The Bible?, historical acocunt or a political agenda Options

[fameONE]

aye, there are separate branches of chrisitanity!  each with thier own version of the bible, no?

Not neccesarily. I've been bounced around from church to church growing up. And from Catholic to Baptist, I've used the same bible. The only thing different was the interpretation.

[gotblog4me?]

I'm with ghetosmurph, again!, we're working together on this one!

[sammi rules you]

^ well that's just swell!

just so we don't go mad on this thing, i agree with you, saying that it is ridiculous.  recently, i've seen areas (school, neighborhoods, etc) where it is not cool to be christian. for example, in health, our curriculum is based off abstinence. many students believed this was because the author was christian (which i don't know) and therefore dubbed christianity a stupid religion. many other students heard about this and agreed.

i guess it's just different in different areas. here, it's DEFINITELY cool to be christian, and if you're not christian, you're just weird. now, not being a christian isn't that bad, JUST AS LONG as you still believe in God. however, if you're atheist, then you're just stupid. seriously, people say "well that's stupid, how can you not believe in God?" and every single time i just have to roll my eyes and say "forget about it.." cause i've heard it all so many times before..

now, that's not to say it's cool to follow the christian ideals. i gurantee 60% of my school, at least, has already had sex. yet they are all christians (most, at least). it's not cool to follow christianity, but it's cool to be a christian.

but this really has nothing to do with the debate, so i'll stop ranting.

[fameONE]

You can be devout in your faith and not agree with all of its ideals.

I have sex.

I'm also a selfless person that cares more about others and the greater good of society before myself.

So, a sociopath with a butcherknife dies a virgin, but kills 10 people in the process. He "repents." Who's going to hell?

[sadolakced acid]

the 10 people! becuase they weren't christians! the sociopath christian goes to heaven for killing the infedel.

that's in the bible.
and if it's not in your version, it's because it's been edited out.

[fameONE]

the 10 people!  becuase they weren't christians!  the sociopath christian goes to heaven for killing the infedel.

that's in the bible.
and if it's not in your version, it's because it's been edited out.

Honestly, I really don' agree with viewpoint I'm arguing from.

I've believed this ever since I was old enough to understand what was going on in church; its just a book.

[*suddenly she*]

the 10 people!  becuase they weren't christians!  the sociopath christian goes to heaven for killing the infedel.

that's in the bible.
and if it's not in your version, it's because it's been edited out.

eh, what version is that? it sounds interesting. we should probably compare different versions.

considering that the ten people killed were christians, of course they went to heaven. if the sociopath truly repented and was sorry that he did it, he also went to heaven.
^if you want a (niv version) verse for that, ask. because otherwise i won't post it unless i need to prove it.

if the ten people killed were not christian, but did not have a chance to receive the gospel before, then it is my own belief that they would have a chance to become christian before entering either heaven or hell, or that they would go to heaven. of course, i'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me on that, because i'm human and can't tell you how God works.
if they did have a chance before and did not become christian, then they went to hell.
that's what i believe, anyway.

[sammi rules you]

so...anyone who's not christian..even though there were religions existing before christianity..goes to hell? no matter what? no matter how good or moralistic they are, they go to hell?

and a sociopath who kills ten people, but is a christian..however, seems to not abide by the christian ideals..goes to heaven?

seems like the bible is advertising christianity....seems like trying to get everyone to be christian. and if christians are supposed to be accepting of others, this doesn't seem very religiously driven.

[crayonzUpMyNose]

i think it was just a bunch of stories people made up. neither propaganda or truth

[sadolakced acid]

ghandi goes to hell?

darwin goes to hell?

galelio goes to hell?

you know, hell sounds like a better place; considering

hitler goes to heaven
the crusaders go to heaven
timothy mcvegh goes to heaven.

you know what, i want to go to hell

[fameONE]

ghandi goes to hell?

darwin goes to hell?

galelio goes to hell?

you know, hell sounds like a better place; considering

hitler goes to heaven
the crusaders go to heaven
timothy mcvegh goes to heaven.

you know what, i want to go to hell

Without denouncing my faith, I'm agreeing with your viewpoint.

Personally, I believe you have to make beliefs your own. There is no way you can whole-heartedly believe in something unless you understand how it connects with your daily life.

I don't care about JOB, Jeremiah or Daniel.I care about if I'm a good person and contributing to the greater good of society and mankind. The Bible is merely a book to me.

Christianity is just a basic guideline for me to help better myself as a person. I have sex, I swear from time to time (more so on the internet, douchebag) and I support someone's decision to be a homosexual because no one should have control over how someone feels or a decision they make.

