A comparison of US and Canadian healthcare, Using babies! Options

[mipadi]

United States

• Wife with previa placenta, c-section, 9 days hospital - $50k+
• Son 3 weeks immature, 3 weeks in NICU - $140K+

Welcome to American health care. I do have insurance so with that it will be about $20K out of pocket for me. And most importantly my son is now 5 weeks old and thriving.

Canada

I'm a Canadian in Canada, father of two. I created an account specifically after reading the above comment. This isn't a horror story, or even a story of near-disaster, just what happened, but I couldn't help but notice a contrast.

In the last weeks of my wife's first pregnancy, she began experiencing some stomach pain. We went to the hospital, she was checked out with a bevy of tests, discharged, and sent home when she appeared to be doing better. Gas, we all thought. After more pain a few days later, and some discussion with the nurse over the phone, we agreed that this needed to be checked again. My wife was diagnosed with an unusual affliction that can affect pregnant women, and that it was best treated with the baby removed.

They tried to induce labour (to no effect), she was given an epidural, and eventually it was decided that this was best handled with a cesarean. The deed done, all was well. Mom and child #1 stayed in the hospital for a few days, receiving checkups and the assorted 200-point-inspections that newborns seem to need. I brought them home, life was good. A nurse came to our home within a couple of weeks to see if we needed anything. At some point my wife went in to a nursing clinic at the hospital to get help with breastfeeding.

Pregnancy #2 came along a couple of years later. As a consequence of history, there were a couple of extra appointments with the obstetrician, an extra ultrasound (I think)...and about three weeks before the due date, my wife started getting pains again. The ob's general take was "let's not mess around - let's just go with the cesarean...how 'bout this weekend?" Another surgery, another stay of a few days.

I paid for parking. I paid to get some photos of the ultrasound in a cutesy envelope, and I paid something like $10 or $15 so my wife would have a phone in the hospital room. I never saw a bill. I don't know how much all this cost. I'd never think this is all that remarkable except that I keep hearing that it is.

I don't really know what things are like in the U.S. I hear horror stories, of course, but I've learned not to trust what you're told about a foreign health care system. I don't know what it's like in the UK or France since I've never lived there.

As for what goes on in Canada...I don't suppose it comes as a surprise to most of the crowd on this particular board to be told that you are being lied to. Horribly, horribly lied to. As the debate rages on in your country, my wife and I are frequently exposed to the things you're being told about the system in my country. She laughs out loud, and my stomach turns.

This isn't a polemic. I don't know that you can really walk away with more than "I heard from some guy that it's not so bad." You folks should do what's best for you and your country, but you deserve good information and a good debate to make your choice.

[kryogenix]

I paid for parking. I paid to get some photos of the ultrasound in a cutesy envelope, and I paid something like $10 or $15 so my wife would have a phone in the hospital room. I never saw a bill. I don't know how much all this cost. I'd never think this is all that remarkable except that I keep hearing that it is.

That's terrifying. The fact that these people are so kept in the dark at the cost leaves room for abuse. Look at how things are more expensive in Canada, even though the price of the USD and loonie are relatively similar.

I'll counter your anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence:

US: Pay some money and get treated, making a full recovery
Canada: Wait on line and have your legs amputated in the meantime

I agree that we are in need of healthcare reform, but a Canadian style healthcare system in a country this large is not the answer.

[mipadi]

US: Pay some money and get treated, making a full recovery
Canada: Wait on line and have your legs amputated in the meantime

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but if you're not, then you're full of bullshit. The whole point of the post is to show that the line you're being fed in the US about Canada's health care system is do mostly to extreme lobbying and advertising by the health insurance companies. Seriously -- if Canadians (or, e.g., the British) are so unhappy with their health coverage, and they think the US system is so much better, why aren't Canadians demanding privatized health care from their government?

That's terrifying. The fact that these people are so kept in the dark at the cost leaves room for abuse.

And you don't think that a system in which a large corporation, whose one job is to minimize costs while maximizing profits for shareholders, isn't ripe for abuse?

[kryogenix]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but if you're not, then you're full of bullshit. The whole point of the post is to show that the line you're being fed in the US about Canada's health care system is do mostly to extreme lobbying and advertising by the health insurance companies. Seriously -- if Canadians are so unhappy with their health coverage, and they think the US system is so much better, why aren't Canadians demanding privatized health care from their government?

Because Canadians don't care because other people are paying for the goods and services? I dunno, ask the Canadians. From the Canadians I know, they said that the Canadian healthcare system isn't as great as some in the American left would want you to think, but they are still thankful for it because they aren't super wealthy and get more out of the system than what they are paying.

