The Bible?, historical acocunt or a political agenda Options

[sikdragon]

Just because you dont believe in gravity doesn't mean it's not there.

[sadolakced acid]

Just because you dont believe in gravity doesn't mean it's not there.

just because i believe in aliens doesn't mean they're there.

[Spirited Away]

1) A form of greed? in what way?

2) If god were less vague everyone would become extremely dependant. He wants us to live our lives as humans. He wants us to learn to ride our bikes without him running with us. He'll still run out and pick us up if we fall, but he still wants us to find the joy of riding a bike.

3) He hasn't abandoned us. He never has. He's sitting next to us trying to get us to stop. He's not nagging, he's patient. He tries to save everyone from their drugs in different ways. Different circumstances.
There are obvious contradictions in their doctrine. Mine is without contradiction. I'm not saying all jehova's witnesses are going to hell. Everyone is case by case. God doesn't stereotype.

1) Isn't wanting someone to love you back a greed? Greed, by definition, is wanting something more than one deserve or need. Lets say that God does deserve love from all humanity, but does He needs it?

2) If God were clear on who He is and isn't, where He is and isn't, and whether He exist or not, it wouldn't make any difference on our independence or dependence. Why would you think that? We would still live as humans should, except that we know who to revere and who to trust. Does God not want us to trust in Him? We will still learn how to ride a bike whether or not He is clear on who He is, why wouldn't we? We will still know the joy of learning, but if we know clearly that God is there, we can share that joy with Him. Why would it be a bad thing for Him to let us have the indisputable knowledge of His existence?

Why would we be dependent upon the knowledge that He is there? And even if we depend on Him, why would that be a bad thing? Is praying to God not a Christian culture? Is this not a form of dependency? If this is a bad thing, then why do Christians pray knowing that dependency isn't what God wants?

3) I'm confused on how He would be able to do that without us knowing that He is there. From what I see, people save people and people save themselves. Miracles may exist. However, I don't usually connect miraculous events to any kind of divine intervention, they're just pure human will and coincidence.

I rather God nags. That way, a lot of people can be 'saved', myself included.






From this agnostic point of view:
Just because you don't see the cat, it doesn't mean he's not there. But, it doesn't mean that he's there either.

[sikdragon]

1. the definition has or in it. That means that it could be one or the other.

2.Faith.

Jhn. 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.


Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.


Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.


Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.


Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.


Jhn 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.


Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.


Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.


3. The drugs.

[sammi rules you]

...sikdragon, this topic about whether the bible is historical fact or political propaganda. posting bible verses here does nothing to make us believe. the bible is not proof or evidence of anything.

[sikdragon]

dont you see i was ansewring her questions?

[*kryogenix*]

...sikdragon, this topic about whether the bible is historical fact or political propaganda. posting bible verses here does nothing to make us believe. the bible is not proof or evidence of anything.

I have yet to see someone post text that was excluded/included into the bible for political reasons.

Quoting Bible veses is how Jesus taught the people. Iit was good enough for Jesus and it's good enough for me.

[sadolakced acid]

Quoting Bible veses is how Jesus taught the people. Iit was good enough for Jesus and it's good enough for me.

oh really? that's funny, cus the bible was written in 500 AD or so...

[Spirited Away]

1. the definition has or in it. That means that it could be one or the other.
2.Faith.
Jhn. 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. 
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. 
Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 
Jhn 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 
Jhn 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. 
Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 
Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 

Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. 
3. The drugs.

1) Alright, so He doesn't need it, He just wants it because He deserves it? Right? Perfect.

If love is something He doesn't need, that means it is expendable, right? So, He would punish those He loves because He wants something that is perfectly expendable? Ouch.

This reminds me of a story of my own. A true story, by the way.

There was an old woman who lived with her son in a grand house and they were considered to be wealthy. Her son gets married to a kind young woman who has no land or any kind of tangible wealth tied to her name. The old woman was very upset about the lack of wealth but had to bear with it. One day, when the son and the old lady was away, the daughter in law had borrowed a meager amount of money from her husband before he left to go to the market so she can prepare a surprise meal for the family to please the old woman. The thing is, her husband's money comes from an allowance from his mother. When the old woman returns, she was in an uproar. How dare the girl take the money that she still considered hers though she already gave it away! She beats the young woman black and blue and kicked her out of the grand house. When the son returns and learned of this, he went to find his wife...

