growing up Christian Options

[eunie03]

the reason why i'm posting so many comments about this is cuz i'm in jordan right now and it's a forsaken desert country and i have jack else to do

Keep cool.

let's say that a person decided to be a christian and sacrifice other "worldly temptations" and lived a moral christian life and was happy about it. (cuz true christians are happy about their christian life).  but then he died.  and there was nothing afterwards.  the point is...he doesn't know about how he wasted he life.  he died.  what's more important is...he lived a happy life. just like a secular person would have his "happy" life by partying every other night and getting high every tuesdays.  because he ceases to exist he never realizes that he could've done other things...BUT he STILL lived a happy life.  if one believes that there's nothing afterwards...his only reason to be living would to live happily and do what he wants...right?  well the christian who died lived happily and became a christian in his own will.  he has the same right to be a christian just as a non christian person to be a non christian.  you said..."at least we enjoyed the time we had".  partying might not be the only way to be happy.  a lot of people become VERY happy through worshipping and praising God.  being happy by being high or drunk or having premarital sex can be enjoyable (however for only temporarily during the act).  but praising god and worshipping him leaves christians happy for way longer periods of time.  a lot of times even permanently

But it's pointless. You followed a truth that wasn't... well... true. It's misleading to others who are still around. Yes, you wouldn't be around to know this, but... it's not right, man. Haha.

The world offers a lot Christianity can't. And hope that can actually be substantiated. The hope God offers... it's never without doubt. Unless you just have that much faith, which I commend you for.

[dahoonpride]

Keep cool.
But it's pointless. You followed a truth that wasn't... well... true. It's misleading to others who are still around. Yes, you wouldn't be around to know this, but... it's not right, man. Haha.

The world offers a lot Christianity can't. And hope that can actually be substantiated. The hope God offers... it's never without doubt. Unless you just have that much faith, which I commend you for.

aight then...if you want it the straight-answer logical way...let's put it this way

there's a 50/50 chance that christianity's wrong or right.
Situation 1) There is a God - you believe in God and die.
you go to heaven and live eternally happy.

Situation 2) There is a God - you don't believe in God and die.
you go to hell and live in eternal damnation

Situation 3) There is no God - you believe in God and die.
you lived a happy life as a christian and died. nothing more

Situation 4) There is no God - you don't believe in God and die.
you lived a happy life doing whater u wanted to do and died. nothing more.


sounds kinda selfish and unchristian like to say..but i'll take my chances and go to heaven. if i don't...well at least i lived a happy life.

better than living a happy life then dying to find out i'll end up in hell. OR have a happy secular life. which i would have been just as happy if i lived a christian life....except there was a lesser risk of going to hell.


i know i should never put God or christianity in percentages like this, or become a christian just because it seems safer..... cuz i don't. that's not why i'm christian.
but i'm just explaining to you in a non-christian logical way why being a christian ain't so bad

[eunie03]

i know i should never put God or christianity in percentages like this, or become a christian just because it seems safer.....  cuz i don't.  that's not why i'm christian.
but i'm just explaining to you in a non-christian logical way why being a christian ain't so bad

I'm not saying being a Christian is baddd.... I'm saying you shouldn't just accept what was fed to you. I'd rather be wrong by my own right than follow my parents and my Church like sheep.

And you know, the doctrine can be interpretted in so many ways. I could follow Calvinism, which doesn't necessarily agree with Arminianism. So who goes to heaven? Both require you to accept God (or Jesus or whatever other name you wish to give) as your savior; but both live different lives, and follow different beliefs. So who goes to heaven?

The fact of the matter is, Christianity and the Bible are so obscure and vague. If we're gonna talk logically, the argument that makes the MOST sense is the idea that we're finished after this.

But this world isn't very logical.

[DirtDiva]

First of all, Jusun, it is so encouraging to see the faith of the guy who started all of this. Seriously.

Second of all, yeah, I was "raised" Christian, but I made my own choices about it. Being a Christian doesn't mean going to church, it means having a personal relationship with Jesus... and you decide that for yourself.

I agree with all of the above! ^

I sooo agree with you!! I was "raised" Christian too and as a kid i was always forced to go to church...and my parents didn't let us see Pg-13 or rate R movies...then we stopped going to church (it's been 5 years since i went to my church) and my parents let me make my own choices (except for the fact that i still can't drink acohol because i am under age lol) but they realize i am an adult (20 yrs old) and I am wise enough to make a decision...and the hwole Christian thing, I am still a Christian, I can never see myself no believeing in God...my parents didn't make me believe in him, It's hard to explain, but I think once the Lord makes a home in your heart, it's hard to kick him out!!!! (not that i would want to) I really like being a christian, I feel something that I can;t explain everytime I talk to another believer or if I join a fellowship or a Harvest Crusade...it's an awesome feeling.

