Why can't people learn, to let things go? Options

[murderous_though...]

Ok im not trying to be racist here, I just don't understand something and I hope somebody can help me out. Why are today's African Americans still holding us accountable for slavery? Were they slaves? Were their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents slaves? No...Were any of the white people alive today slave owners? Or their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents? No...Why get pissed off at white people about it? One of their ancestors was just as responsible for selling slaves to the whites in the first place...they were traded for sugar and rum. But you never see anybody complaining about the leader of that tribe that SOLD them like a friggin piece of fish....WE'RE ALL HUMAN BEINGS!! Don't get me wrong, im completely against slavery, but stop whining about something that didn't even happen to you. Now, the Jews and Palestinians...It all started way back when with Jacob and Esau...Jacob took Esaus birthright and blessing because of trickery, but after about 14 years, Jacob came back and Esau forgave him (Sparks notes version, k?) Jacob went on to make the Jewish nation, and Esau the Palestinians...why are they still fighting over land? Both had ancestors that believed in the same God, and the differences were reconciled before even Jesus was alive...can someone tell me why they're still fighting? (sorry for such a long post)

[*disco infiltrator*]

Yea, I think it's basically because it hasn't completely ended, but some people overreact a bit....racism goes on with everyone nowadays, not only black people, and some people still need to realize that.

[PiGo]

It's not like as soon as they abolished slavery, the former slaves could just start new lives and live happily ever after and had the same oppurtunities as everyone else.
Also don't forget about segregation and Jim Crow laws that legally kept people down until atleast the 1950s. In history class we watched this video about WWII, and that a group of black soldiers fighting for our country and our people, were forced to sit in the kitchen of a restaurant. Yet Nazi prisoners of war were allowed to sit with the rest of the white people and socialize. Isn't that disgusting?

And it's not like these things still don't go on. When my dad wanted to move to Rhode Island with his ex-wife (who is white), she went alone to check out the apartment. The landlord was happy to sell it to her, but when my dad came to see it later all the owner said was "You didn't tell me your husband was colored" and then he slammed the door in their faces.

[sadolakced acid]

to be fair, racism against blacks is more prevalent.

but as far as disadvantages: currently, the only ones a black has would be economic.

[murderous_though...]

These are all good points, but what I'm talking about is why they still use slavery as the main thing. Not all white people owned slaves back then, and not all slaves were black- there were white slaves as well. And why the younger generation is pissed off at other young people, none of them were alive when there was segregation or ANY legal discrimination, so why take it out on them? Oh yeah, there's also the thing about the Jews and Palestinians, im curious about that too.

[PiGo]

and not all slaves were black- there were white slaves as well.

Are you sure about that? I know there were indentured servants that were white. But that's different, a person would pay for someones trip to America, in return for them becoming a servant until they worked off the debt.
Also, when most black people I know complain about racial injustices, slavery is hardly brought up.
They also don't complain about random white people they see on the street, but about specific people who have done them wrong or the race as a whole (which I admit, is wrong).

but as far as disadvantages: currently, the only ones a black has would be economic.

You wouldn't say we have social disadvantages?

[Hiphop d[-_-]b]

but as far as disadvantages:  currently, the only ones a black has would be economic.

What Pigo said. You wouldnt say black people had social disadvantages ?

And like what Suzzette said. Racism, Prejudice and Discrimination is still going on. Slavery is the main targeted talk when speaking on racial injustice because it was the biggest thing and, Its not so much that black people were enslaved physically, but enslaved still to this day by racism, predjudice discrimination, segregation and other peoples ignorance.

[illumineering]

Gentrification, racial profiling, stereotyping, lynchings, glass ceilings, KKK and other hate groups, unequal educational opportunities are just a few of the issues African Americans have to deal with today. If you can't get it through your head that these are real issues today, try living in a country where your racial profile is not the ruling class and get a taste of how it feels to be a minority member of society. I think your notion of "get over it" will change dramatically.

