvanaXo]

ok .. if a bird is flying south and the bird wants to fly south.. it will fly south... follow with me here... so.. if God knows that there is a big tree about 2 inces away from the bird .. god knows the bird is going to hit the tree .. but the bird has a chance to change its mind.. ( free will ) So if the bird hits the tree it is the birds own falt.. it could have gone north.


( free will part = north or south )
-_-

[*CrackedRearView*]

ok .. if a bird is flying south and the bird wants to fly south.. it will fly south... follow with me here... so.. if God knows that there is a big tree about 2 inces away from the bird .. god knows the bird is going to hit the tree .. but the bird has a chance to change its mind.. ( free will ) So if the bird hits the tree it is the birds own falt.. it could have gone north.
( free will part = north or south )
-_-

Yet, God knows the bird is going to smack the tree because He knows everything, which sparks the question of how on earth we have free will if God knows everything we're going to do...

[sadolakced acid]

which is why god, as defined to be omnipotent and allowing of free will and all that other stuff, cannot exist.

[vash1530]

Random question to Acid Bath Slayer: Have you read Friederich Nietzche and, if so, do u agree with his opinions on religion and nihilism?

[NoSex]

Random question to Acid Bath Slayer: Have you read Friederich Nietzche and, if so, do u agree with his opinions on religion and nihilism?

I have read some Nietzsche (Anti-Christ). I could talk about some of his views for some time as alot of them are very interesting. But, when it comes to Nietzsche, I like alot of his meta-ethical ideas more than his views towards religion or what he saw as the impending nihilism. When it came to his religious convictions, it seemed to have alot more to do with the Church ignoring the true "Jesus," and becoming a slave morality which was served to control and corrupt. I do not exactly disagree, not to say that I agree. Also, impending nihilism hasn't seemed to kick in yet, and no matter how much, "God is dead," religion lives on. So, he was clearly wrong about alot of things concerning the not-so-distant developments of western society. But, I do like Nietzche for the most part.

[racoons > you]

But how could he not use it? If "everything happens according to God's plan", how could he not be using his omniscience? If you know something, there's no way you can't...use it. You know it anyway. You can't make yourself forget.

yes you can. you're omnipotent.

and if you do, you arent omniscient.

and if you cant, you arent omnipotent.

ergo, no god.

[*CrackedRearView*]

^ Incorrect. There may be a God, but we simply don't have free will.

[NoSex]

^ Incorrect. There may be a God, but we simply don't have free will.

Or, there may be a god but he isn't Omnipotent.
Or, he isn't omniscient.
Or, we don't have free will.
Or, he isn't any of these things.
Or, he simply does not exist.

All we can do, on an analytical level, is disprove specific definitions of a God. For example, the common Christian God who gives man free will, yet holds his omnipotence and omniscience.
So, we can prove the negative existential proposition, but it holds, just as any other proof, to basic epistemological standards.

[sadolakced acid]

^ Incorrect. There may be a God, but we simply don't have free will.

then there is no god, as god's power comes from people freely choosing him over the devil.

[vash1530]

I have read some Nietzsche (Anti-Christ). I could talk about some of his views for some time as alot of them are very interesting. But, when it comes to Nietzsche, I like alot of his meta-ethical ideas more than his views towards religion or what he saw as the impending nihilism. When it came to his religious convictions, it seemed to have alot more to do with the Church ignoring the true "Jesus," and becoming a slave morality which was served to control and corrupt. I do not exactly disagree, not to say that I agree. Also, impending nihilism hasn't seemed to kick in yet, and no matter how much, "God is dead," religion lives on. So, he was clearly wrong about alot of things concerning the not-so-distant developments of western society. But, I do like Nietzche for the most part.

thankyou. now i have a better idea of where ur coming from. im a nihilist in the sense that:

Nihilism as a philosophical position argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally believe all of the following: God doesn't exist, traditional morality is false, and secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has no meaning, and no action is preferable to any other.

ibelieve in all parts of this statement except the latter.

[twin__cinema]

Oh gosh... I used to have a really good explaination in my head for this when I was in my Philosphy of Religion class last fall. Hmmm. I'll try to explain best I can.