[Azn Kid from NY]

oh man.....i've debated about this so many times before im getting sick of this topic...

[*disco infiltrator*]

^ Please don't spam.

Ok. People can be perfectly moral in their own right and live happy, fullfilling lives without trying to make God happy. I'm an atheist, and really, I'm more moral than any of the oh-so-wonderful Christians at my school. I would rather live to make myself happy than follow what someone else thinks I should do. Really, that would make me a lot happier. I wouldn't have to feel bad anytime I did something. I live by my own morals, and really, just because I'm atheist doesn't mean I'm horrible and sad and immoral. That's such a sad misconception and I really hate when people think that.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do any drugs, I'm a virgin, I've never committed a crime...How immoral am I? Just because I don't believe means I don't have as good of morals as you? Just because I don't believe means my life has no point and it's less of a happy life than yours? No. My life is fine, and I'm no less happy than anyone else. My life has purpose. My purpose is not to spend my life trying to please God, but to please myself. My goal is not to get into Heaven, it is to spend my life making myself and others around me happy. I don't live to please someone who I can't even have proof of existing. I don't live to be rewarded. Personally, I would think that would be a pretty sad way to live. That's more immoral to me - that's like sucking up to someone to get a higher position in a job or something. I live for myself.

This post was directed at dahoonpride cause that's the vibe I'm getting.

[uLoVeMikeRoch]

Well said Mipadi, I totally agree, Same values. Except I never joined a study group or anything. Hell, I'm not even christian or any branch.

[mzteriouzme007]

God is real
Heaven and hell IS real
and waiting to see doesn't help you - _ -x

[eunie03]

God is real
Heaven and hell IS real
and waiting to see doesn't help you - _ -x

Wow, gee. Really?

[dahoonpride]

^ Please don't spam.

Ok. People can be perfectly moral in their own right and live happy, fullfilling lives without trying to make God happy. I'm an atheist, and really, I'm more moral than any of the oh-so-wonderful Christians at my school. I would rather live to make myself happy than follow what someone else thinks I should do. Really, that would make me a lot happier. I wouldn't have to feel bad anytime I did something. I live by my own morals, and really, just because I'm atheist doesn't mean I'm horrible and sad and immoral. That's such a sad misconception and I really hate when people think that.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do any drugs, I'm a virgin, I've never committed a crime...How immoral am I? Just because I don't believe means I don't have as good of morals as you? Just because I don't believe means my life has no point and it's less of a happy life than yours? No. My life is fine, and I'm no less happy than anyone else. My life has purpose. My purpose is not to spend my life trying to please God, but to please myself. My goal is not to get into Heaven, it is to spend my life making myself and others around me happy. I don't live to please someone who I can't even have proof of existing. I don't live to be rewarded. Personally, I would think that would be a pretty sad way to live. That's more immoral to me - that's like sucking up to someone to get a higher position in a job or something. I live for myself.

This post was directed at dahoonpride cause that's the vibe I'm getting.

well first of all, i never said atheists were all immoral and sad and horrible. and i never said all christians are perfectly moral and perfect. there are so many freaking ppl that call themselves chrstians though they're really not. just cuz they go to church don't mean they're christian. not all "christians" truly saved, not all muslims fast during the ramadan and pray five times a day, not all annihilists have killed themselves yet, not all buddhists worship buddha. all i said was to eunie is that with living with all these different types of ppl christians obviously stood out as more happy, moral, and bright for their future compared to the others. and like you..of course there are exceptions. i'm just saying the majority of the people.

lots of people think christians are selfish and only wanna become christians cuz they get to go to heaven. what kind of bullcrap is that? unless one doesn't become one himself they will NEVER understand the joy and fullness they get when worshipping God. Our first priority and desire is to worship God and glorify him. heaven's just the reward. true seekers of God are rewarded. true seekers of heaven don't get to know God. i have NEVER worshipped god so that i wanted to go heaven. worshipping god in itself was an incredibly happy moment for me which i enjoyed. if it was only to go to heaven...why choose christianity? there's thousands of other religions that offer the way to heaven. other religions with more freedom to do whatever i please.