Remember Rodney King, Amadu Diallo and the LAPD Rampart Division scandal? You might offer a literal response that tries to suggest that none of this post deals with literal human bondage, yet the nature of psychological/social slavery still exists.

[Mulder]

Are you sure about that?  I know there were indentured servants that were white.  But that's different, a person would pay for someones trip to America, in return for them becoming a servant until they worked off the debt.
Also, when most black people I know complain about racial injustices, slavery is hardly brought up.
They also don't complain about random white people they see on the street, but about specific people who have done them wrong or the race as a whole (which I admit, is wrong).
You wouldn't say we have social disadvantages?

im jewish.

my ancestors were slaves..back thousands of years ago.

damn you christians! *shakes fist angrily*

haha.

thats basically what i feel like a lot of black people are saying.

except not thousands, and not christians.

[MFDOOM]

Ok im not trying to be racist here, I just don't understand something and I hope somebody can help me out.  Why are today's African Americans still holding us accountable for slavery? Were they slaves? Were their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents slaves? No...Were any of the white people alive today slave owners? Or their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents? No...Why get pissed off at white people about it? One of their ancestors was just as responsible for selling slaves to the whites in the first place...they were traded for sugar and rum.  But you never see anybody complaining about the leader of that tribe that SOLD them like a friggin piece of fish....WE'RE ALL HUMAN BEINGS!! Don't get me wrong, im completely against slavery, but stop whining about something that didn't even happen to you.  Now, the Jews and Palestinians...It all started way back when with Jacob and Esau...Jacob took Esaus birthright and blessing because of trickery, but after about 14 years, Jacob came back and Esau forgave him (Sparks notes version, k?) Jacob went on to make the Jewish nation, and Esau the Palestinians...why are they still fighting over land? Both had ancestors that believed in the same God, and the differences were reconciled before even Jesus was alive...can someone tell me why they're still fighting?  (sorry for such a long post)

Resurrected Topic.

[sadolakced acid]

please don't spam.

[ComradeRed]

Gentrification,

Gentrification is a good thing. It raises urban property values so local governments have money to fund schools and stuff, you know. If you live in a ghetto, it's kind of hard to escape if your local school sucks.

You see the reason that black people are disproportinately poor is that they disproportinately live in places with low property values. All but the very richest Americans own most of their net worth (net worth is a better measure of wealth than income because someone can inherit a ton of money, not work, have an income of 0, but still be incredibly rich) in the forms of their homes so if you live in a place with low property values, it's pretty hard to build a nest egg. Moreover, since property values are low, the government has to raise taxes to compensate. This means that fewer people want to move in and pay those high taxes, which means the property becomes even less valuable so the government has to raise taxes even more, which mean the local residents get stuck living from hand to mouth--it's a vicious cycle, and gentrification is the only way to stop it by making urban living 'cool' again and raising property values.

All gentrification is is the opposite of white flight - so either you think white flight is good for urban poor black people or you think that the current balance is perfect. Neither of those are reasonable positions to take.

racial profiling,

Which is illegal in most places, and even in situations where it is done, it's not necessarily harmful.

Given a choice between a society in which 10% of black people are stopped for drug searches and no white people, versus a society in which 10% of everyone is stopped for drug searches, a rational black person should be indifferent since he has the same chance of being wronged in both cases.

Ideally we shouldn't have these searches at all, however this just shows that racial profiling is a symptom of the underlying policy problem, not the problem itself.

stereotyping,

Like black people don't stereotype.

lynchings,

When was the last one? 1960?

glass ceilings,

There's no causal evidence of this. Correlation and causation are the same thing--there are fewer CEOs under 5'9 than black CEOs but this doesn't necessarily mean that there is systematic discrimination against short people. It's entirely possible that black people are underrepresented in top positions for the same reason short people are--because they lack confidence because of being phyiscally different, and not because of any sort of discrimination against them.

