"under God", should it be taken out?? Options

[*disco infiltrator*]

I know that's why it was originally put in, but I don't think we need to really find something to show that we are not supportive of Communism right now, and the reason it's there has been changed and it's taken on a new meaning.

[verlorenrivets]

McCarthy is awesome! We should all practice McCarthyism EVERY DAY IN CLASSROOMS ACROSS AMERICA, OUR ONE NATION UNDER GOD!

[*mipadi*]

I know that's why it was originally put in, but I don't think we need to really find something to show that we are not supportive of Communism right now, and the reason it's there has been changed and it's taken on a new meaning.

Yes, now we need something else to show how we're going to sock it to those terrorists.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Right, of course, because why would we want to encourage peaceful relations with those crazy non-Christian Islamic people?

[Joss-eh-lime]

And like I've said, more than once, it makes those of us who do not believe in God feel inferior and like we don't belong in this country.

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

[teeblue]

That phrase has history to it. The phrase "under God" isn't all about religion its about the hope of the early settlers. They all have to have a strong convinction for something so that they can fight and die for the future of United State. "under God" represents the sacrifices of many soldiers who believe in our future.

[*mipadi*]

That phrase has history to it. The phrase "under God" isn't all about religion its about the hope of the early settlers. They all have to have a strong convinction for something so that they can fight and die for the future of United State. "under God" represents the sacrifices of many soldiers who believe in our future.

No it doesn't. It represents a need to keep the damn Commies out of our great nation.

[NoSex]

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

Which god? Your god?

I'm confused.

Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[Spirited Away]

well this country started out believing in God so naturally if you dont, you'd feel out of place. but thats just how it is.

Why don't you read the thread. (< not a question, obviously). I'm really sick and tired of seeing this comment floating around, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[kayemo]

Which god? Your god?

I'm confused.

Treaty of Tripoli: Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You forget that Christian is not the only religion that believes in God (and if you're going to say, "which god?" even though I'm sure you very well know which one, the ones that Christians believe in). At the time Puritanism was also popular. The country was founded so that the people here could worship God however they chose, yet not other gods (an example would be Buddha). Most of the settlers that first came to America were being forced to become Roman Catholics when they did not believe in catholicism. If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. It's a matter of respect.

[blackxpearl]

I don't know if I acctually have the right to an opinion since I'm not american or anything but I think it should be taking out. It's kinda assuming that everyone in america is catholic. Which I know for a fact they arn't.

Also, I'm not saying anyone is but just make sure if you're catholic, your beliefs are being reflected on your opinion. Keep an open mind, not everyone is catholic, I respect about the forefathers or whatever were catholic or whatever, (i have no idea who they are or what they did but anyways) and i respect that they uhmmm, well idk what they did but i respect whatever it was, but times have moved on and to be honest I think having to say the whole god thing, is kinda like saying, "I'm catholic and my beliefs are fact" which I disagree, obviously, because nobody can say their beliefs are fact, they are beliefs and exactly that. In my opinion, and it might have something to do with where I live but catholics (and protestants) are getting a bad name for themselves and it's getting plastered onto the religeon rather than the acctual person, if I were those people I would calm it down a bit.

Dude I've went away off topic x.x

[*disco infiltrator*]

And uh...just because the founding fathers believed in a god doesn't mean they wanted anyone and everyone else to also, or expected them to.

Besides, when the pledge was first instituted, it didn't have "under God" in it. That was put in during the Cold War. So stop bringing up the founding fathers; they didn't put it there, and neither did the people who wrote it, nor the people around at the time it was implemented.

If another person says "our founding fathers believed this and it's what our country was founded on", they will be warned, because it's been said before and it has no relevance to the pledge, seeing as they did not write it or have anything to do with it.

[Teesa]

Hmm, they say the pledge every morning at our school. When I was younger, I used to follow my peers and just stand up with them. But now that I'm older and I know I don't believe in god, I don't say that part of it, and usually I just don't stand up at all.

I do think that the words "under god" should be removed because there is nothing wrong in saying:
I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?

[NoSex]

You forget that Christian is not the only religion that believes in God (and if you're going to say, "which god?" even though I'm sure you very well know which one, the ones that Christians believe in).

I think you missed the point. It was a rhetorical question to underline the problem with identifing the Christian God in our national pledge when our heritage, our founding fathers, and our past and current population are all comprised of drasticly different religious and theological sentiments. Not all of them ever believed in the same god.

At the time Puritanism was also popular.