true christians don't choose heaven first, cuz there's millions of other religions to do that in. true christians always puts God first, and heaven as a tremendously grateful gift.

you said your purpose in life was to be happy and live your life. well i never said anything against it and i won't. i'm just feel bad cuz ppl like you believe that there's nothing afterwards. when i was a non christian i occasionally thought of after death and i felt horrible. the fact that we vanquish into nothing....all the ppl we loved and cared for, everything we ever cared for....just completely useless. it'll be horrible to think of this in the deathbed...just waiting to die...and forever be gone.

and about what u said. we ain't sucking up to a person in a higher position. we're worshipping God who created us. when you're nice to your parents..does that mean you're sucking up to them? no..it's cuz they're your parents and they conceived you. you have to be grateful to them and show your respect.

[dahoonpride]

I'm not saying being a Christian is baddd.... I'm saying you shouldn't just accept what was fed to you. I'd rather be wrong by my own right than follow my parents and my Church like sheep.

And you know, the doctrine can be interpretted in so many ways. I could follow Calvinism, which doesn't necessarily agree with Arminianism. So who goes to heaven? Both require you to accept God (or Jesus or whatever other name you wish to give) as your savior; but both live different lives, and follow different beliefs. So who goes to heaven?

The fact of the matter is, Christianity and the Bible are so obscure and vague. If we're gonna talk logically, the argument that makes the MOST sense is the idea that we're finished after this.

But this world isn't very logical.

the main reason why there's so many denominations is cuz there were disputes about stupid little rituals and about how they should do it. for example...whether ppl should be baptized when they're born, or only when they become a christian. when ppl are baptzied whether they should be sprinkled in water only completely dipped. do you honsetly think God cares how they get baptized? he only looks for the heart. all these division things happened cuz of ppl just had different ideas. not every town council agree on everything. hell the government's always freaking divided among reps. and dem. does that mean one's compltley wrong and one's completely right? they both serve the same purpose to serve the ppl (well in theory anyways), but do it a little differently.

God only looks for if one completely believes in him, that Jesus died for our sins on the cross, and glorify him through it. i don't consider myself in any denomination. i'm still confused with the differences. it's cuz i had to move countries too many times and most third world muslim countries don't have a large variety of churches. but i ain't worried that my calvinist friend is going to heaven and i'm not. as long as my calvinist friend believes in god and glorifies him and i do the same...i know for sure i'll be seeing him around after we die

[Spirited Away]

not all buddhists worship buddha. all i said was to eunie is that with living with all these different types of ppl christians obviously stood out as more happy, moral, and bright for their future compared to the others. and like you..of course there are exceptions. i'm just saying the majority of the people.

Not all Buddhists worship Buddha but can still be called Buddhists because Buddhism is NOT all about worshiping; it's also a way of life. A Buddhist acknowledges the way of life and trying to live it first, then worship. The former, more important and more necessary to the religion than the latter. So, this example doesn't fit with the rest of your analogies. I only wanted to point this out because I don't want you to misunderstand the religion.

Your comment about Christians are more happy, more moral with bright futures...etc, is truly biased, somewhat arrogant and cynical. I'd like to discuss with you how you came to such a conclusion. In that respect, I would like to share my opinion that Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Christians and all the rest have the equal opportunity to be happy and moral because it's more dependent on one's outlook on life rather than one's religion.

About morality, too many people think that religion and morality are one and the same, when in fact, morality existed long before the coming of religion. Religion now champions morality because people cannot understand that Right and wrong are human instinct, and that Good and evil, usually affiliated with religion, comes later. Our survival depends on right and wrong, and our living is beyond good and evil. To say that people of one religion is more moral than the rest is so very problematic that I don't even know where to begin debunking it. So, if you would indulge me, explain why you think Christians are more moral.

Now you said Heaven is a reward for glorifying God and believing that Jesus died for our sins, I'd like to question that, too. Christians say that their God is all loving and all forgiving, if He is all that then why does He only rewards those who glorify Him and the Son? Doesn't that means He only loves few and spites others? After all, if one was truly "forgiving" in all aspects, then one would be able to forgive all things in all ways, including disbelief.

you said your purpose in life was to be happy and live your life.  well i never said anything against it and i won't.  i'm just feel bad cuz ppl like you believe that there's nothing afterwards.  when i was a non christian i occasionally thought of after death and i felt horrible.  the fact that we vanquish into nothing....all the ppl we loved and cared for, everything we ever cared for....just completely useless.  it'll be horrible to think of this in the deathbed...just waiting to die...and forever be gone. 

