Abortion Options

[*mipadi*]

YES it belongs to them. YES they helped make it...even if they didn't want to. It's not an easy fact to accept but that child is theirs, whether they like it or not. My question to you is, if you think that a women should be able to deny her child on the basis that she she doesn't want to accept it, should guys be allowed to do this too? If a man doesn't want to take responsiblity and be a parent to his child, she he be allowed to neglect it?

That's entirely different. If a man willingly participates in the actions that lead up to making a baby, he has a responsibility to it. If a women is raped, she was not an active or willing participant. The cases are quite different.

[Heewee]

That's entirely different. If a man willingly participates in the actions that lead up to making a baby, he has a responsibility to it. If a women is raped, she was not an active or willing participant. The cases are quite different.

What if a woman lied to a man, telling him she was on birth control, and used to him just to get pregnant? Or if SHE raped HIM? It's a lot more common for women to get raped than men, but it does happen.

But back to the real topic. My point was that women need to take responsiblity just like men do. It's totally understandable that a woman wouldn't want to raise a child that was a product of rape but it's a totally different story to abort the child. Adoption is the best choice here.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Again...

I still have not been given a reason as to why someone should have to have a child when they don't want to, especially since the current laws even right now prevent it from happening when the fetus is actually living...

And so what you're saying is we should just have all the children we can, even if they were accidents, only to put them into orphanages and a foster parent cycle that could result (and often results) in them getting abused and actually getting killed later in life, after they have already lived a life?

We already have overpopulation of adoption centers and orphanages. Many kids grow up to never have parents at all, and if not that, get sent from home to home through the foster child system, still ending up with no parents. You would rather just have more and more depressed, miserable people living some pretty sad lives because they have no one around to love them? Or would you like to prevent a child from having to go through a life they don't want, that no one should ever want, for themselves or anyone else? Why would you want your child to live like that? Why not prevent them even being alive before it happens and prevent them from having to go through all that?

I think going through a life like that is much more traumatic to a living child than it getting aborted as a group of cells, less cells than I kill by falling on the ground and scraping my arm.

[*mipadi*]

What if a woman lied to a man, telling him she was on birth control, and used to him just to get pregnant? Or if SHE raped HIM? It's a lot more common for women to get raped than men, but it does happen.

If a woman lied, the man is still a willing participate in the actions leading to the pregnancy; in the second case, no, the man would have no responsibility for the child.

[xmkaex]

Pro-life all da way.  Life's life.  You can't just take it away no matter what the circumstances.  I can see how it's tough for rape victims, but they shouldn't take it out on the unborn child.  The rape victim has already become a victim.  Don't let the unborn child become a victim as well.

^ yeah same here

think about this:
what if u were the one who was being aborted...?

[Comptine]

^ yeah same here

think about this:
what if u were the one who was being aborted...?

that's a silly argument on many levels. once a fetus is aborted, they don't have a life and they can't think. so i was being aborted or was aborted, i wouldn't have an opinion. these what if situations are bad arguments because they fail to make a point and fail to add to the debate.

most of us agreed that we can't have a free-for-all abortion system but the option has to stay open. if you put a ban on abortion, then you force a lot of women in a desperate corner and they would do anything to get rid of something they don't want.

our body is our own; no one else should have a say to what we can or cannot do to it. in the nazi concentration camps, the jews were tattoed and had their bodies detroyed by an outside authority. a lot of holocaust survivors said that this lose of control over their body made them feel as if they weren't living in more, as if nothing was theirs any more.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Again...

I still have not been given a reason as to why someone should have to have a child when they don't want to, especially since the current laws even right now prevent it from happening when the fetus is actually living...

And so what you're saying is we should just have all the children we can, even if they were accidents, only to put them into orphanages and a foster parent cycle that could result (and often results) in them getting abused and actually getting killed later in life, after they have already lived a life?

We already have overpopulation of adoption centers and orphanages. Many kids grow up to never have parents at all, and if not that, get sent from home to home through the foster child system, still ending up with no parents. You would rather just have more and more depressed, miserable people living some pretty sad lives because they have no one around to love them? Or would you like to prevent a child from having to go through a life they don't want, that no one should ever want, for themselves or anyone else? Why would you want your child to live like that? Why not prevent them even being alive before it happens and prevent them from having to go through all that?

I think going through a life like that is much more traumatic to a living child than it getting aborted as a group of cells, less cells than I kill by falling on the ground and scraping my arm.

I strongly agree. If the woman in pregnancy wants to have an abortion because she believes her child will most likely have a pathetic life. Then let abortion be used.

and for those who think it's taking a life. Once a baby is concieved, it is nothing more but a brainless organism. It doesn't have a mind, a heart, nor a soul (yet). It cannot even think for itself. It's just a sperm slowly developing in an egg

i just had a hebrew school class just on this.
i agree with the jewish view (even though im agnostic) that fetuses are "mere fluid." not life.

and about rape. i personally could never carry a rapist's child. i just..would feel dirty. wrong. its wrong to have to carry a rapist's child. victims should at least be given a choice.

