A comparison of US and Canadian healthcare, Using babies! Options

[mipadi]

United States

• Wife with previa placenta, c-section, 9 days hospital - $50k+
• Son 3 weeks immature, 3 weeks in NICU - $140K+

Welcome to American health care. I do have insurance so with that it will be about $20K out of pocket for me. And most importantly my son is now 5 weeks old and thriving.

Canada

I'm a Canadian in Canada, father of two. I created an account specifically after reading the above comment. This isn't a horror story, or even a story of near-disaster, just what happened, but I couldn't help but notice a contrast.

In the last weeks of my wife's first pregnancy, she began experiencing some stomach pain. We went to the hospital, she was checked out with a bevy of tests, discharged, and sent home when she appeared to be doing better. Gas, we all thought. After more pain a few days later, and some discussion with the nurse over the phone, we agreed that this needed to be checked again. My wife was diagnosed with an unusual affliction that can affect pregnant women, and that it was best treated with the baby removed.

They tried to induce labour (to no effect), she was given an epidural, and eventually it was decided that this was best handled with a cesarean. The deed done, all was well. Mom and child #1 stayed in the hospital for a few days, receiving checkups and the assorted 200-point-inspections that newborns seem to need. I brought them home, life was good. A nurse came to our home within a couple of weeks to see if we needed anything. At some point my wife went in to a nursing clinic at the hospital to get help with breastfeeding.

Pregnancy #2 came along a couple of years later. As a consequence of history, there were a couple of extra appointments with the obstetrician, an extra ultrasound (I think)...and about three weeks before the due date, my wife started getting pains again. The ob's general take was "let's not mess around - let's just go with the cesarean...how 'bout this weekend?" Another surgery, another stay of a few days.

I paid for parking. I paid to get some photos of the ultrasound in a cutesy envelope, and I paid something like $10 or $15 so my wife would have a phone in the hospital room. I never saw a bill. I don't know how much all this cost. I'd never think this is all that remarkable except that I keep hearing that it is.

I don't really know what things are like in the U.S. I hear horror stories, of course, but I've learned not to trust what you're told about a foreign health care system. I don't know what it's like in the UK or France since I've never lived there.

As for what goes on in Canada...I don't suppose it comes as a surprise to most of the crowd on this particular board to be told that you are being lied to. Horribly, horribly lied to. As the debate rages on in your country, my wife and I are frequently exposed to the things you're being told about the system in my country. She laughs out loud, and my stomach turns.

This isn't a polemic. I don't know that you can really walk away with more than "I heard from some guy that it's not so bad." You folks should do what's best for you and your country, but you deserve good information and a good debate to make your choice.

[NoSex]

Big government is effectively crippling important sectors of our economy. lower taxes means more money for the consumer to use, to stimulate other sectors of an ever dwindling economy.

what sector of our economy is being crippled by government? please cite specific examples. also, lower taxes for the consumer can stimulate the economy, of course. however, raising taxes for the upper crust of society, that small %2 that has a vast majority of this country's wealth, will not destroy us. lastly, what the f*ck are you talking about? i thought we were discussing healthcare. aren't i right? isn't the private industry hurting the economy?

If a corporation in competition can't become more efficient, what makes you think a government funded program will?

because a single payer can manage in a more inexpensive manner. because a single payer, non-profit system doesn't need vacation bonuses like a mother f*cker. because a single payer actually has an incentive to lower costs... and make people healthier. the private industry does best when people are sick; a public system does best when people are healthy.

Government involvement in healthcare is the problem, not the solution.

so i guess the government forced healthcare ceos to take piles & piles of money for bonuses this year... last year, every year. man, the government is an evil prick! i can't believe the government keeps forcing the private industry to deny coverage! what a f*cker!

p.s. you're a tool.

[kryogenix]

what sector of our economy is being crippled by government? please cite specific examples. also, lower taxes for the consumer can stimulate the economy, of course. however, raising taxes for the upper crust of society, that small %2 that has a vast majority of this country's wealth, will not destroy us. lastly, what the f*ck are you talking about? i thought we were discussing healthcare. aren't i right? isn't the private industry hurting the economy?

Government is crippling EVERY sector of the economy. Taxes, minimum wage, bullshit regulations etc.

Tax that 2% enough, and they'll leave/dodge taxes. Then you'll have no one paying the bulk of taxes.

I'm talking about the expansion of government power, which is exactly what government run healthcare is.

because a single payer can manage in a more inexpensive manner. because a single payer, non-profit system doesn't need vacation bonuses like a mother f*cker. because a single payer actually has an incentive to lower costs... and make people healthier. [b]the private industry does best when people are sick; a public system does best when people are healthy.

LOL what a joke. Have you ever been to public school, the DMV, the post office?

There is no incentive to make people healthier, as the government will be making money whether the people are being healed, or dying waiting for their medicine because it's being rationed.

so i guess the government forced healthcare ceos to take piles & piles of money for bonuses this year... last year, every year. man, the government is an evil prick! i can't believe the government keeps forcing the private industry to deny coverage! what a f*cker!

p.s. you're a tool.

The government IS an evil prick. Unjust war, unjust taxes, making a mockery of the Constitution, buying votes with taxpayer money, etc. The CEOs can do whatever the f*ck they want with their profits, they EARNED those profits. They aren't demanding money at gunpoint like the government is.