I really, really get irritated when Christians say that they feel bad that I'll go to Hell. This annoyance is directed towards the pity that demeans all that I believe in. I would never say "Christians believe blindly" because that's unfair and shows intorlerance of others. Thus, I'd like the same respect and consideration in turn, but a lot of Christians just can't give it. This is the reason, I think, why so many people (in the free world) bash Christians. Tolerance works both ways.

I'm not Christian, but when I think about Death, I think about Life. I'll admit though, that I get sad when I think of the possibility that a person just dies with no afterlife to look forward to, but I also think life is so full of wonders of love and joy, even hate, that I believe that Death is a just end. Nothing "horrible" about it. (Off note, to those who know my views on capital punishment, this is why I feel what I feel about murderers.)

*shrug* He just doesn't need anyone who doesn't believe in him in his world. Who would?

One who is claimed to be all forgiving and loving, in all respect, should.

It seems logical to me that God created life. Science has done more to disprove itself than to disprove the Bible. I haven't been introduced facts that made the heterotroph hypothesis the definitive reason for life on this planet. But I do believe that God created life on this planet.

I will not contest that a Creator made life because I wouldn't know how, but I think science disproves the Bible as much as the Bible disproves science.

God doesn't make us suffer. Other people do. God gave us free will because he loves us. People that do evil are the ones that cause suffering. They are the ones who have no place in heaven.

Since this is a famous saying, explain to me exactly how giving us free will equates to loving us.

It's because people have free will that people make others suffer. It's because of free will that what is wrong persists to challenge what is right. Yes, I am saying that free will as much the cause of suffering as it is the cause of our happiness.

[eunie03]

the main reason why there's so many denominations is cuz there were disputes about stupid little rituals and about how they should do it.  for example...whether ppl should be baptized when they're born, or only when they become a christian.  when ppl are baptzied whether they should be sprinkled in water only completely dipped.  do you honsetly think God cares how they get baptized?  he only looks for the heart.  all these division things happened cuz of ppl just had different ideas.  not every town council agree on everything.  hell the government's always freaking divided among reps. and dem.  does that mean one's compltley wrong and one's completely right?  they both serve the same purpose to serve the ppl (well in theory anyways), but do it a little differently.

God only looks for if one completely believes in him, that Jesus died for our sins on the cross, and glorify him through it.  i don't consider myself in any denomination.  i'm still confused with the differences. it's cuz i had to move countries too many times and most third world muslim countries don't have a large variety of churches.  but i ain't worried that my calvinist friend is going to heaven and i'm not.  as long as my calvinist friend believes in god and glorifies him and i do the same...i know for sure i'll be seeing him around after we die

Well, then what's the point of even going to church and getting baptized and taking part in communion (which is also a contraversial issue amongst denominations) or even being a part of a religion at all?

One who is claimed to be all forgiving and loving, in all respect, should.

With all due respect (and I do respect you because I've seen you around the debate forums), one has to ask to be forgived in order to be forgiven. It's not like the grace was ever denied; It was always there. The person just didn't accept it.

As far as free will goes... like you said, it's as much a cause for our suffering as our happiness. But then who's fault is that? Would you rather God hadn't given us free will, and caused us to follow him around like prisoners? (Although, in every aspect, that is what Christianity is.... Haha)

But in my heart, I believe he wanted us to make the choice for ourselves. So we knew it was by our own conviction. You know that saying? "If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back..." Yeah, you know the story. I'm sorry to put something so adolescent into this discussion. It just seemed to fit.

[Spirited Away]

With all due respect (and I do respect you because I've seen you around the debate forums), one has to ask to be forgived in order to be forgiven. It's not like the grace was ever denied; It was always there. The person just didn't accept it.

One who is claimed to be all forgiving should forgive, whether or not it is asked. Forgiving when forgiveness is not asked takes a big heart. Is this God capable of it?

Oh, thanks by the way. I'm not supposed to be posting all that much, but the debate forum is one of my favs.

[eunie03]

One who is claimed to be all forgiving should forgive, whether or not it is asked. Forgiving when forgiveness is not asked takes a big heart. Is this God capable of it?

I'm sure he's capable, as the claim is he's capable of anything. But if a mother gives a son a present, and the son doesn't open it, the mother's not gonna tear it open for him. Is the mother, who went through the thought and concern to get him the gift the one without heart? Or is it the son, who never gave mind?

Oh, thanks by the way. I'm not supposed to be posting all that much, but the debate forum is one of my favs.