In the eyes of many, especially those who follow the bible word for word, I'm a goin' to hail. I'm not so self-righteous to believe that I'm not and going to heaven, I really don't concern myself with such thoughts of nonsense. My concern is being a good; son, brother, friend, boyfriend, human being.

I could care less if you worship Spongebob, pray to Geore Lucas or don't even believe a benevolent omnipresent exists. If you're good people, you're good people. And every good person is rewarded some way or another.

"Yo Don, so how are you a Christian?"

Thats a damn good question. Its partly because I have an interest in uncovering certain biblical "truths." Like Noah's ship that's supposedly buried in Mt. Arrarat or walking the path the Jesus supposedly' walked before he was murdered.

Still, I don't "put things in God's hands," I put things in my hands. {Christian Humanism}

Now, you all can see why I tend to argue with both Christians and atheists. I feel like people get too caught up in the politics of it all analyzing everything instead of living their lives with some sort of hope that maybe there is a God, or that we do have guardian angels or a spirit of a passed loved one who has our back and watches over us.

Well, I'm going to wrap this up before I start to ramble. Thats my standpoint on religion, Christianity and all. I'm sure I'll get plenty of PMs from Christians calling me a satanist and a traitor, but I don't care because they can all kiss my black ass.

[*suddenly she*]

so...anyone who's not christian..even though there were religions existing before christianity..goes to hell? no matter what? no matter how good or moralistic they are, they go to hell?

and a sociopath who kills ten people, but is a christian..however, seems to not abide by the christian ideals..goes to heaven?

seems like the bible is advertising christianity....seems like trying to get everyone to be christian. and if christians are supposed to be accepting of others, this doesn't seem very religiously driven.

if they didn't get a chance to become christian, then i don't think they would go to hell, but instead have a chance to decide after death.

for the sociopath, that's what we call grace. it's something that nobody deserves. the bible says heaven cannot accept sin, but somehow, humans who make mistakes and do wrong on purpose can still get in.

that ties in to the whole forgiveness story.
love/accept the person, hate the sin or what the person believes.

i have trouble with that a lot.

by the way, good job don.

[baller30]

if you read different versions of the bible, there are things different about it. some include things against womens' rights and the lot, and more recent versions don't.

if there were no changes, why are there so many versions?

the reason there have been different wersions of the bible are for mamny reasons
1. the greek expersions for some things are very hard to translate and can be translated in many different ways; here's my favorite example:

In the Greek to say that you deeply cared about something, you would say something to the affect that it makes their bowels move...

hehe ... to translate this literally would make no sense to the American and/or English reader so instead it would be translate as:

i love he/she/it from the bottom of my heart( or with all my heart)

2. one word has several different meanings depending of context

many of you know that in english, one word can have so many different meanings. in the greek and hebrew this is very true.

that's all i can think of right now when i think of more i'll get back to you

o and one more thing...
in order to go to heaven, a person must wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ as his/hjer Lord and Savior and believe that he is God and died on the cross to sve them from themselves and their sin. someone can claim they are a christian, but really never be. the buman heart is decietful. someone can fool him/herself into anything, including the fact that they believe they are a chritian, bu they are not. Only God knows people's hearts, but a person can also really be a Christian and believe that they are not ( as i said before the heart is wicked). Most people however know that they are christians by what their heart's desire really is.

the pyscho can claim is a chrsitian, hitler can claim he is a christian, but if it is not shown in their life that they live how God wants them to live - which is a pure and holy life( which is impossible without Him) - they cannot be a christian. so that means that by this definition, a christian cannot be someone who murders others and never wholeheartedly repents. this person may be sorry, but if they are sorry beacuse they got caught then that is not true repentance. Repentance is being truly sorry because they have done something horrible not only against their fellow man, but most importantly against God.

It may seem harsh that God doesn't let those who don't believe in Him and His son into heaven, but God doesn't have to answer to us. Why should a artist answer to the pot? God created us and we have sinned against Him from birth. Like our parents, he has to punish us for what we have done wrong.

[fameONE]

baller30,

You are viewing this from your own personal standpoint of faith, and that's fine.

HOWEVER...

You must take into account that all good people aren't Christians and all Christians aren't good people. In addition to that, Christianity is not the sole religion on this planet so who are you to say that your way is right and anyone else's way is wrong?

I respect your devotion, I really do. BUT, by claiming that the only way to get to "heaven" (generalization: eternal reward for being a good person) is by doing the above listed, is a bit; unfair, ignorant and biased.

