Christian Propaganda Options

[technicolour]

and why must the bible be a source? we're not talking about christianity itself, right? we're talking about the system of organised religion and using it to influence the followers to do non-religious things...

We are talking about Christianity [The Bible and what it has to say about stuff.] itself. YOU are talking about the "system of organiZed religion".

Today was my church's July 4th celebration service. The pastor took this opportunity to put George W. Bush on a pedestal, slam gay marriage, condemn abortion, and basically tell us all how to vote

He threw outrageous percentages without citing his sources (ie., he told us that 90% of Americans believe in Christianity!), he went on and on with random facts that he couldn't prove. And the congregation flocks to him, because he's the PASTOR and that means they should do anything he says.

This is what we are supposed to be "debating" about. The Christian beliefs.

[sadolakced acid]

My question - why are people so easily swayed? Why do people believe such nonsense without being given a reason to believe it? And why do pastors take advantage of their time behind a pulpit as an opportunity to spout propaganda to thousands and thousands every year?

[Spirited Away]

yup I don't think any other book in the world has as much moral teaching as the Bible

Because it includes similar moral teachings other religions have in their holy books. But eh, this debate isn't supposed to be about this... but I guess I could make it relevant if I tried.

[technicolour]

sadolakced acid Posted Jul 4 2005, 11:26 PM
  QUOTE(Libertie @ Jul 4 2005, 12:01 AM)

My question - why are people so easily swayed? Why do people believe such nonsense without being given a reason to believe it? And why do pastors take advantage of their time behind a pulpit as an opportunity to spout propaganda to thousands and thousands every year?

Are you saying that I am easily swayed? Pastor's aren't sprouting the "propaganda" you are thinking. They are simply reminding that the Bible DOES SAY THINGS about Homosexuality and Abortion. The reason that these people BELIEVE these things is because they have Faith. They believe that Jesus is real, and that his Teachings are worth their time and life.

now.

Why do you believe stuff that the WORLD wants you to believe. (Religion being organized and whatever. Saying Religion, in general, is crap.) Why are you so easily swayed into the Liberal (i'm guessing that you are.) ways of doing things.

Ok im going to quit posting tonight. I was working on a vexel and I would like to continue to work on it. I'll look at this later.

[Spirited Away]

Are you saying that I am easily swayed?

I don't think that's what he meant.

He's saying that what he has been saying is relevant to the topic at hand because he is answering to the topic starter's questions.

[JlIaTMK]

I find that people [from the beginning of time] have needed something to believe in and lead them. Whether it be for the good or for the bad. There have been religious leaders, national leaders, etc. etc. you name it. Hm, people are dependent and simple. What more can I say.

[Mulder]

i dont really see the point in this anymore, but here i go.
there will always be bad religious leaders. some that use their religion to grab others and obtain power, some who molest kids...i dont know. it has nothing to do with christianity itself. humans are inherently bad. we have a free will. there will always be some that take advantage of believers religious conviction for their own selfish purposes.

so: why do pastors use thier power for political purposes? because it has been done for millenia. christianity has often been used as the puppet of kings bent on conquering a nation, or popes wishing for more wealth.

i just answered your question then. can we please end this?

[Spirited Away]

[size=1]i dont really see the point in this anymore, but here i go.
there will always be bad religious leaders. some that use their religion to grab others and obtain power, some who molest kids...i dont know. it has nothing to do with christianity itself. humans are inherently bad. we have a free will. there will always be some that take advantage of believers religious conviction for their own selfish purposes.

Wait, are you saying that everyone is bad because of free will?

[Paradox of Life]

How can the Bible not say what is right or wrong? Religions have a Bible or Torah or Koran and etc etc. Their Book is the "rules for the religion". The Bible says that those things are WRONG.

Yeah, so what insomniac said, I'm not going to argue about the "truths" of the Bible. I'm aethiest, so I just think the whole thing is false to put it simply. If you're Christian, go ahead and let your opinions be swayed by the Bible's rules.

People are easily swayed if they believe it's true. THEIR BELIEFS. People do want to fit in, but in Church it's your beliefs that matter. In fact, being alone has nothing really to do with being swayed at all. If they believe it's true then they'll go for it. Cults are what you're thinking about. [the waco thing..etc etc.] The Pastor is actually TEACHING the Bible. You just have to listen and know what he's saying.