Haha, you're welcome.

[*mipadi*]

I'm sure he's capable, as the claim is he's capable of anything. But if a mother gives a son a present, and the son doesn't open it, the mother's not gonna tear it open for him. Is the mother, who went through the thought and concern to get him the gift the one without heart? Or is it the son, who never gave mind?

I'm not sure I see the analogy. Wouldn't your example be more akin to God willingly giving forgiveness, but a person not accepting it?

Unless you mean to say that the gift is love, in which case God is giving it, but it is not accepted; however, I still don't find that to be a perfect analogy with God willingly forgiving.

[eunie03]

I'm not sure I see the analogy. Wouldn't your example be more akin to God willingly giving forgiveness, but a person not accepting it?

Unless you mean to say that the gift is love, in which case God is giving it, but it is not accepted; however, I still don't find that to be a perfect analogy with God willingly forgiving.

If it had to do with willingness, the mother would've offered to give him a gift, not actually given it to him. But you're right, it would fit more along the lines of love. But they go hand in hand, don't they?

To me, anyway.

[*mipadi*]

If it had to do with willingness, the mother would've offered to give him a gift, not actually given it to him. But you're right, it would fit more along the lines of love. But they go hand in hand, don't they?

To me, anyway.

They do, but Fae is discussing the point that if God is so great, he'd willingly forgive out of sheer goodness, rather than making one ask explicitly.

[Spirited Away]

As far as free goes... like you said, it's as much a cause for our suffering as our happiness. But then who's fault is that? Would you rather God hadn't given us free will, and caused us to follow him around like prisoners? (Although, in every aspect, that is what Christianity is.... Haha)

But in my heart, I believe he wanted us to make the choice for ourselves. So we knew it was by our own conviction. You know that saying? "If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back..." Yeah, you know the story. I'm sorry to put something so adolescent into this discussion. It just seemed to fit.

Who's at fault is our suffering and happiness? Free will, which came from God. We wouldn't be following God around like prisoners because we would be happy since He allows us to be with Him. If loving God and following God tantamounts to imprisonment, then why do so many Christians do so? Why would we want Heaven, an imprisonment? I would rather God does what people claim He does: gift us with free will, but forgive us for all that free will causes, which again includes disbelief.

The saying does fit, if you love something, let it go. However, if it doesn't come back, don't condemn it to the blackest part of your world, which is Hell.

I'm sure he's capable, as the claim is he's capable of anything. But if a mother gives a son a present, and the son doesn't open it, the mother's not gonna tear it open for him. Is the mother, who went through the thought and concern to get him the gift the one without heart? Or is it the son, who never gave mind?
Haha, you're welcome. 

The all forgiving, all loving mother, regardless, should forgive the son for not accepting the present. It doesn't seem fair, I know, but God is claimed to be all loving, all forgiving. Such a claimed should bear some proof.



and, yea, what Michael said, too.

[eunie03]

The saying does fit, if you love something, let it go. However, if it doesn't come back, don't condemn it to the blackest part of your world, which is Hell.

Yeah, I don't like the Hell aspect of Christianity so much either.

They do, but Fae is discussing the point that if God is so great, he'd willingly forgive out of sheer goodness, rather than making one ask explicitly.

It's not so much asking for it explicitly, as desiring it. I'm sure none of us do a wrong thing, wanting not to be forgiven. But there are certain rules and creeds we have to follow if you're a part of the Christian faith. One has to adapt to what god says is right or wrong, and one might not necessarily agree with them, but that's tough. If one accepts Jesus as his savior, one has to follow his laws. You can't just go and live your own life with no God, and expect to go to heaven, because quite simply: If you believed in a heaven, you would have to have believed in God. If you don't believe that, you're not following Christianity (And don't get me wrong. You might be perfectly right for it. But that's another topic)

[Spirited Away]

you guys post too fast.

It's not so much asking for it explicitly, as desiring it. I'm sure none of us do a wrong thing, wanting not to be forgiven. But there are certain rules and creeds we have to follow if you're a part of the Christian faith. One has to adapt to what god says is right or wrong, and one might not necessarily agree with them, but that's tough. If one accepts Jesus as his savior, one has to follow his laws. You can't just go and live your own life with no God, and expect to go to heaven, because quite simply: If you believed in a heaven, you would have to have believed in a god. If you don't believe that, you're not following Christianity (and you might be perfectly right for it. But that's another topic)

Why would someone, like me for example, desire forgiveness for a fault that free will, the gift, allowed me to make? God gave the gift of Free Will, but condemns us for utilizing it?

in other words, why fault the choice free will allowed me to make?