Speaking of being biased(!)...

in order to go to heaven, a person must wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ as his/hjer Lord and Savior and believe that he is God and died on the cross to sve them from themselves and their sin. someone can claim they are a christian, but really never be. the buman heart is decietful. someone can fool him/herself into anything, including the fact that they believe they are a chritian, bu they are not. Only God knows people's hearts, but a person can also really be a Christian and believe that they are not ( as i said before the heart is wicked). Most people however know that they are christians by what their heart's desire really is.

You're preaching to the wrong choir, kid.

[baller30]

i totally understnad what you are saying people just didn't seem to understand what it means to be a christian. so i wanted them to understand what it means

and of course there are "good people," but that doesn't mean they will go to heaven. it is just like muslims who say that you must be muslim to go to heaven or mormons who say that the christians and jews are just a little wrong and the book of Mormom is the only pure book on Earth.

the problem for many is finding the right one.

also I'm not the one saying that chrisitanity is the only way God says it. I have no right to compromise anything God says. I would be ... just sinful.

[fameONE]

the problem for many is finding the right one.

Are you saying that there is a right religion or that everyone needs religion and thats its a matter of choosing the right one?

Or are you saying that Christianity is the way and we need to all meet at River Jordan and sail on over to the other side?

[sadolakced acid]

ehh.

i have had the chance to become christian. in fact, i have had the chance shoved forcefully in my face and down my throat.

therefore; i will burn in a christian hell.

anyways:

baller30, would you care to explain why you're viewing the greek bible as an origin bible, form which many other bibles were translated?


and on that ambiguity thing: translators pick the meaning which suits them the most.

if you're trying to get a couple to break up; and the girl says "but he said he has strong feelings for me!" <- she is obviously interperting that as good strong feelings, as that's beneficial to her.

however, you can say that he has strong feelings of hate for her, because that benefits you.

[*kryogenix*]

ghandi goes to hell?

darwin goes to hell?

galelio goes to hell?

you know, hell sounds like a better place; considering

hitler goes to heaven
the crusaders go to heaven
timothy mcvegh goes to heaven.

you know what, i want to go to hell

I don't think you're understanding this the right way. Read my sig.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Who is the true follower of Christ, the man who preaches non-violence or the man who commits genocide?

[*suddenly she*]

I don't think you're understanding this the right way. Read my sig.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Who is the true follower of Christ, the man who preaches non-violence or the man who commits genocide?

that's a great verse, but what does it have to do with anything at the moment?
i think we should have your question a bit altered.

who is the true follower of Christ, the non-christian man who preaches non-violence or the christian man who commits genocide?

do you think God judges a person based on his/her best or worst deed?
i don't really have an opinion yet on the question i just wrote.

actually, maybe i do.
He might judge on what your intentions were. i don't know, because i can't explain the mind that created the world.

26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. -ezekiel 18:26-27, niv. source: biblegateway.com

i guess that says it.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD. -ezekiel 18:9, niv. source: biblegateway.com

what are his decrees and laws? the ten commandments, all that stuff about not murdering people, having mercy and so on. from what i can see, ghandi followed them. if following God was included, then i have no idea.

my head hurts from thinking. sorry if i'm screwing up the debate.

[sadolakced acid]

I don't think you're understanding this the right way. Read my sig.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-John 3:16

Who is the true follower of Christ, the man who preaches non-violence or the man who commits genocide?

according to most every christian i've asked, the man who commites genocide. that is, if he truely believes in jesus christ as his lord and savior and truly seeks forgiveness for his sins.

ehh. hitler has a greater chance than me of getting into heaven.

that being said, everyone should worship jesus. either as thier lord and savior, or as history's greatest con.

i think getting billions of people to call you god is pretty good if you aren't really god, don't you think?

and if you are god, why can't you get the rest?

that being said; i do not believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, and thus i will undeniablly go to hell, as ghandi undeniably went to hell.

hitler, however, as well as high nazis, have a better chance of going to heavan.

[*suddenly she*]

according to most every christian i've asked, the man who commites genocide.  that is, if he truely believes in jesus christ as his lord and savior and truly seeks forgiveness for his sins. 

ehh.  hitler has a greater chance than me of getting into heaven.

that being said, everyone should worship jesus.  either as thier lord and savior, or as history's greatest con. 

i think getting billions of people to call you god is pretty good if you aren't really god, don't you think?

and if you are god, why can't you get the rest?

that being said; i do not believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, and thus i will undeniablly go to hell, as ghandi undeniably went to hell. 

hitler, however, as well as high nazis, have a better chance of going to heavan.

he doesn't get the rest because he gives people the choice to pick him or not. he gives us this free will.

i don't know your intelligence level (looking at your other posts, it's quite high), but if you're about to ask why he would give us free will if it was sending people to their deaths..