[Heewee]

Again...

I still have not been given a reason as to why someone should have to have a child when they don't want to, especially since the current laws even right now prevent it from happening when the fetus is actually living...

And so what you're saying is we should just have all the children we can, even if they were accidents, only to put them into orphanages and a foster parent cycle that could result (and often results) in them getting abused and actually getting killed later in life, after they have already lived a life?

We already have overpopulation of adoption centers and orphanages. Many kids grow up to never have parents at all, and if not that, get sent from home to home through the foster child system, still ending up with no parents. You would rather just have more and more depressed, miserable people living some pretty sad lives because they have no one around to love them? Or would you like to prevent a child from having to go through a life they don't want, that no one should ever want, for themselves or anyone else? Why would you want your child to live like that? Why not prevent them even being alive before it happens and prevent them from having to go through all that?

I think going through a life like that is much more traumatic to a living child than it getting aborted as a group of cells, less cells than I kill by falling on the ground and scraping my arm.

These children that you are talking about are usually not in orphanages or foster care right from birth. The children that grow up in these situations are, unfortunatley, given up for adoption when they are a few years old because the parents can't or don't want to deal with them anymore or because both of their parents died. I hate to say this, but a majority of adopted children were adopted right from birth. Most couples who are looking to adopt, want to adopt a newborn baby. In the case of giving up babies for adoption, rather than aborting them, they would have a much better chance of being adopted. On another note, I don't think you're giving foster care and orphanges as much credit as they deserve. There are standards and laws that places like this have to abide by. Not every orphange is like the ones that you see in movies. No, it's not the preffered way of life but at least it's life.

and for those who think it's taking a life. Once a baby is concieved, it is nothing more but a brainless organism. It doesn't have a mind, a heart, nor a soul (yet). It cannot even think for itself. It's just a sperm slowly developing in an egg

I just can't seem to understand how people think it's okay to kill something just because it isn't fully developed yet. Just because the fetus hasn't developed a brain yet, shouldn't give anybody the right to kill it. It's like saying that it's okay just because it doesn't understand. Does that give us the right to kill mentally disabled kids because they wouldn't understand what was happening and wouldn't have an opinion? Of course not. Newborn babies can't comprehend and have opinions because their brain is still developing but it is considered murder to kill them. I don't think that abortion should be justified based on a fetus's inability to think at the time.

[*disco infiltrator*]

You can't kill something that isn't alive. You must have life before death. Fetuses that are aborted are not alive.

I've posted statistics on adoption earlier in this thread, about what races/nationalities get adopted, and the growing trend in adopting non-US babies. I've shown the flaws in the adoption system, more than once. Why do I need to again?

It doesn't work out, and at least a quarter of babies in the US put up for adoption don't get adopted until later in life or not at all, especially if they have a birth defect or something. Babies with birth defects or anything "wrong" with them usually never get adopted. No one wants a baby like that. Why wouldn't you prevent it from living in the first place, instead of going through such a horrible life, not only with the "wrong" things, but never having a family as well?

I'm more concerned with the quality of life rather than the quantity.

[ParanoidAndroid]

^you make up the greatest points. and besides, that fetus hasn't lived a life (like the others said) so why make such a big deal? Do you want to populate this world with children who probably don't like their lives as it is? It's better to prevent a mistake then let it happen. (love your sig btw)

[sadolakced acid]

For all those that are saying that abortion is justifiable if a woman was raped....ever heard of adoption? Yes, the woman will have to go through nine months carrying a child and then go through labor but sometimes life throws us curveballs. Not everything in life is going to be "fair" and if you think that just because you were raped, you should have the choice to kill an innocent baby, there's something wrong. There are plenty of couples out there that can't have babies and would love to adopt one. When you abort a baby, not only do you take away its life, but you also take away the dreams of a couple that would love to become parents.

there is no baby killing involved in abortions.

[coconutter]

People are boycotting american girl dolls, because they donated money to an abortion center. They stand up for womens rights, so what? That means your kids can't have stupid little dolls?

[sadolakced acid]

what abortion rights comes down is this:

one side supports abortion as a right and wishes to give women a choice.

one side views abortion as immoral wishes to force thier own beliefs about abortion on everyone else and take a choice away from women.

[Heewee]

what abortion rights comes down is this:

one side supports abortion as a right and wishes to give women a choice.

one side views abortion as immoral wishes to force thier own beliefs about abortion on everyone else and take a choice away from women.

Sadly, babies will continue to be murdered whether the parents have the choice or not. Giving them the choice just leads them to believe that it's okay.

[*disco infiltrator*]

I will restate....

You cannot murder something that is not alive. Abortions are not, and will not, be legal past the point of life, unless there is an extenuating circumstance.

[Heewee]

I will restate....

You cannot murder something that is not alive. Abortions are not, and will not, be legal past the point of life, unless there is an extenuating circumstance.