I myself am not a believer in "God", but here's a theory:
If "God" is indeed truely what is claimed, he IS omniscient. I don't think that really means that he knows exactly what you're going to do, with free will being involved. Think of it as a branching path. He can foresee all possibilities. Let's say you're walking down a path, and it forks into three smaller ones. God is fully aware of all of them. He provides free will, and allows you to choose. Every path leads you to a different life, filled with other choices. Perhaps he can't see what will happen in the far off future exactly, but only the possibilities and what comes with every choice.


I also read The Anti-Christ (Most of it, anyway. Just what I was required for my class). My opinion on Friedrich Nietzsche isn't exactly positive, nor is it negative. To me, Mr. Nietzsche seems more like an angry teenager in his mom's basement proclaiming how much everything sucks (who was actually a hermit living in the moutains somewhere in Europe. Same environment, really). If anything, he sounds like a total ignoramous ranting about everything under the sun. Once you kind of get to know his background, you understand him more. He isn't ignorant, but his father was a Lutheran Pastor, who died when Nietzsche was only 7. Like in many families, he was expected to follow in his father's footsteps because he was the oldest son. So, he followed by going to school to also become a Pastor. He soon dropped out and became an uber Atheist. Basically, he experienced Christianity from the inside out, so to speak. And he died of The Clap.

That's my little rundown on our friend Friedrich, for those who are ignorant. :]

When it came to his religious convictions, it seemed to have alot more to do with the Church ignoring the true "Jesus," and becoming a slave morality which was served to control and corrupt. I do not exactly disagree, not to say that I agree.

For the most part, he thought Jesus was a pretty dandy fellow. I don't think he really had anything against him, but it was more the religion aspect that he was against. He believed all Christians were "sheep", and going against typical human nature. Christianity is the exact opposite of what our nature is, and as humans, we are more aggressive, and we are for the most part, skeptics. People don't want to shut up and listen to someone tell them what to believe, submit, and have all these ideologies crammed into their craniums. No, that's not how we are. Religion is against what we are in every sense.

I don't know if I'd say slave "morality", but I think he's saying religion is a slave-like corruption of the mind and spirit. Religion forces you to submit to "faith", rather than something such as Secular Humanism (would that be considered a religion? I know most Secular Humanists are nontheists, but I don't know). Hmm.

Nietzsche is also a skeptic of the leaders of religions. He believes they are among the worst people on this planet. According to my philosophy teacher, Nietzche would rather chill with a child molester than the Pope any day. Haha. Anyway. He was a firm believer that most "higher ups"/teachers of religion abused their power to get ahead in the world, and anyone who would follow them are basically, well, their bitches. If a priest said to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid, the followers would be forced to do so, because they are "slaves to their faith".

Also, impending nihilism hasn't seemed to kick in yet, and no matter how much, "God is dead," religion lives on.

I don't really see why these two points are connected. Many people have Nihilistic views, so I wouldn't say it hasn't kicked in yet.

And the "God is dead" theory is pretty stupid. In order to free ourselves from religion, we must "kill God"? That doesn't seem very plausable. Maybe in our minds, we can "kill God" in a non-literal sense, but if he does in fact exist, we can't just erase him from our minds and call the guy dead. Nietzsche, you silly douche.

So, he was clearly wrong about alot of things concerning the not-so-distant developments of western society.

Not really. He was pretty correct on the fact that Western religion is based on Christanity, and is pretty closed minded to any other beliefs/faiths.

Hmm. My brain is soup. You'll hear more from me later.

[*mipadi*]

And the "God is dead" theory is pretty stupid. In order to free ourselves from religion, we must "kill God"? That doesn't seem very plausable. Maybe in our minds, we can "kill God" in a non-literal sense, but if he does in fact exist, we can't just erase him from our minds and call the guy dead. Nietzsche, you silly douche.
Not really. He was pretty correct on the fact that Western religion is based on Christanity, and is pretty closed minded to any other beliefs/faiths.

But Nietzsche didn't literally believe God was dead, nor did he literally believe anyone had killed Him or would kill Him. His statement merely means that the traditional concept of a god is no longer valid in today's world, or, more to the point, no one truly adheres to the concept anymore; meaning that no one really believes that there is an all-powerful god who created heaven and earth and directs us in our ways. Some people may buy into some religious concepts, and some people may pay lip service to a god, but no one truly follows the traditional concept of a divine being.