I'll end the story there, but know that it continues. Anyway, do you think the old lady was very nice? I mean, the old woman was wealthy and could afford a few missing coins, why punished the daughter in law so harshly? The money wasn't hers anyway because she already gave it to her son. So, do you think the woman fair?

2) So God would bless those who would believe the unbelievable because someone says tells them believe? .... How strange.

What I mean is, why should I believe that Jesus is a God send? Because he says he is the Son of God?

I don't think you have answered my query about praying, so here it goes again:
"Why would we be dependent upon the knowledge that He is there? And even if we depend on Him, why would that be a bad thing? Is praying to God not a Christian culture? Is this not a form of dependency? If this is a bad thing, then why do Christians pray knowing that dependency isn't what God wants?"

3) I don't understand your reply.

[antix10_kos]

I don't think you have answered my query about praying, so here it goes again:
"Why would we be dependent upon the knowledge that He is there? And even if we depend on Him, why would that be a bad thing? Is praying to God not a Christian culture? Is this not a form of dependency? If this is a bad thing, then why do Christians pray knowing that dependency isn't what God wants?"

Question 1:Why would we be dependent upon the knowledge that He is there?
Answer: People are dependent upon this knowledge because they base their lives, and the foundation of their livlihoods on this belief that an all-knowing spirit and his son will save us all. It is easy to sin, to be human when you know that someone died 2,005 years ago on a cross for all of your sins in the present day. Also, if he was resurrected from the grip of death, then it gives people hope that they too will be immortalized. If they are a good enough believer, that is.

Question 2: And even if we depend on Him, why would that be a bad thing?
Answer: From my point of view , it is a bad idea to depend on such a distant and detatched and ultimately, unproven, being to help you and to guide you through life. A person should use their mind and body as they wish. They should never deny themselves in order to please faraway onlookers aka God and Christ. You should not have to repent for sins of nature such as being turned on or attracted to someone or wanting more than what you've got. Greed is not a bad thing unless you hurt others to get what you want. Punishment should be reserved for only the most serious matters and be just and if necessary, cruel. Pity and Piety only lead to trouble, as far as humanity is concerned.

Question 3: Is praying to God not a Christian culture?
Answer: The wording of that question is a bit off...Yes, it is an aspect of Christian culture to pray to God. Prayer offers solace and comfort. It gives hope, and lets people destress in a healthy way. I find it a bit odd that most other religions, excluding Judeo-based ones and Islam, abstaining from prayer and proving one's self to God through their acts of devotion, are the norm. It takes a strong faith to go to a temple and give all of your money or food, a much stronger faith than it does to pray for things to be better.

Question 4: Is this not a form of dependency?
Answer: Yes, I do believe that prayer is a form of dependency. That's why it is very easy for recovering drug addicts, alcoholics and other addicts to find salvation in Christianity. It's basically changing addictions. Instead of smoking crack or drinking all of the time, people pray.....and they go to church instead of bars and parties...they wear crosses to fend off the demons of their past and surround themselves with only things that remind them of their beliefs...just as before, they surrounded themselves with liquor, parties, drugs....

Question 5: If this is a bad thing, then why do Christians pray knowing that dependency isn't what God wants?
Answer: Christians pray because it feels good, it helps them focus and to destress. Christian prayer is a lot like mediation in other religions, only it doesn't involve the quiet that mediation does. Prayer can be done anywhere, any time and for any reason. Anyone can talk to God or Jesus or both whenever the need arises. If prayer is considered a dependency, then it is also an addiction, a habit and a source of comfort.

[Spirited Away]

Question 1:Why would we be dependent upon the knowledge that He is there?
Answer: People are dependent upon this knowledge because they base their lives, and the foundation of their livlihoods on this belief that an all-knowing spirit and his son will save us all. It is easy to sin, to be human when you know that someone died 2,005 years ago on a cross for all of your sins in the present day. Also, if he was resurrected from the grip of death, then it gives people hope that they too will be immortalized. If they are a good enough believer, that is.