An abortion aborts a fetus. A fetus is growing. How can you say that a growing thing isn't alive? Even if it isn't "alive" by your definition, what makes you think that you can stop it from soon being alive? Murder is taking away somebody's life. In my view, keeping something from being able to be alive is the same thing.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Just because something has the potential to live does not mean it is living.

A rock has the potential to be broken in half. Does that mean it is and that we should do nothing to stop it from being broken, just because it eventually will be?

[sadolakced acid]

well all have the potential to be dead, but that doens't mean we should run around killing people.

you keep asserting that abortion is murder. care to prove it?

[*tweeak*]

I don't understand the concept of not being able to love or handle carrying the baby of a rapist. It's your child too, and there is adoption. Besides which, the baby is NOT the rapist. You are not your parents, so why should your child grow up to be its father? Raise it, teach it to live a good life, but don't sink to the level where you keep it from living. It's selfish and ridiculous. And if you really can't handle it, put if up for adoption. But honestly, have some pride and carry it. Rather than run away from your problems, confront them. You may feel "dirty" as you're pregnant, but that would be no less true if you aborted. Many women get depressed after having abortions, and spend their entire lives regretting the decision. It doesn't matter if it isn't developed- the fetus is still alive. The fact that it was fertilized and able to begin growing means that it has life in it, so taking it away is still murder. Have some responsibility for your actions, voluntary or otherwise. There are plenty of ways to have a miscarriage if you object so much - but having the legal choice is just allowing women to be irresponsible and pretend that it never happened. Well, it did. And killing the baby will not make that go away. Erasing the physical proof does not make the memories go away. That's stupid. Many women, even if they didn't want to get pregnant, feel empty after losing a baby, be it by natural miscarriage or abortion. It's for a reason. There's still that maternal instinct. I don't think it's a religious matter, either. Being atheist is not an excuse for someone to go around murdering people, so how is this better? Yes, it's your baby, but it would be the baby's life.

[Mulder]

Have some responsibility for your actions, voluntary or otherwise.

what actions of theirs should they be responsible for? being raped? violated?

rape victims have to go through years of therapy after a trauma like that. i could see victims committing suicide if they were forced to carry a child that they had no part in making.

a woman that is raped and gets pregnant had no input in it. its not like she was on the pill and it didnt work, and she wants an abortion. she didnt do anything at all. she didnt even have sex.

[sadolakced acid]

^ well, not willingly, at least.

but abortions should not be banned. where else are we to get adult stem cells that the religious right is touting as the alternative to embryonic stem cells. (that's right. "adult" stem cells come from aborted feotuses)

[*disco infiltrator*]

Nicki, the fetus doesn't actually begin growing as a living thing until a certain point.

And, what if the raped girl was in high school? She has to go through that misery of being pregnant, with a rapist's baby, in freaking high school? It's bad enough in the real world.

Like I said before, I'm much more concerned with the quality of life rather than the quantity. I hate seeing people sad. So, if there's a way we can have some happy lives rather than a bunch of sad ones, I'd go that way.

[*tweeak*]

what actions of theirs should they be responsible for? being raped? violated?

rape victims have to go through years of therapy after a trauma like that. i could see victims committing suicide if they were forced to carry a child that they had no part in making.

a woman that is raped and gets pregnant had no input in it. its not like she was on the pill and it didnt work, and she wants an abortion. she didnt do anything at all. she didnt even have sex.

And some people also commit suicide for having an abortion. It's a lose-lose situation, but it's better to lose one life than two. An yes, handle the rape responsibly. It's a lot more respectable to deal with your problems tthan to run away from them, which is basically what abortion does.

Sammi, by that "quality over quanity" arguement, you could basically argue that it's ok to bomb third world countries, or let poverty stricken people die than to even bother to help them if they're just living sad lives anyway. What's another few thousand, anyway? Lovely in theory, but quality over quanitiy just doesn't make sense, because not everyone can live a happy, good life. Many people who had hard childhoods grow up to be much stronger because of it.

[sadolakced acid]

killing one soon to be life is much better than ruining two, sometimes three.

[*disco infiltrator*]

And some people also commit suicide for having an abortion. It's a lose-lose situation, but it's better to lose one life than two. An yes, handle the rape responsibly. It's a lot more respectable to deal with your problems tthan to run away from them, which is basically what abortion does.

Sammi, by that "quality over quanity" arguement, you could basically argue that it's ok to bomb third world countries, or let poverty stricken people die than to even bother to help them if they're just living sad lives anyway. What's another few thousand, anyway? Lovely in theory, but quality over quanitiy just doesn't make sense, because not everyone can live a happy, good life. Many people who had hard childhoods grow up to be much stronger because of it.

People should always help someone rather than kill them, if they are able to. If there's no way to help the child, and they would probably just die of starvation because you don't have enough money to support them...why wouldn't you want to prevent that?

I know not everyone can live a happy life. But why bring more miserable people into the world? It would even out that ratio of happy:miserable if you prevented them from living in the first place.

Abortion is a preventative measure, not killing.