Puritanism was never popular. The people you are refering to as "puritan" never actually identified themselves as such. It was a derogatory term used by antagonists which opposed the Protestant Reformation. These people are often refered to Pilgrims as well. These pilgrims arrived here in the Americas around 1920, at least 11 years after Jamestown was first settled. There reasons for migration and settlement were blaringly different than the majority of original settelers who were involved in business.

The country was founded so that the people here could worship God however they chose, yet not other gods (an example would be Buddha).

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson created a list of 27 grievances that he, and his fellow settelers, believed had been done onto the New World by King George III.

Jefferson writes, "Such has been the patient Sufferance so these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the Present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let the Facts be submitted to a candid World."

He then continued to list all charges against the King and the British parliment. He is making the case for independence. Charges include military harrasement, unfair taxes, unjust trials, and lack of equal representation. But, of all the 27 charges, not a single one includes religious oppression.

Your charge that is country was founded so that men could worship freely a christian God, but not an eastern God such as Buddha is highly fallacious. Your confusion sits with the Puritan movement. Yes, the Puritans were zealous Protestants. Yes, they wanted everyone to believe in a single Protestant (Christian) God. However, they did not want to build a new country around this idea. This was not their intent in moving to the New World.

Most of the settlers that first came to America were being forced to become Roman Catholics when they did not believe in catholicism.

Wrong again. None of them were being foreced to believe in catholicism. You truly have a distorted conception of the Protestant Reformation and puritan migration. As well as early colonial settlement in the Americas.

I'll try to make this simple.

1. Jamestown was the earliest and most significant of english-speaking colonial settlement. It was a colonization based on business. The land and colony was owned by the Virginia Company of London and of Plymouth. John Smith, famous English settler and famous foundation behind Jamestown, was granted charter by King James I (Hence, Jamestown). Under the Virgina Company, the area was to be colonized for profit. Most of the first settlers first came to America for business and profit.

2. In western Europe, a movement had been stirring ever since Martin Luther challenged the catholic church. This movement was refered to as the Protestant Reformation. The idea behind it is that radical Protestants would "purify" the church by eliminating Catholic and "Popery" influence. This proved rather difficult as most powers held strong Catholic ideals. The Protestant Reformation and those involved were looked down upon by the majority of the population and their movement was in bad shape. They were in disfavor, however they were not being forced to convert, tortured, or persecuted simply because they were protestants.

3. The Protestants who still saw hope in Reformation traveled out of England. Not because they felt that they need more religious freedom, but because they felt that there was far too much religious freedom in England. They believed that the state should abolish all Catholic influence and impose Protestant and more "pure" ideals.

4. Yes. They traveled from England, but not to the Americas. Not at first. They originaly settled in southern Holland, in the Netherlands. The belief was that if they did it right they could serve as an example to the rest of the world, and more specificly England. However, the highly radical protestants felt threatened by Dutch influence. So, fearing their children's spiritual and cultural health, they fled to the States in hopes of a fresher start. The idea what that they would ring in Reformation in England from the states. They thought that Britian would follow their example. The plan was then to abandon the new found colonies, and to migrate back to England and celebrate victory. Victory never came, winter did. Alot of them died.

5. They weren't being forced to be Catholic. They wanted to force everyone to be Protestant.

If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in God. It's a matter of respect.

I'm not even so sure what that means.
What exactly am I respecting again? Why can't you respect your neighbors? Why do you have to hold onto a perverted version of our county's history, national motto, and pledge? We want to represent and respect all people, of all color, and all background. We want to unite America and it's people. We don't want to devide. We would never want to send the message to anyone that if you don't in this specific God that you might not be part of America. Nor did our founding fathers.

In 1956, at the heart of Red Scare, we changed our motto to "In God We Trust." In just two more years, paper money sported the new motto, and our pledge had been changed to include the phrase, "In God." All to prove that killing communism was right. Because communists were atheists, and we loved Jesus. God was on our side!

In 1789, we, as a country, adopted our first motto. It read, "E pluribus unum." In latin, this meant, "Out of Many, One."

[fisher0fman]

This country was founded on God..let's keep it that way.

[*mipadi*]

This country was founded on God..let's keep it that way.

This has been discussed. The US was not founded on God. Its creators certainly had some Christian influences when writing some laws and policies, but it's a huge stretch to say it's founded on God. The United States has more of a basis in Enlightenment political philosophy than in Christianity and "God".