[eunie03]

you guys post too fast.
Why would someone, like me for example, desire forgiveness for a fault that free will, the gift, allowed me to make? God gave the gift of Free Will, but condemns us for utilizing it? 

But free will doesn't mean everything you do is right. It's not a ticket to do whatever you want. I mean... it is. But free will just means you can make the right choice or the wrong choice. He didn't lead us choose the right one, nor lead us to make the wrong one. If we make the wrong choice (by our own accord), we're not exactly gonna get rewarded for it. If we expect to... why do we even hold ourselves back from all those sins? It's true most people are inherently good people, but there are simply those who aren't. It's not for me to judge, but honestly, if everyone was good, we'd be in some sort of Pleasantville or Utopia. I'd like to see you in heaven, I would. Whether you believed in God or not. But I wouldn't want a mass murderer living next door. I wouldn't really want to see him burn in hell either, but I'm not the one making the judgements.

[Spirited Away]

But free will doesn't mean everything you do is right. It's not a ticket to do whatever you want. I mean... it is. But free will just means you can make the right choice or the wrong choice. He didn't lead us choose the right one, nor lead us to make the wrong one. If we make the wrong choice (by our own accord), we're not exactly gonna get rewarded for it. If we expect to... why do we even hold ourselves back from all those sins? It's true most people are inherently good people, but there are simply those who aren't. It's not for me to judge, but honestly, if everyone was good, we'd be in some sort of Pleasantville or Utopia. I'd like to see you in heaven, I would. Whether you believed in God or not. But I wouldn't want a mass murderer living next door. I wouldn't really want to see him burn in hell either, but I'm not the one making the judgements.

I'm not saying that we should be rewarded for making wrong choices, but I'm saying that we shouldn't be punished for eternity for making those wrong choices either, excluding those who actually abuse free will to the extreme. Lets say you and I are best friends and you gave me a flower and told me I can do anything with it, I'd have the following choices: to keep it for myself, to give it to someone else, or to throw it away. If I choose to give it to someone else, it would be because I thought it would make someone else as happy as you've made me. However, if I chose to throw it away, it's not because I don't love you or care for you, it's because I just don't like flowers. You can't make me like flowers and you shouldn't stop being friends with me just because I threw away your flower. It was my choice to throw away your flower, a choice you gave me when you said I can do anything with it.

[eunie03]

I'm not saying that we should be rewarded for making wrong choices, but I'm saying that we shouldn't be punished for eternity for making those wrong choices either, excluding those who actually abuse free will to the extreme. Lets say you and I are best friends and you gave me a flower and told me I can do anything with it, I'd have the following choices: to keep it for myself, to give it to someone else, or to throw it away. If I choose to give it to someone else, it would be because I thought it would make someone else as happy as you've made me. However, if I chose to throw it away, it's not because I don't love you or care for you, it's because I just don't like flowers. You can't make me like flowers and you shouldn't stop being friends with me just because I threw away your flower. It was my choice to throw away your flower, a choice you gave me when you said I can do anything with it.

I see what you're saying, but in your example, all those choices were -good- choices, with explanations that meant well behind all of them. It's not always so black and white, though.

And maybe I'm wrong, but if I feel like I would want you to keep the flowers even if you hated them, out of thought for me.

Is it just me, or is God starting to sound like an overbearing boyfriend?

[Spirited Away]

I see what you're saying, but in your example, all those choices were -good- choices, with explanations that meant well behind all of them. It's not always so black and white, though.

And maybe I'm wrong, but if I feel like I would want you to keep the flowers even if you hated them, out of thought for me.

Well, not all of us are bad, that's why the choices were good. Just because I don't believe in the Christian God doesn't mean I'll rape, pillage, and murder. I'm as moral minded as anyone else who's not raping, pillaging and murdering or hurting others on purpose. I'm just someone who makes mistakes as I live my life and I would like all those mistakes to be forgiven, but not at the expense of what I believe in. Things aren't black and white, but they needn't be complex either.

I completely understand, but unfortunately, out of thought for me, you shouldn't have given me a flower in the first place, knowing that I don't like flowers. I'd cherish it if you'd ask it first of me, but you gave me the free will to do with it as I like. As God, you just forced me to keep the flower out of guilt. I would keep it to please you, but in doing so, my free will is limited. That end contradicts with the Gift of free will.