-yes, i've read the other post you made and that you don't like people saying God loves you and all those wonderfully creative Bible answers-

he gave you the free will because he loves you. please don't kill me, because that would be bad. from what i can see, you're enjoying your free will to refuse him. that's what he wanted you to do, enjoy life. he didn't want a robot following his ideals, but a person who really believed it... and then there are people who just don't want to.

there we go, now you can't look like a preaching parrot because i think i've fulfilled the quota for the next week or so.

i don't understand how people just don't believe there is a God. would someone care to explain?

[_suzie_]

some of you are makin it out to sound like the murderer of 10 people gets into heaven for repenting...well, if u read teachings throughout the bible you'll find that people are still punished for what they've done, even though they've repented.

I was brought up a Catholic. i live in northern ireland, where protestants and catholics have murdered each other simply because of their faith. sounds stupid seeing as theyre both christian...but anyways.

i believe in God and Christ. many would say i am therefore a Christian. in obvious ways i am...but i dont believe in what the Church has been practising for thousands of years...cuz many of thier actions have been to suppress the people. the christian churches of the world are among the richest institutions that have ever existed.

in other words, the christian church and the ''catechism of the catholic church'' have stood between me and God. i personally believe that God is the same god for all (monotheistic) religions - for example, the Koran itself praises the birth of Jesus to Mary...however does not recognise him as a messiah.

religious institutions and scriptures are run and were written by by man = fact. this is why i cant take everything any holy book says as TOTALLY true. i can only take what i can from it, in my own interpretation.

heres a nice quote i found ages ago:

''Did not I, who brought Israel out of Egypt, bring
the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Aramaeans from Kir?'' Amos 9:7

yahweh, god, allah, whatever u wana call him/her. he apparently saved many races, makin covenants with them. hence different religions and methods of worship...
christianity, islam and judaism are closely linked when you think about it. it really boils down to different ppl at different times in the past who interpreted their faiths and passed them on. things change.

just hope sometime wars over religion end, n ppl can chill the f**k out with each other. :)
sorry this is so long :S

[*suddenly she*]

some of you are makin it out to sound like the murderer of 10 people gets into heaven for repenting...well, if u read teachings throughout the bible you'll find that people are still punished for what they've done, even though they've repented.

in other words, the christian church and the ''catechism of the catholic church'' have stood between me and God. i personally believe that God is the same god for all (monotheistic) religions - for example, the Koran itself praises the birth of Jesus to Mary...however does not recognise him as a messiah.

religious institutions and scriptures are run and were written by  by man = fact. this is why i cant take everything any holy book says as TOTALLY true. i can only take what i can from it, in my own interpretation.

heres a nice quote i found ages ago:

    ''Did not I, who brought Israel out of Egypt, bring
    the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Aramaeans from Kir?'' Amos 9:7

yahweh, god, allah, whatever u wana call him/her. he apparently saved many races, makin covenants with them. hence different religions and methods of worship...
christianity, islam and judaism are closely linked when you think about it. it really boils down to different ppl at different times in the past who interpreted their faiths and passed them on. things change.

just hope sometime wars over religion end, n ppl can chill the f**k out with each other. :)
sorry this is so long  :S

when you find a verse on that (being punished for their deeds, even with repentance), post it up and include the version. it would be interesting to compare versions.

definition of holy, from dictionary.com
1. Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.
2. Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.
3. Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.
4. Specified or set apart for a religious purpose: a holy place.
5. Solemnly undertaken; sacrosanct: a holy pledge.
6. Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: The pursuit of peace is our holiest quest.
7. Informal. Used as an intensive: raised holy hell over the mischief their children did.

the christian's holy book is the bible. book is a word we all know, but holy, in definition 1/2 means sacred, or worthy of worship. the bible was written by man with much of it inspired by God, such as the pentateuch/first five books of the old testament, especially genesis.

for those who don't know, genesis tells the story of creation.

the bible is sacred and completely true, but for years, people have mutilated the meaning to fit their purpose, as others have stated in the thread. even in one church, a verse can be interpreted many different ways.

for example...


Amos 9:7 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
Souce: Biblegateway.com
7"Do you Israelites think you're any better than the far-off Cushites?" GOD's Decree.
"Am I not involved with all nations? Didn't I bring Israel up from Egypt, the Philistines from Caphtor, the Arameans from Qir?

what that says to me is God is involved in everyone, and the fact that he is, does not mean he is the God everyone worships. Before he brought out those separate people from those areas, they most likely did not worship him. Their bringing out would increase their faith in a different god.