Then aren't Christians dependent on God since they know that He is with them? Interesting, if Christians know for a fact that God exists and are dependent on Him, then why can He not allow the rest of us to know of His existence, for a fact, as well?

Question 2: And even if we depend on Him, why would that be a bad thing?
Answer: From my point of view , it is a bad idea to depend on such a distant and detatched and ultimately, unproven, being to help you and to guide you through life. A person should use their mind and body as they wish. They should never deny themselves in order to please faraway onlookers aka God and Christ. You should not have to repent for sins of nature such as being turned on or attracted to someone or wanting more than what you've got. Greed is not a bad thing unless you hurt others to get what you want. Punishment should be reserved for only the most serious matters and be just and if necessary, cruel. Pity and Piety only lead to trouble, as far as humanity is concerned.

Christians often say that God is omnipresent. If this is true, then God is not ever too distant or detatched. Greed is sin, whether or not people are hurt.
Greed is to sin against the virtue of generosity [source]. "[Generosity] is giving without having expectations of the other person. Greed wants to get its "fair share" or a bit more. "
So giving love and expecting love in return because one thinks one deserve it is sin.

Question 3: Is praying to God not a Christian culture?
Answer: The wording of that question is a bit off...Yes, it is an aspect of Christian culture to pray to God. Prayer offers solace and comfort. It gives hope, and lets people destress in a healthy way. I find it a bit odd that most other religions, excluding Judeo-based ones and Islam, abstaining from prayer and proving one's self to God through their acts of devotion, are the norm. It takes a strong faith to go to a temple and give all of your money or food, a much stronger faith than it does to pray for things to be better.

The wording is off? How? See the little question mark at the end? The question is rhetorical.
When one prays for things to be better do they get better? I thought you said that God is a distant being and detatched. If God is distant and detatched then why pray to Him for better when one can do so much more by helping for the better?

Question 4: Is this not a form of dependency?
Answer: Yes, I do believe that prayer is a form of dependency. That's why it is very easy for recovering drug addicts, alcoholics and other addicts to find salvation in Christianity. It's basically changing addictions. Instead of smoking crack or drinking all of the time, people pray.....and they go to church instead of bars and parties...they wear crosses to fend off the demons of their past and surround themselves with only things that remind them of their beliefs...just as before, they surrounded themselves with liquor, parties, drugs....

Again, I thought dependecy is a no-no, so why do these Christians do it? If they can depend on God and be saved because they have the knowledge of God, then why would it be bad for non-believers to become believers through knowledge that God exist?

Question 5: If this is a bad thing, then why do Christians pray knowing that dependency isn't what God wants?
Answer: Christians pray because it feels good, it helps them focus and to destress. Christian prayer is a lot like mediation in other religions, only it doesn't involve the quiet that mediation does. Prayer can be done anywhere, any time and for any reason. Anyone can talk to God or Jesus or both whenever the need arises. If prayer is considered a dependency, then it is also an addiction, a habit and a source of comfort.

So bottom line, is praying a bad thing?

[sikdragon]

"oh really? that's funny, cus the bible was written in 500 AD or so... "

no it wasnt.

http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm

ill get to the other questions later.

[*suddenly she*]

greed

n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins)
source: dictionary.com

as it says in 2, ...insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins).

now this might be a stupid question, but i was thinking, does God consider us wealth?
anyway, that's not my main point.

insatiable means that it can never be satisfied. we are ordered to spread the word to everybody. everybody is not an infinite (pro)noun. God would not order us to do something impossible by spreading the word to an infinite amount of people, because God wants us to achieve this goal. so from my point of view, God wanting our love (by acknowledging his power and existence) this cannot be greed.

btw, wanting more than what one deserves or needs.. or, not and.
not my best argument, but i'm kinda brain-dead from cello practice.

