Democracy & Strict Separation of Church and State Options

[*Kathleen*]

Resolved: Democracy is best served with a strict separation of church and state.

Okay...now...just post about what you believe in. I need some practice for the next two months' LD debate.

[Spirited Away]

jefferson has more to say, will post more later.

reference to god does not mean they were christian. ben franklin, george washington, thomas paine, as well as jefferson were deists.

as for minorities, i do not mean religious groups alone, but all who would feel voliated, perhaps oppressed, under a govt w/ One religion's influnce.

i apologize 4 the horrid grammar n such. it's time consuming 2 type this out on pocket pc. i will reply 2 u in full in a later post. :)



EDIT::

Alright, here's more:

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises" (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).

"I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them, an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises and the objects proper for them according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it... Every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents" (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).


"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man" (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).

i don't think any religious minorities feel violated currently.

The people who did not wanted "under God" in the pledge certaintly felt violated. But again, such violation need not to be applied to religious groups alone, but to all groups.

and the constitution was actually created to keep the government out of the church, not religion out of government.

What would be the difference when we have already seen the consequences of religion and govt working hand in hand?

most of our founding fathers were christian, and there were many obvious religious influences- references to God, dating of documents as "In the Year of Our Lord, yadadadada" and so on. they didn't object religion influencing government- all they objected to was government interfering with religion.

Jefferson was a Deist, therefore, reference to God is no surprise. However, he does not like Government interfering with religion AND vice versa (read the above quotes) with good reason. Vice versa, because there is no difference in the outcome. (Note: I wouldn't know what the outcome would be, so I guess you can argue that there are differences...)

justifying it with quotes from the founding fathers about separation of church and state wouldn't be accurate. (i think someone did that.. earlier in this thread..)

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man" (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).

AND

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).


The above quotes proved that at least one Founding Father thought seperation of Church and State is a good idea.

This post has been edited by uninspiredfae: Jan 20 2005, 08:29 PM