Exactly, but are you violating rules of being a Christian if you support gay marriages and you're pro-choice about abortion? Does that not make you Christian? Do you have to listen and obey a pastor to still remain Christian?

Sorry if this is getting redundant, but can someone explain to me exactly what this debate is about? It seems like I'm/everyone is getting sidetracked.

[crazymonkey1785]

if it were ok to be gay then why were the first people on this earth a man and a woman?????

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin

and do you REALLY think it's ok to kill an innocent baby and not even give it a chance to live!! it's crazy that someone is going to kill a baby or be gay, it's rediculous!!!!

[Spirited Away]

if it were ok to be gay then why were the first people on this earth a man and a woman?????  and do you REALLY think it's ok to kill an innocent baby and not even give it a chance to live!! it's crazy that someone is going to kill a baby or be gay, it's rediculous!!!!

Read the whole thread and don't rant.

RULES OF DEBATE< read it please.

[bebopspike14]

you cited a bible quote saying that gay fornication was a sin. how do you know if that wsa in the original bible? who's to say it wasn't added in by geutenburg or king james?

Well, bibles translated and updated by real christians wouldn't have this problem because of the holy spirit within them. The holy spirit serves to guide christians in their walk with god, and would also aid in this task. Making the process so much more free of human error.

and the point of this debate, if i'm not mistaken, it why religious figures often use thier status for reasons other than religion.

take the crusades, sponsered by the pope. purpose: gain good farmland in and around asia minor.

You must understand, the pope was always a heretical political unfounded figure.

Catholic doctrine alleges that Matthew 16:18 teaches that the church was built on Peter, hence, the pope.

“I say unto you, that you are Peter [petros - rock], and upon this rock [petra] I will build my church.”

1)Petros (Peter) is a masculine gender noun; petra (rock) is a feminine form. The change in grammatical form is not incidental.

2)Petros suggests a small rock, whereas petra indicates a boulder. The contrast is significant.

3)Jesus employed the second person, su (you), in addressing Peter, but He changed to the third person, taute (this) when referring to the rock.

Therefore, based on a bit of greek grammar, the entire lineage of popes was just a big idiotic mistake that the catholics refuse to admit as their blunder.

Which is part of the reason why Popes so freely misuse their powers. They have no foundation in christian truth, and their doctrine is a mere conglomerate of lies designed to politically innoculate those who follow it.

likewise, religon can be used to stir people to revolt. attaching a religious reason to a war, like william the bastard did before 1066, allows you what seems like a moral advantage, allowing him to become william the conquerer.

That's true, but William of Normandy wasn't a true christian. Besides, if popes were doing it....

If popes used their religous powers for political gain, then political leaders could abuse the same weakness rampant among the weak minded.

we must take into account, however, that this is organised religion. organized religion is inheriently sinful, because it relies upon sinful humans for direction. if a catholic bishop is capable of being gay, then a congregation's pastor is certainly able to be corrupt, and use his power for the wrong reasons.

The Catholic bishop and the Pastor thing is because they are weak christians. They have all the doctrine, all the things and etiquette and whatnot instilled on their minds, but they just don't live out their lives for Christ. There's no faith, just the religious structure.

in organised religion, people put thier trust and faith in thier pastor or leader. they trust them to make decisions for them, to tell them what do to. (confessions, etc.) this will work if the leader is incorruptable, like god supposedly is, but when it is a human, then you must assume that there is a possibility that they are corrupt.

But true christians would never place a pastor a a priest or whatever as their leader. If their leader was god, then how can you go wrong? He is incorruptable and will not lead us astray.

a corrupted leader with followers will fall to the temptation to use these followers. Some of the followers will blindly follow him- and therefore it works. if a pastor told his congregation to go kill someone, there would probably be a person or two of the congregation toat takes it seriously (if the message is imbedded with religous purpose). This has been used by islamic religous leaders, so it is no stretch that christian religious leaders could use this as well.

But followers who trust god as their leader would be aware of what they are doing. And god would use the holy spirit to tell us if our orders from a corrupted figure are wrong or not.

so: why do pastors use thier power for political purposes? because it has been done for millenia. christianity has often been used as the puppet of kings bent on conquering a nation, or popes wishing for more wealth.

Because they are without faith, and unwilling to abandon their simplistic will and accept a part in the great will of god. Yes, Political figures have abused the blind faith, but that was because the doctrine did not prepare the believing against such a thing. The doctrine of catholicism placed all faith in the pope, who "Held the keys of heaven" and "controlled one's salvation".