[Spirited Away]

I seriously think people should be warned or given a verbal warning, at least, for not following the most basic rules of this forum.

[*disco infiltrator*]

This country was founded on God..let's keep it that way.

If another person says "our founding fathers believed this and it's what our country was founded on", they will be warned, because it's been said before and it has no relevance to the pledge, seeing as they did not write it or have anything to do with it.

Thanks! Here's your verbal warning!

[anoniez]

I personally don't think it should be taken out; although I am athiest, I don't find it offensive at all and rarely say it. hahah so I'm really arguing both sides in this post. What a paradox.

However, a point I want to add to all the people who said that you're not obligated to say it:
Whereas you may not feel obligated to say it now, old as you are, little kids are extremely influence by peer pressure and may say it just because everyone else is.. I know I used to. Don't assume that just because you feel comfortable not saying it, everyone else is the same. The point is that there should be no inkling of pressure at all to say the pledge if you don't want to- something that is hard to avoid with small children unless you take out the words "under God."

I also find fault with saying that "it's always been that way, why change it now?"
One might as well say, back in the first half of the 1800s, that "slavery has always been the way things are, why change it now?"

on the other side:
A lot of people view "under God" as a purely historical reference. You're not pledging allegiance to any "God," you're pledging allegiance to "the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands," whose founders did believe in God and did found our nation on Judeo-Christian principles. The words "under God" can be viewed simply as a testament to the enormous role that Christianity has played in our nation's history, through which the majority of Americans have been Christian.
this was just an interesting argument i read somewhere.
also look to the mentioning of a God in various historical documents.. "in the year of our Lord," "God-given inalienable rights" etc.. these bear testimony to the part Christian principles have played in the founding of our government. the nation wasn't founded directly ON God, but Christianity sure had a large influence.

[NoSex]

on the other side:
A lot of people view "under God" as a purely historical reference. You're not pledging allegiance to any "God," you're pledging allegiance to "the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands," whose founders did believe in God and did found our nation on Judeo-Christian principles. The words "under God" can be viewed simply as a testament to the enormous role that Christianity has played in our nation's history, through which the majority of Americans have been Christian.
this was just an interesting argument i read somewhere.
also look to the mentioning of a God in various historical documents.. "in the year of our Lord," "God-given inalienable rights" etc..  these bear testimony to the part Christian principles have played in the founding of our government. the nation wasn't founded directly ON God, but Christianity sure had a large influence.

Could you seriously read my post on this same page. It's rather long, but would you please. Thank you.

[Mulder]

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

i think he means colonized.

the country has existed long before it declared its independence.

the first "pilgrims" were separatists who were trying to escape from England, whose official religion at that time was the Church of England.

as England turned to Catholicism, Mary was killing many separatists. so more fled to America for religious freedom and tolerance.

America wasnt techically a country while under England's rule, but honestly, during the decades leading up to the Revolution, America was its own nation, regardless of the fact that they were an English territory.



wee. im done.

sorry... this is helping me with my history final.

[NoSex]

I think you are getting really confused. This country was founded on July 4, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the continental congress. The country also dramaticly changed and become defined in 1789 when the Constitution and Bill of Rights replaced the Articles of Confederation to actually unite the states. All of these documents, which comprise the founding of the United States of America, support freedom of religion as well as a church and state seperation. No mention of a Jesus Christ, or any other blatantly christian symbol, is present. The country was not founded for that specific purpose. The purpose we were founded is directly related to the unjust treatment under Britian and lack of representation which led to the American Revolutionary War.

i think he means colonized.

the country has existed long before it declared its independence.

the first "pilgrims" were separatists who were trying to escape from England, whose official religion at that time was the Church of England.

as England turned to Catholicism, Mary was killing many separatists. so more fled to America for religious freedom and tolerance.

America wasnt techically a country while under England's rule, but honestly, during the decades leading up to the Revolution, America was its own nation, regardless of the fact that they were an English territory.
wee. im done.

sorry... this is helping me with my history final.

Read the entire thing. I address this issue, as well as early colonization. Read the whole thing.

[anoniez]

Could you seriously read my post on this same page. It's rather long, but would you please. Thank you.