Hm. Well, I have a headache again, partly from this, and partly from wondering why I'm capitalizing words correctly.

[sadolakced acid]

he doesn't get the rest because he gives people the choice to pick him or not. he gives us this free will.

i don't know your intelligence level (looking at your other posts, it's quite high), but if you're about to ask why he would give us free will if it was sending people to their deaths..

-yes, i've read the other post you made and that you don't like people saying God loves you and all those wonderfully creative Bible answers-

he gave you the free will because he loves you. please don't kill me, because that would be bad. from what i can see, you're enjoying your free will to refuse him. that's what he wanted you to do, enjoy life. he didn't want a robot following his ideals, but a person who really believed it... and then there are people who just don't want to.

there we go, now you can't look like a preaching parrot because i think i've fulfilled the quota for the next week or so.

i don't understand how people just don't believe there is a God. would someone care to explain?

ehhh. i've seen too much of this world and what can happen to innocent people to believe there is a god. i started life as a blank slate- my parents didn't force any religion upon me, and from this freedom i've concluded that there is no god that controls anything in this world.

i do actually believe there are gods- but they aren't as powerful as me make them out to be- they're mortal, etc.

but, most imporantly, i do not believe jesus was the christ. i just don't believe. jesus seems... too manufactured. too much a prop to be used to recruit people.

anyways:

tell me, in all honesty, if hitler truely believed in jesus christ as his lord and savior, and he truely repented for what he did, would he go to heaven or hell?

[sikdragon]

Hitler commited suicide, so no as far as we know. Cain and abel was written long before christianity was even thought of here on earth. Genesis is just one of the many books written by moses. The bible doesnt say that if you're not christian you won't go to heaven. The church is just a building. The only thing you need to actually do is love. love your neighbor, love your God. When i say your God im not acknowledging any other god. Im saying that the God of abraham, isaac, and jacob can be yours. There is no political agenda in the bible. The agenda lies outside the bible in those who preach. The agenda lies in pamphlets and explanations. The agenda lies in money grubbing wolves who hide in sheeps clothing. The agenda lies in the hypocrites and those on street corners praying loudly for the world to hear. Christianity isn't a cult or a sect. It's not even about being a group of people. It's about a personal relationship with Jesus. You wanna know if he's real or not. Talk to him. Ask for him and he will be there. Jesus can't be seen because of the sin in your life. That's not placing any sort of i'm better than you stance on it either. There was sin in my life and probably will be. Well, i should start again by explaining what sin is. We Christians just use words and expect everyone to understand what we know them to mean. Sin is a dark stormy cloud that covers us and keeps the son from shining it's warmth down on us. With sin we can't see the sun. Does that mean we have to change the weather? no, that's not possible. We need help. We need the sun to move it the clouds away, (he's closer and his arms are longer.) The bible can't be a political agenda. It doesnt stand to gain anything. The leaders only gain from ignorance of the Bible, (not understanding the fundamentals of the bible). The bible teaches the same selflessness of buddhists in the fact that some of the groups give everything up to find enlightenment and reach nirvana, but not to such an extreme. It teaches togetherness like the cults, but not ritual suicide. It teaches Law, just like there is in every christian/nonchristian country alike. If you took time to read it rather than just looking up a couple stories and then bashing you would understand. Read isnt the word i mean, i mean immerse yourself in it. See it like you would when you read a book you really enjoy. See the characters for who they are. Imagine the geneology as it would have been. See the picture of God that the lord has made.

As for all of the innocence lost. How can God exist when there is so much corruption in the world. God being a just God won't force anyone to be with him. God is the quintessence of good. Without him there is corruption and death. In the garden of Eden, God took a stick and drew a metaphorical line in the sand. He said if you want to be buried with my son and not die with the world that has chosen to try and exist without me, cross the line. The thing about this line is that it can be recrossed and that is just what the two in the garden did. With that he said, "I would die for you, would you do the same for me?" In that moment that eve took a bite of the fruit she said she wouldnt. She didnt want to be saved from death.

Those responsible for all of those who have died. Those who transgress against anyone transgress against him and they will face their just punishment.

I dont claim to know every aspect of christanity. All i can claim to understand is the fact that a christian is defined in the bible as one who loves Christ or the unknown God as he was referred to earlier in the world. Did you know all of the hindu God's are believed to be all apart of one greater God. Did you know that Allah is just the arabic word for God. Everyone on earth has heard of God. Everyone on earth knows of God. It may not be the same aspect as we Christians know God, but that's the reason why he wrote the bible and set us out into the world. So that all of the other nations should hear of him so they can see the rest of the picture he has set out before us.