KKK and other hate groups,

As opposed to the Black Panther Party?

unequal educational opportunities

Once again, you're committing a correlation fallacy. Black people tend to live in urban areas, which have worse school districts. A black person and a white person living in the same district with the same parents and income will have equal opportunities which shows that differences in opportunities aren't due to race, but to some other factor or combination of factors.

Besides, gentrification is probably the best way to fix the suburban-urban inequality that doesn't violate Soviet-style restrictions on where people live, yet you seem to be against that too.

are just a few of the issues African Americans have to deal with today.  If you can't get it through your head that these are real issues today, try living in a country where your racial profile is not the ruling class and get a taste of how it feels to be a minority member of society.  I think your notion of "get over it" will change dramatically. 

Well what about Asians? They've been in the US for less time than blacks, were materially worse off at the turn of the century than blacks were (Chinatown San Francisco had the highest alcoholism rate and was the poorest part of the country for decades). They clearly aren't the ruling race, yet the biggest complaint they can come up with now is trivial that they can't date white women.

Remember Rodney King, Amadu Diallo and the LAPD Rampart Division scandal?  You might offer a literal response that tries to suggest that none of this post deals with literal human bondage, yet the nature of psychological/social slavery still exists.

First of all, I don't, because I don't care about California and they have far more problems than race--but slavery implies that people force you to do something you don't want to. What are blacks forced to do?

[Ington]

So basically, if lets say if my ancestor from some three hundred years back smacked your ancestor from some three hundred years back, I'd be able to smack you back for him?

Thats basically the same thing. The slaves were mistreated. Why do you want a reward for it?

Really, I feel that people only make issues out of slavery now because they gain from it. No one really fights for equality anymore. Its always 'To strengthen the black man' or for another race. I'm ranting now, and can't express my ideas clearly.

This should be closed, because its like the white history month thread. Then again, the beginning of the topic is different. In the other thread, it eventually moved towards this.

[medic]

Ok im not trying to be racist here, I just don't understand something and I hope somebody can help me out.   Why are today's African Americans still holding us accountable for slavery? Were they slaves? Were their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents slaves? No...Were any of the white people alive today slave owners? Or their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents? No...Why get pissed off at white people about it? One of their ancestors was just as responsible for selling slaves to the whites in the first place...they were traded for sugar and rum.  But you never see anybody complaining about the leader of that tribe that SOLD them like a friggin piece of fish....WE'RE ALL HUMAN BEINGS!! Don't get me wrong, im completely against slavery, but stop whining about something that didn't even happen to you.  Now, the Jews and Palestinians...It all started way back when with Jacob and Esau...Jacob took Esaus birthright and blessing because of trickery, but after about 14 years, Jacob came back and Esau forgave him (Sparks notes version, k?) Jacob went on to make the Jewish nation, and Esau the Palestinians...why are they still fighting over land? Both had ancestors that believed in the same God, and the differences were reconciled before even Jesus was alive...can someone tell me why they're still fighting?   (sorry for such a long post)

Bravo.... I now appriciate you even more than I once did. Not only do I totaly agree with what you said, I...... Well yes, I agree with what your had to say.... I am sick an tired of hearing the excuse, "It's because I'm black." or "Your Racist." because you would not do something and or give something to them.

unequal educational opportunities

The United Negro College Fund is a million doller a year College fund that only gives college grants to Black/African Americans. Now, before some idiot says that there are Organizations like this for white people, save your self some humiliation. Equal opportunity...

[sovietski]

black people tend to be more racist than whties...oops, does this make me also racist? I don't know about you, but I've seen 1 to many white kids getting jumped by a group of blacks..does this mean, 10 years down the road, my kids have the right to jump the gansters children also?

[*disco infiltrator*]

To be fair, I think the amount of "jumpings" by either race is probably about equal.

I still have yet to see why race has a factor in anything...the headline shouldn't be "white kid gets jumped by black kid"...simply "teen gets jumped by peer" or something.