I read it, and I still feel I had a right to post what I did. I think you're construing my post as saying that our nation was founded on God, or Christianity. I'm not saying the U.S. was founded on God, or to allow people to worship God, or even on Christianity. I think it's a bit unfair to lump my response under what someone else said without even seriously considering it. And I know I'm playing the devil's advocate in a way here since I'm atheist myself, but here goes.
I'll explain further. What I'm saying is that for a large part of American history, the majority by far of Americans were Christian. Since our government is democratic, that would necessitate our government being based off of, in part, Christian principles - think of representative democracy. The Christian ideals of his constituency would be represented by a congressman in the government. Religion, specifically Christianity, played a major role in our government for a very long time.. there even used to be laws mandating the closure of businesses on Sundays. Even now a large majority of the members of our legislative branch are white male Christians.
So basically what I'm doing is trying to provide a link between Christianity and our government.. I'm not saying that our country was founded for Christianity, but rather that Christianity has nevertheless played a large role in our nation's history. I'm really sorry if I didn't express it clearly enough.

[NoSex]

I read it, and I still feel I had a right to post what I did. I think you're construing my post as saying that our nation was founded on God, or Christianity. I'm not saying the U.S. was founded on God, or to allow people to worship God, or even on Christianity. I think it's a bit unfair to lump my response under what someone else said without even seriously considering it. And I know I'm playing the devil's advocate in a way here since I'm atheist myself, but here goes.
I'll explain further. What I'm saying is that for a large part of American history, the majority by far of Americans were Christian. Since our government is democratic, that would necessitate our government being based off of, in part, Christian principles - think of representative democracy. The Christian ideals of his constituency would be represented by a congressman in the government. Religion, specifically Christianity, played a major role in our government for a very long time.. there even used to be laws mandating the closure of businesses on Sundays. Even now a large majority of the members of our legislative branch are white male Christians.
So basically what I'm doing is trying to provide a link between Christianity and our government.. I'm not saying that our country was founded for Christianity, but rather that Christianity has nevertheless played a large role in our nation's history. I'm really sorry if I didn't express it clearly enough.

Christianity has played a rather large role in all of our nation's history. Granted. However, I fail to see how this fact justifies declaring, in a national pledge, that we are under that christian God. To me, that only seems to polarize our nation, as well as to pervert our founding. These words do not seem to be in place for some form of historical significance. Not as far as I can see.

I see where you are coming from. But, our country, largely, is based in the concept of a freedom of and from religion. Many of our most influential founding fathers, including many of our first presidents, did not believe in a Christian God. Some even despised the Christian religion. Our democracy is not a pure democratic state. We live under a democratic republic. This, largely, is in place to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. We are supposed to be living in a land where everyones voice can be heard equally. Everyone is represented fairly. Everyone can be united in the image of our nation and draw from that a creat power in that unity. I think this is trivialized, and the founding of our nation is mocked by supported the words, "Under God" in our national pledge. If anything is disrespectful, it is that.

[anoniez]

Christianity has played a rather large role in all of our nation's history. Granted. However, I fail to see how this fact justifies declaring, in a national pledge, that we are under that christian God. To me, that only seems to polarize our nation, as well as to pervert our founding. These words do not seem to be in place for some form of historical significance. Not as far as I can see.

I see where you are coming from. But, our country, largely, is based in the concept of a freedom of and from religion. Many of our most influential founding fathers, including many of our first presidents, did not believe in a Christian God. Some even despised the Christian religion. Our democracy is not a pure democratic state. We live under a democratic republic. This, largely, is in place to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. We are supposed to be living in a land where everyones voice can be heard equally. Everyone is represented fairly. Everyone can be united in the image of our nation and draw from that a creat power in that unity. I think this is trivialized, and the founding of our nation is mocked by supported the words, "Under God" in our national pledge. If anything is disrespectful, it is that.

Hahah. I happen to completely agree with you. I feel that justifying it as a historical reference evades the subject of religious sensitivity. I've really been posting not for the sake of my personal opinion so much as to introduce new ideas into the debate.. I'm too used to riding the fence. >< If you want more information on the historical reference argument, look up former Chief Justice Rehnquist's opinion on the Elk Grove v. Newdow case. It makes a tolerable amount of sense, although I don't agree with it.

But something for those who want the phrase kept in to consider: (from religioustolerance.org)
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Jewish student. You have the choice of
1. Reciting a pledge that an atheist wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, without God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
2. Refusing to recite it, and leaving yourself open to being belittled, harassed, insulted, assaulted, etc.
Would you repeat all the words? Would you skip over the phrase "without God?" Would it make you feel comfortable about being an American?
Likewise, what if you had to say "under Allah"? "under the God and Goddess"? Would you feel like your religious freedom was being violated?
I know I would. Reading this made me see the other side a lot more clearly.