If they didn't follow, then they were so sure that they wouldn't go to heaven, that they would mute out the holy spirit's quiet voice in their minds, abandon reason, and rally to the leaders.

[*Libertie*]

To everyone who has started the argument over gay marriage: This is not a debate over whether gay marriage is wrong or not. There are plenty of threads discussing that topic, and this isn't one of them. Nor is it a debate over abortion. Yes, the bible condemns both of these actions, but for a pastor to say that it doesn't belong in our country? Not ALL of our country is Christian. Not ALL of our country believes that these actions are wrong. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. People should stop trying to force morals on people that they don't have.

To the person/people citing the bible - that isn't a relevant argument here. I KNOW what the bible says. Read above paragraph. I'm talking about people who AREN'T Christians.

Are you saying that I am easily swayed? Pastor's aren't sprouting the "propaganda" you are thinking. They are simply reminding that the Bible DOES SAY THINGS about Homosexuality and Abortion. The reason that these people BELIEVE these things is because they have Faith. They believe that Jesus is real, and that his Teachings are worth their time and life.

No. I never said there was anything wrong with having an opinion. I said that having an opinion because someone TELLS you to have that opinion is a very ignorant way to live. You have obviously thought this through very well, so I would assume that you aren't one of the people to whom I am referring. And my pastor isn't "reminding" us. He's literally telling us that if we vote for any party other than the Republican party, we're going to hell. I'm not exaggerating; this is nearly an exact quote. And when he says this, he is met with thunderous applause. I don't think this is just a coincidence, that all these people are just Republicans to start out with. Many of these people can't even come up with a reason as to why they believe what they do. It's either "the bible says so" or "the pastor says so". I'm simply saying that their opinions would be much better supported if they would get rid of their security blankets and make educated decisions by themselves. If they stop to actually think about it without outside interruption and decide that they still have the same opinion, then so be it. At least it's their own opinion now, and not someone else's.

Why do you believe stuff that the WORLD wants you to believe. (Religion being organized and whatever. Saying Religion, in general, is crap.) Why are you so easily swayed into the Liberal (i'm guessing that you are.) ways of doing things.

You must have missed the post where I said that I've been to churches that don't shove opinions down your throat. Religion is not crap; I am a Christian myself, or I wouldn't be wasting my time in a church. I was not 'swayed' into the Liberal ways. I'm only being open-minded. Yes, it's true that a Christian would not INVOLVE himself in gay marriage or in abortion. I know I'm not getting married to a woman or having an abortion anytime soon. But I will definitely vote for acceptance on these two issues because I know that not everyone is a Christian; therefore not everyone has the same rules as Christians do. Call me a terrible Christian if you want, but I'm not giving up my beliefs in order to please someone.

[*kryogenix*]

you are mistaken.  the crusades were masqueraded as an attempt to save the 'holy land', when the kings simply wanted farmland, the the pope obliged them.

Untrue. Why do you insist on making false statements without backing them up first?

and why must the bible be a source?  we're not talking about christianity itself, right? we're talking about the system of organised religion and using it to influence the followers to do non-religious things...

for example?

and, might i ask, when did i say 'what if?' everything i said was based off of history. and real history, not biblical history.

what's the difference?



let's do this in the bible thread, not here.

[technicolour]

let's do this in the bible thread, not here.

The Bible thread he started?

Yes, the bible condemns both of these actions, but for a pastor to say that it doesn't belong in our country? Not ALL of our country is Christian. Not ALL of our country believes that these actions are wrong. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. People should stop trying to force morals on people that they don't have.

So the country isn't all Christian. But a Christian president got elected. I think
you are over re-acting about the whole forcing-morlas-down-our-throats-with-hope-that-some-people-will-listen. A pastor's job is to teach the word of God, aka BIBLE, and to remind us of the difference between the WORLD and GOD.

I've been to a few churches where the pastor is very reserved and doesn't force-feed propaganda to his congregation. I wish all churches were like that. But I don't want to switch churches because of this; I very much enjoy playing in the church orchestra and don't want to give that up.. plus it gives me a gateway to meet young flutists who take lessons from me (I know, that may sound greedy.. -.-'). I just wish he would learn to contain himself and stop trying to make people change if there's nothing wrong with them. I'm honestly thinking about writing him a letter expressing my concerns.