[Spirited Away]

greed

n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins)
source: dictionary.com

as it says in 2, ...insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins).

now this might be a stupid question, but i was thinking, does God consider us wealth?
anyway, that's not my main point.

insatiable means that it can never be satisfied. we are ordered to spread the word to everybody. everybody is not an infinite (pro)noun. God would not order us to do something impossible by spreading the word to an infinite amount of people, because God wants us to achieve this goal. so from my point of view, God wanting our love (by acknowledging his power and existence) this cannot be greed.

btw, wanting more than what one deserves or needs.. or, not and.
not my best argument, but i'm kinda brain-dead from cello practice.

Greed is sin, whether or not people are hurt.
Greed is to sin against the virtue of generosity [source]. "[Generosity] is giving without having expectations of the other person. Greed wants to get its 'fair share' or a bit more. "
So giving love and expecting love in return because one thinks one deserve it is sin.

Yes, by definition, greed is an "insatiable desire for wealth", but there is such a thing as material wealth and non-material wealth. And as you can see, I have said that greed is the sin against the virtue of generostiy for the reasons I, or the source rather, explained above.

I would also like to add, thinking that one deserves something, like love, is pride.

There are so many questions unanswered. There were times when I wanted so badly to believe, but couldn't bring myself to because I have too many questions that have yet to be answered sufficiently. And then I tried to ask God...



You play the cello? *Jealous*, I have no such talent.

[*CrackedRearView*]

oh really?  that's funny, cus the bible was written in 500 AD or so...

Who fed you your bowl of 'Misinformation Flakes' today?

[antix10_kos]

Greed--Is When One Person Wants More Than Their Share Regardless Of Whether Or Not They Deserve It.

This type of greed has kept us alive for thousands of years. Take what you can, when you can take it and don't feel guilty because if you don't take it, then someone else will.

Pride--Believing That One's Self and Well-Being Takes Precedence Over Other's Needs and All Else

Proud people are usually the take-charge leaders of the world. Conceit and egotism are just manifestations of the pride in their hearts. Worrying about how someone else might feel is good thing, but isn't always the wisest choice.


No, I don't beleive that prayer is a bad thing. I also don't think that it is a good thing either. If prayer helps a person and keeps them sane, then I'm all for it.

PS- When I said that your wording was a bit off, I just meant that it took me a few reads to get the question...I didn't know if you were trying to say that prayer is an aspect of Christian culture or if you were saying that it was conclusive of the culture....or both. In the end, I took it as the first one and answered it the best I could.

This post has been edited by antix10_kos: Jun 23 2005, 08:41 PM

[Spirited Away]

Before I go into depth, I wanted to comment that the english language is so colorful, that there is more than one meaning for many words.

Greed--Is When One Person Wants More Than Their Share Regardless Of Whether Or Not They Deserve It.
This type of greed has kept us alive for thousands of years. Take what you can, when you can take it and don't feel guilty because if you don't take it, then someone else will.

I would ask you and anyone who's interested in this discussion to define 'generosity' for me, please.

Pride--Believing That One's Self and Well-Being Takes Precedence Over Other's Needs and All Else
Proud people are usually the take-charge leaders of the world. Conceit and egotism are just manifestations of the pride in their hearts. Worrying about how someone else might feel is good thing, but isn't always the wisest choice.

So knowing one's own worth and believing to know what one deserves is not pride? If I was a born genius and know what is due to me: wealth, power, knowledge, opportunities, and I constantly expect them, is that not pride and greed? Or if I loved a man with all my heart, yet he loves another. I demand he loves me because I know I deserve it... is that not pride and greed? Pride because I dare to think that I know my own worth and greed for a love that was not meant to be demanded into giving. Shall I punish the man for not loving me back?

No, I don't beleive that prayer is a bad thing. I also don't think that it is a good thing either. If prayer helps a person and keeps them sane, then I'm all for it.

So there is not a certain answer that you can give me? What about you Sik? I know you believe things are black and white, what do you think the answer to my question should be?

PS- When I said that your wording was a bit off, I just meant that it took me a few reads to get the question...I didn't know if you were trying to say that prayer is an aspect of Christian culture or if you were saying that it was conclusive of the culture....or both. In the end, I took it as the first one and answered it the best I could.