P.S. cry more

[NoSex]

Government is crippling EVERY sector of the economy. Taxes, minimum wage, bullshit regulations etc.

if government is crippling the economy, why are there still record high profits?

Tax that 2% enough, and they'll leave/dodge taxes. Then you'll have no one paying the bulk of taxes.

than we can arrest that 2%. you know, enforce the law. fundamentally, and rather obviously, that 2% owes their wealth to the infrastructure of society. without civilization, they wouldn't have the same wealth. because of this, they have an obligation, as we all do, to contribute a percentage of our earnings (in order to support the common wealth and development of civilization). those who are wealthiest have a greater debt to society.

otherwise, we live contrary to the concept of civilization. civilization is participatory, communal, and a form of unification. we come together because we are stronger as many. FROM MANY COME ONE.

otherwise, you merely support civilization as a system of labor exploitation and slavery. you would do yourself a service by reading howard zinn's a peoples history of the united states. you must realize that all of history is a story of those what have power, imposing that power on others, unfairly, with little regard for humanity - only giving the masses enough "freedom" so as to pacify them, so as to prevent violent revolution. history is long, but we're still just a bunch of wage slaves.

LOL what a joke. Have you ever been to public school, the DMV, the post office?

there are different ways to increase quality care in a single-payer system. for one, the efficiency i was describing was purely in the sense of cost - universal healthcare would be much cheaper than our private industry. the government could definitely reduce costs, creating a more fiscally efficient system. secondly, what we have seen around the world is that all other systems of equitable (sometimes greater) quality than the us system. so, it isn't a joke, it's a reality. germany, for example, has less wait time than america. and, france has greater quality care. there are different ways to increase quality of care, and it isn''t like delivering mail or taking a driving test (and i've gotten better government service than private service, definitely, so whatever). for example, you give a doctor more money the LESS his patients visit him, not the other way around. this creates a new paradigm in healthcare services, increases efficiency, and actual incentive for healing people.

The CEOs can do whatever the f*ck they want with their profits, they EARNED those profits. They aren't demanding money at gunpoint like the government is.

can the ceos buy the government out? can they lobby politicians to vote in a corporation's interest?

what is your deal with taxes? you realize we need them to function as a civilization? you realize you use public services constantly? and benefit from taxation?

[kryogenix]

if government is crippling the economy, why are there still record high profits?

Because government policy makes it harder for smaller companies to compete, so there is less pressure to lower prices.

than we can arrest that 2%. you know, enforce the law.

It's against the law to move out of the country? I know if I was in a citizen in a country that was taking away the majority of my wealth every year, I'd want out.

fundamentally, and rather obviously, that 2% owes their wealth to the infrastructure of society. without civilization, they wouldn't have the same wealth. because of this, they have an obligation, as we all do, to contribute a percentage of our earnings (in order to support the common wealth and development of civilization). those who are wealthiest have a greater debt to society.

No, they don't owe a f*cking dime. Party A provides a good or service for Party B, who pays for and consumes the goods or services. Both sides were compensated in the transaction. There is no obligation for companies to society, and no obligations for society to companies. As long as both sides make voluntary transactions, both sides have already been fairly compensated.

otherwise, we live contrary to the concept of civilization. civilization is participatory, communal, and a form of unification. we come together because we are stronger as many. FROM MANY COME ONE.

I fail to see why this entails taking wealth from the most productive members of society by force and giving it to the least productive.

otherwise, you merely support civilization as a system of labor exploitation and slavery. you would do yourself a service by reading howard zinn's a peoples history of the united states. you must realize that all of history is a story of those what have power, imposing that power on others, unfairly, with little regard for humanity - only giving the masses enough "freedom" so as to pacify them, so as to prevent violent revolution. history is long, but we're still just a bunch of wage slaves.

You mean it's not labor exploitation and slavery for the government to let people work and take away more than half of what they earn? Perhaps not slavery (yet), but serfs during the middle ages kept more of their money than people in America.

there are different ways to increase quality care in a single-payer system. for one, the efficiency i was describing was purely in the sense of cost - universal healthcare would be much cheaper than our private industry. the government could definitely reduce costs, creating a more fiscally efficient system.

The government COULD reduce costs. But they don't. They never do. Republican or democrat, they squander our money on stupid shit. The last thing we need is yet another monolithic government run program.

secondly, what we have seen around the world is that all other systems of equitable (sometimes greater) quality than the us system. so, it isn't a joke, it's a reality. germany, for example, has less wait time than america. and, france has greater quality care. there are different ways to increase quality of care, and it isn''t like delivering mail or taking a driving test (and i've gotten better government service than private service, definitely, so whatever).

What about healthcare in China?

for example, you give a doctor more money the LESS his patients visit him, not the other way around. this creates a new paradigm in healthcare services, increases efficiency, and actual incentive for healing people.

A doctor in this situation could make his offices smelled like shit, play obnoxious music in the waiting room, and have horrible service so that patients would avoid him, and he would be paid higher than a doctor that people actually liked to visit.

can the ceos buy the government out? can they lobby politicians to vote in a corporation's interest?

I love how both the CEOs and the government are the bad guys here, yet you place government on a pedestal and only admonish the CEOs.

Government enables and even encourages unfair corporate practices.

what is your deal with taxes? you realize we need them to function as a civilization? you realize you use public services constantly? and benefit from taxation?

We functioned as a civilization prior to the 16th amendment. We can have a functioning society without it.