Ok. SO that isn't the Pastor's style. SO WHAT? Apparently the Church you went to and the Pastor likes to do those things. My pastor reminds us of what the people who are running stand for and he reminds us also what the Bible says as well. If you dont like him doing that then just leave.

No. I never said there was anything wrong with having an opinion.

No. You didn't. The other dude did though. Saying i'm easily swayed. Ha.

[*mipadi*]

So the country isn't all Christian. But a Christian president got elected.

Surely you are not implying that the whole country must become Christian, and follow Christian ideals, because a Christian was elected into office?

[technicolour]

No. I'm saying that He is going to be doing Christian things. And if you dont like it tough, wait till '08.

[Mulder]

seriously... does that mean if a hindu president got elected, we'd all have to be hindu?

we're getting way off topic. theres already a topic on abortion, one on homosexuality, and one on the bible. so...what exactly is the point of this debate?

[technicolour]

Not everybody has to do the Christian ways of things.

Hindu? Where did that come from

[Mulder]

So the country isn't all Christian. But a Christian president got elected

hindu...because....eh. it was on my mind? but i just meant that according to whoever said that quote that if the next president were hindu then we'd all have to be hindu. my mind works in strange ways....

[sadolakced acid]

No. I'm saying that He is going to be doing Christian things. And if you dont like it tough, wait till '08.

no, not tough.

if we don't like it, it's why we have a legislature and a supreme court. it why we have impeachments.

f**k this. i'm going to get elected president under the pretense of being christian, and then order every church burned. and just tell you, tough. wait 4 years.

and please, DEBATE ABOUT THE THREAD.

the thread is about why people (pastors) use thier religious influence to influence people for political reasons. this is not a thread about religion persay, but a thread about religious people doing nonreligious things.


sprinkle-the-stars, i wasn't saying you were easiley swayed. i quoted that from the first post, because you were insisting that the bible was relavent to this thread. however, the prompt question in this topic asked not whether the pastor was preaching christian things, or if christianity were correct, but (as the quote said) why religious people will use thier power to sway people for nonreligious purposes.

[sadolakced acid]

double post. so shoot me.

Well, bibles translated and updated by real christians wouldn't have this problem because of the holy spirit within them. The holy spirit serves to guide christians in their walk with god, and would also aid in this task. Making the process so much more free of human error.

what if the bibles were translated by false christians? like, king james, who wanted to use it to conquer a country?

Untrue. Why do you insist on making false statements without backing them up first?

the original crusade, maybe. but latter- it was for farmland.

[technicolour]

ok
double post, eh, our posts are getting long. they can't argue.

1. My name is Kristina

2. The bible does have a part in this

the thread is about why people (pastors) use thier religious influence to influence people for political reasons. this is not a thread about religion persay, but a thread about religious people doing nonreligious things.

And I have been debating about the darn thread. Pastors aren't using their religious standings to make sure people HAVE to vote one way. They are comparing what the BIBLE says to what the ELECTION PEOPLE say. [the people who are running.] Pastors = church = Christianity [in this case] = Bible.

And what exactly non religious things are they doing? They aren't doing anything wrong.

the original crusade, maybe. but latter- it was for farmland.

I'd love to know about this too.

[Mulder]

if we don't like it, it's why we have a legislature and a supreme court. it why we have impeachments.

not trying to get off topic, but our legislature has an overwhelming republican majority. which means that unless a bunch of republicans suddenly go against bush ( which may happen), bush can get almost any law he wants passed.


now...about the topic at hand. i really dont see the problem in citing quotes from the bible. they might support the pastor's actions (not that i think they were right...because I dont). bush does support christian ideals, such as pro-life, anti gay marriage, republicanism... so that would explain why a christian pastor would be spouting christian ideals..

[*disco infiltrator*]

1) i think it's funny how you love billie joe when he's so openly against christianity and george bush. that just..struck me as odd.

2) people shouldn't vote based on their religion. her pastor should not have said anything about voting for certain people based on their religious beliefs. people shouldn't believe certain things because their pastor tells them. this is why i like justin (crackedrearview)..he's against/for things because of HIS mind. not anyone else's. he's against abortion because HE thinks it's wrong, not because jesus says so. in fact, i doubt there's anything in the bible about abortion...considering abortion wasn't even an issue until the 1970s when it was legalized.

- sammi (touch my monkey)