Conclusive? Exclusive? I meant to pose a question with an obvious answer that will lead to my point, which is if prayer is a bad thing then why do Christians do it. But I see what you mean.

[*kryogenix*]

oh really?  that's funny, cus the bible was written in 500 AD or so...

He quoted from the old testament, the words of the prophets.

[Spirited Away]

He quoted from the old testament, the words of the prophets.

Speaking of the Old Testament, I have a question that may be relevant to the topic. A lot of people seem to questioned this before me...

I've been reading around the sins subject and I ran accross several sources that say the Old Testament described God as angry and the Gospel says Jesus was angry once or twice, one being in John 2:15. Wrath/anger is a sin isn't it?

I understand that there is an underlying reason why Jesus was angry. I skimmed through John:13-25. However, I still don't understand how Jesus would be capable of anger if it is a sin and God hates sin...

Oh, and since Jesus taught from the Bible, was any of it from the Old Testament? However, the Old Testament's God was an angry, sometimes vengeful, God was He not?

< *faints* this is too confusing.

[sadolakced acid]

"oh really? that's funny, cus the bible was written in 500 AD or so... "

no it wasnt.

http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm

ill get to the other questions later.

well, that's the original version.

it was revised in 500 ad for political purposes, i think...

but still, the new testament was written after jesus died, right?

Who fed you your bowl of 'Misinformation Flakes' today?

the bush administration. it came with the iraqi war.

[*suddenly she*]

Speaking of the Old Testament, I have a question that may be relevant to the topic. A lot of people seem to questioned this before me...

I've been reading around the sins subject and I ran accross several sources that say the Old Testament described God as angry and the Gospel says Jesus was angry once or twice, one being in John 2:15. Wrath/anger is a sin isn't it?

I understand that there is an underlying reason why Jesus was angry. I skimmed through John:13-25. However, I still don't understand how Jesus would be capable of anger if it is a sin and God hates sin...

http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven/anger.html
that confused me so much.. but it all makes sense in the end.

i hope that answers the question.

Oh, and since Jesus taught from the Bible, was any of it from the Old Testament? However, the Old Testament's God was an angry, sometimes vengeful, God was He not?

i don't know how i could answer the first question, but yes, jesus = God.

oh dang, i'm confused
*and no, i only pretend to have talent with a cello *

[antix10_kos]

Before I go into depth, I wanted to comment that the english language is so colorful, that there is more than one meaning for many words.

I would ask you and anyone who's interested in this discussion to define 'generosity' for me, please.
So knowing one's own worth and believing to know what one deserves is not pride? If I was a born genius and know what is due to me: wealth, power, knowledge, opportunities, and I constantly expect them, is that not pride and greed? Or if I loved a man with all my heart, yet he loves another. I demand he loves me because I know I deserve it... is that not pride and greed? Pride because I dare to think that I know my own worth and greed for a love that was not meant to be demanded into giving. Shall I punish the man for not loving me back?
So there is not a certain answer that you can give me? What about you Sik? I know you believe things are black and white, what do you think the answer to my question should be?
Conclusive? Exclusive? I meant to pose a question with an obvious answer that will lead to my point, which is if prayer is a bad thing then why do Christians do it. But I see what you mean.

All of these things are just my opinions. I am not going to bust out the dictionary and argue from definitions. If you believe that you personally deserve something, then you must work towards it. You cannot sit back and say, "oh I want this, so I'll wait and hope and pray for it." No, to me, that type of thinking is crap. Also, you cannot demand that someone love you. Love is an act of free will, and it must be given freely. Forced love is not love, it is twisted pity. You cannot demand that someone love you, for if you do, you are damning yourself by crippling your own happiness.

Also, in a previous post, I compared praying to meditating. In my opinion, those two things are very similar. They are meant to calm a person and to provide an healthy outlet for one's emotions. I do not believe that praying to relieve stress or just praying to get things off of your chest is wrong. I do, however, have issues with people becoming dependent on prayer, to the point where they continue to let lives and their livlihood sour while they wait for the divine. Take action to make change and you will see results. Sitting on your ass, praying, and doing anything in the meanwhile, is an idiotic approach.