[Joss-eh-lime]

I am sick an tired of hearing the excuse, "It's because I'm black." or "Your Racist." because you would not do something and or give something to them.

so maybe people use it as a joke or excuse now but a generation ago blacks were denied so many things and tht was why.

murderous_thoughts :
"today's African Americans" don't all run around saying my grandpa was a slave i hate white people. if they say anything they arent "holding you accountable" it just sucks to know that people were treated so bad becuase of their skin color.

One of their ancestors was just as responsible for selling slaves to the whites in the first place...they were traded for sugar and rum. 

could u explain?

[sadolakced acid]

could u explain?

whites didn't do much enslaving. they bought slaves from coastal african tribes, who had started the slavery thing before contact with europeans.

the costal african tribes would enslave people and sell them to the ships that came by, in exchange for things like guns, with with to enslave more people.

[illumineering]

Gentrification is a good thing.

If you are a part of the social strata that can affort the higher cost of living that is a part of gentrification, then, maybe.

Which is illegal in most places, and even in situations where it is done, it's not necessarily harmful.

Spend some time along the US/Mexican border.

When was the last one? 1960?

lynching - Putting a person to death by mob action without due process of law.

James Byrd, Jr. June 1998

There's no causal evidence of this.

Wal-Mart is currently involved in a gender discrimination lawsuit covering more than 1.5 million women. The case is the largest class action lawsuit in U.S. history.

Once again, you're committing a correlation fallacy.  A black person and a white person living in the same district with the same parents and income will have equal opportunities

However strong the public’s desire for improved education systems may be, see P. Hart & R. Teeter, A National Priority: Americans Speak on Teacher Quality 2, 11 (2002) (public opinion research conducted for Educational Testing Service); The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, Pub. L. 107—110, 115 Stat. 1425 , 20 U.S.C. A. §7231 (2003 Supp. Pamphlet), it remains the current reality that many minority students encounter markedly inadequate and unequal educational opportunities.

- from Grutter v. Bolling
US Supreme Court decision/narrative

Well what about Asians? They've been in the US for less time than blacks, were materially worse off at the turn of the century than blacks were (Chinatown San Francisco had the highest alcoholism rate and was the poorest part of the country for decades). They clearly aren't the ruling race, yet the biggest complaint they can come up with now is trivial that they can't date white women.

Anecdotal statistics, while emotionally compelling, lack validity.

First of all, I don't, because I don't care about California

Then don't post. Amadu Diallo was living in NYC.

[ComradeRed]

If you are a part of the social strata that can affort the higher cost of living that is a part of gentrification, then, maybe.

Did you actually read my arguments? The reason people in inner cities are poor is because property values are low.

What do you think of suburban flight? I don't get people who oppose both -- "The white man perpetuates oppression by moving out of the city, and the white man perpetuates oppression by moving into the city." Which is it?

Spend some time along the US/Mexican border.

So what you're saying is that the majority of the people who are stopped for coming in illegally from Mexico are Hispanics? Shocking!

lynching - Putting a person to death by mob action without due process of law.

James Byrd, Jr. June 1998

A few white supremacists hardly constitutes institutional oppression. I'm sure gangs of black people have killed white people before too. And other black people as well.

Wal-Mart is currently involved in a gender discrimination lawsuit covering more than 1.5 million women. The case is the largest class action lawsuit in U.S. history.

If you don't like their gender policies, don't work for them. It's that simple. Wal-Mart isn't dragging you out of your house in chains and forcing you to do business with them.

Women are paid less than men because companies have to pay them maternity leave, childcare benefits, more health benefits, etc. If women wanted equal wages to men, no one would hire women. Why would I hire someone who would take off a year to have a kid and pay them the same amount when I could hire someone who would work that year?

Furthermore, this doesn't prove that there is a "glass ceiling"... it just proves that 1.5 million women have PMS. Someone who wants to seriously advance in the corporate world has to put in workweeks of between 60 and 100 hours (investment bankers). Statistically, fewer women are willing to do so than men. So not surprisingly, fewer of them advance. It's like how because fewer women choose higher paying majors like engineering and more of them choose low-paying majors like liberal arts, they on average get paid less when they finish college. That's not sexism--that's personal choice. X isn't causing Y, Z is, but it's easier to blame Y on X because then you can force people to give you money.