Yes, I know my statement was bullshit, but so was yours. You can't just cherry pick two cases and call it a valid comparison.

And you don't think that a system in which a large corporation, whose one job is to minimize costs while maximizing profits for shareholders, isn't ripe for abuse?

Anything can be abused, but I have the option of not paying for their goods and services if I find them abusive. I can't opt out of certain taxes if I don't take advantage of the services they provide.

[mipadi]

Yes, I know my statement was bullshit, but so was yours. You can't just cherry pick two cases and call it a valid comparison.

These aren't really "isolated" cases, though; they're examples of fairly typical health care costs. Okay, both people didn't have "flawless" pregnancies, but few medical procedures go off without a hitch.

I don't mean to play the age card here, but I'm pretty sure you're still young enough to be covered under your parents' health insurance (correct me if I'm wrong); if not, I seem to recall you're still at college, which means you can probably get medical care on campus for next to nothing. I have to pay for all my health care costs now, and I was also without health insurance for about 6 months, which means I couldn't even afford to go to the dentist. Even going to have something simple like a bad cold treated is rather expensive (in the US) if you don't have health insurance. I had a friend who was working as a teaching for a Teach for America-like organization; she wasn't given health insurance as part of her job, so when she got a cold last winter, she had to search around for a free clinic just to get treated. I argue that in a nation as wealthy as the US, it's morally reprehensible to refuse medical care for citizens; it's morally reprehensible to put the interests of health care providers ahead of the interests of people. Given the fact that we spend roughly as much as the rest of the world on our defense budget, I think we could trim that a bit and provide health coverage for our citizens.

Anything can be abused, but I have the option of not paying for their goods and services if I find them abusive. I can't opt out of certain taxes if I don't take advantage of the services they provide.

So you're suggesting that, for the rest of your life, you never, ever plan to go to a doctor, dentist, or ophthalmologist?

Secondly, you already do pay for a lot of services that you don't use and maybe never will: welfare, airplanes (I rarely fly, and the government heavily subsidizes airlines), food stamps, and so on. Part of living in a civilized society is helping out other humans, even if you see no immediate benefit. The "it's all about me" attitude in America is, frankly, selfish and appalling.

[kryogenix]

I don't mean to play the age card here, but I'm pretty sure you're still young enough to be covered under your parents' health insurance (correct me if I'm wrong); if not, I seem to recall you're still at college, which means you can probably get medical care on campus for next to nothing.

Yup, I'll be ineligible next year. My older sister was without insurance for the past several months, but she just passed her board exams so hopefully she'll have her own coverage soon.

I argue that in a nation as wealthy as the US, it's morally reprehensible to refuse medical care for citizens; it's morally reprehensible to put the interests of health care providers ahead of the interests of people.

I have a different view. I believe that healthcare is made up of goods and services. Healthcare is NOT a right.

If you were to consider healthcare a right, you would either have to force people to pay for it, or force people to provide it for free. It is morally reprehensible to confiscate people's wealth, even if that wealth is used for a good cause. It is morally reprehensible to force those in the medical field to perform services with no compensation. That's called slavery.

So you're suggesting that, for the rest of your life, you never, ever plan to go to a doctor, dentist, or ophthalmologist?

I don't get where you're coming from here.

Secondly, you already do pay for a lot of services that you don't use and maybe never will: welfare, airplanes (I rarely fly, and the government heavily subsidizes airlines), food stamps, and so on.

All of which are things I hope come to an end in the near future.

Part of living in a civilized society is helping out other humans, even if you see no immediate benefit. The "it's all about me" attitude in America is, frankly, selfish and appalling.

Yeah, except I like to do this through charity, not through a corrupt system that forces you to give up half of your income.

[sixfive]

Yeah, except I like to do this through charity, not through a corrupt system that forces you to give up half of your income.

I agree with this statement completely. I also find it appalling that the government should take so much money from people who work and give it to people who don't give a damn about a job or America. They're just leeching and being lazy and jobless.

Mipadi, should we socialize health care, would it be an increase in tax to our income? Would we just force doctors to accept a lesser income? What would happen? Why not fix a lot of other bullshit government spending and abuse and just use the saved money instead of taking more from taxpayers? For instance, if a mexican comes across the border and pops a baby out it's an American citizen and gets taken care of in a hospital for free. I understand not letting a baby just die, but it's completely unnecessary and not our obligation to take care of these illegals.

Also, (just putting this out there) if the government were to increase taxes and attribute some of that revenue to health care, what if a user tax were implemented and this was attached to it?