People should be free to believe what they want to believe and to practice those beliefs as long as those beliefs do not harm others. Case closed. If it makes you happy, do it as long as it harms no one else.

Bottom line:
As long as you are working towards change and not just asking and begging for it, then prayer is okay. Praying for evil acts such as to change another's heart, wanting someone dead, etc., goes against Christianity anyway. It only defiles your faith to pray for such things. It is wrong to pray for those sorts of things and any informed Christian knows better than to do so. If a person is praying for God to change his will, his plan, for them, then they are showing ego, which goes against humility and is its self a sin. Christians pray because it helps them....to deal with this grand thing called life.

[Spirited Away]

http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven/anger.html
that confused me so much.. but it all makes sense in the end.
i hope that answers the question.

Actually, I still don't understand. It doesn't seem to answer why being angry is okay for Jesus and God, yet not for Man. Maybe I missed something. The message I read is that even a 'righteous anger' can be sinful because we are not God. Christians have pushed at me in the past that righteous anger is anger. A white lie is a lie. To sin is sin. So, my question on why God's anger, though righteous, cannot be called sin is still unanswered.

All of these things are just my opinions. I am not going to bust out the dictionary and argue from definitions. If you believe that you personally deserve something, then you must work towards it. You cannot sit back and say, "oh I want this, so I'll wait and hope and pray for it." No, to me, that type of thinking is crap. Also, you cannot demand that someone love you. Love is an act of free will, and it must be given freely. Forced love is not love, it is twisted pity. You cannot demand that someone love you, for if you do, you are damning yourself by crippling your own happiness.

It is sometimes not helpful to argue from definitions because even definitions vary from person to person and from situation to situation. I'm not saying that I personally deserve something so I deserve it. The situation I gave is a hypothetical one that acts as a simulation. So now that I have your answer...
Love must be given freely and cannot be commanded. Forced love is, indeed, twisted. So why is that God expects to be loved because He gave us His love? If I gave my love to someone and expected to be love back, and when this love is not return I leave him to his own hell... Was the love I gave ever pure and unconditional? Again, it isn't too much for God to ask from us because if He has done all that Christians have claimed, He does deserve love. But saying that one deserve something doesn't mean that one can own it, force it from those who do not know what is 'truth'. That is a love forced from fear.

Scenerio A:
I love someone. There is no punishment for not loving him. I can freely come and go as I please. This is free will. The freedom to choose is not constraint by any means of pain and punishment. I make the choice to love him because there is no reason not to.

Scenerio B:
I love someone. There is a punishment for not loving him. I have the freedom to choose to love him or not to love him, but I am constrained by the knowledge that there is punishment if I choose the latter. Is this true love, or forced love? Can it be called love at all? In this case, I would choose to not love this man. Why? Because I would rather be punished and retain my freedom then to give up my freedom for something I fear.

Take action to make change and you will see results. Sitting on your ass, praying, and doing anything in the meanwhile, is an idiotic approach.

Just "sitting on your ass praying" is idiotic. However, taking action to make change bring results.... So what is the point of praying when having the will to do something brings more results?

People should be free to believe what they want to believe and to practice those beliefs as long as those beliefs do not harm others. Case closed. If it makes you happy, do it as long as it harms no one else.

I like that.

Christians pray because it helps them....to deal with this grand thing called life.

Oh... But again, why do Christians do it when God doesn't like it?


< getting tired of religion threads

[capsule]

it was revised in 500 ad for political purposes, i think...

the Bible hasn't been "revised" for a good 2200 years or so after the dead sea scrolls were discovered. scholars checked the manuscripts from these scrolls and compared them with the Bible and found them to be nearly 98~99% accurate, with only minor errors involving "a"s and "an"s, and other small grammatical errors. note that these scrolls were found 50 years ago, so the Bible hasn't been touched from 20 BC up till 1950s, and I doubt it hasn't been touched from then.

[wayne]

hell is a really hot place...



thats all ima say to those who are misbelieving...




i was going to insert my 2 cents.. but theres no point. im not here to change anyone's mind...