However strong the public’s desire for improved education systems may be, see P. Hart & R. Teeter, A National Priority: Americans Speak on Teacher Quality 2, 11 (2002) (public opinion research conducted for Educational Testing Service); The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, Pub. L. 107—110, 115 Stat. 1425 , 20 U.S.C. A. §7231 (2003 Supp. Pamphlet), it remains the current reality that many minority students encounter markedly inadequate and unequal educational opportunities.

Might this be because property values are too low so school boards don't have any money? The exact problem that is fixed by gentrification?

Once again, you are saying X (being a minority) causes Y, when in reality Z (low urban property values) causes Y, and X and Y just happen to be correlated. Correlation is not causation. Just because there are fewer pirates and more computers now then there were in 1700 doesn't mean that reducing the number of pirates is what caused an increase in the number of computers.

Anecdotal statistics, while emotionally compelling, lack validity.

Saying that Asian-Americans were poor a hundred years ago and faced more obstacles than blacks did in 1900 and are doing fine now is hardly anecdotal.

[illumineering]

I hold a fundamentally different view of gentrification than you do. Rather than continue posting, I do agree that you have specific reasons for your point-of-view that are contrary to my experience. As for the rest of the post, we are truly polar opposites in our views of race relations.

After living in California for 12 years and seeing the effects of the issues raised in this thread, I don't find myself swayed by your argument. I'm rather certain you may feel the same way about my views.

The experience of living in an environment where the poor working class, elderly and others on fixed income are marginalized by deliberate efforts to gentrify a neighborhood, the most notable being Santa Monica, is a more relevant consequence than increased tax revenues, new co-ops and any other material gain gentrification may bring.

[Joss-eh-lime]

whites didn't do much enslaving. they bought slaves from coastal african tribes, who had started the slavery thing before contact with europeans.

the costal african tribes would enslave people and sell them to the ships that came by, in exchange for things like guns, with with to enslave more people.

so regular tribes would just decide to take over other tribes and sell? i see...

[sadolakced acid]

lynching - Putting a person to death by mob action without due process of law.

James Byrd, Jr. June 1998

4 white guys hardly constitute a mob.

However strong the public’s desire for improved education systems may be, see P. Hart & R. Teeter, A National Priority: Americans Speak on Teacher Quality 2, 11 (2002) (public opinion research conducted for Educational Testing Service); The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, Pub. L. 107—110, 115 Stat. 1425 , 20 U.S.C. A. §7231 (2003 Supp. Pamphlet), it remains the current reality that many minority students encounter markedly inadequate and unequal educational opportunities.

- from Grutter v. Bolling
  US Supreme Court decision/narrative

this is an effect of economical statuses, not of race or racial discriminations.

[illumineering]

4 white guys hardly constitute a mob. 
this is an effect of economical statuses, not of race or racial discriminations.

Definition of mob from MSN Encarta

ordinary people, especially when thought of collectively as unintelligent or irrational

Read the decision. That is not what the court determined.

[ComradeRed]

You're playing semantics. Just because four people out of how many white people in the US killed a black man doesn't mean society is institutionalized against black people. If anything, racism and hate groups like the KKK are most prevalent in parts of the country that have the LEAST power in national politics (i.e. West Virginia), so hate crimes are a fringe abnormality, not institutional racism.

Also, the Supreme Court could be wrong, you know. There was that Dred Scott thing after all. A black person who lives in the same school district as a white person recieves the exact same public school education. QED there is no causal race discrimination.

Correlation is not causation! Blacks going to worse schools isn't even strong correlation; it's weak correlation -- strong correlation must control for all variables. And even then it wouldn't be causation -- otherwise I could claim that a reduction in the number of pirates is what is causing global warming.