socialism v. capitalism: Rating Options

[NoSex]

i view capitalism as a mode of economic & social infancy. i think that it is regressive to society, poisonous, & under-developing.

i point to these basic "flaws" in capitalism*:
1. the emphasis on profit as opposed to utility.
2. the creation of oligarchy & plutocracy.
3. the unfair/uneven distribution of wealth.
4. the creation of a significant class divide.
5. the inability of capitalism, alone, to provide the people with necessities.
6. the exploitation of the working class.
7. the existence of crime in excess, caused by class struggle, poverty, & proletariat anxiety.
8. the creation of an oppressive institution (i.e. the police state, the church, the education system) in order to secure profits to a specific & elite population.

i point to these basic "benefits" in socialism*:
1. the emphasis on utility.
2. the destruction of plutocracy & (in many forms) oligarchy.
3. the fair distribution of wealth.
4. the destruction of a significant class divide.
5. the ability of socialism to provide for its people, necessities.
6. the affirmation of the working class.
7. the absence of crime invoked by squalor & proletariat anxiety.
8. the destruction of specific oppressive institutions & the opportunity to reform the state (i.e. despite the pull of capital & profits).

DISCUSS.

*quotation marks provided for argument's sake. whatever.

[NoSex]

Just about 90% of the things you said about me were wrong.

who cares? if you're out of poverty now, you're an exception to the rule.
what's your point? most of what i said is not only still valid... it's convincing.
not to mention, you sound like a f*cking bourgeois sociopath. what the hell else am i supposed to think when someone says shit like, "anyone can succeed! the american dream is alive in the ghetto!"

[Uronacid]

if you're out of poverty now, you're an exception to the rule.

Just like the poor individuals who's lives have just completely f*cked them over are an exception to my own. I'm not saying Capitalism is perfect Nate. People do fall through the holes, however socialism would need to be restructured before I was ever able to accept it. I see people in my shitty slum of a neighborhood living off the government all the time. These are people who could and should contribute to society by having a job of some sort, but they don't look for a job because the gov't gives them far more than what it nessesary to survive. Instead they stop taking care of themselves and rely on the goverment to bail them out of their incompitance. It's downright unfair to the working class.

So why capitalism? Does capitalism work any better when combined with the human element? Is capitalism any less corrupt?

Because it's not controlled by anyone one thing, and it's monitored to keep it that way. The bottom line, there is no single point of failure.

Socialism, while it paves the way for everyone, it rewards those who are lazy slobs with no ambition to succeed. There is plenty of opportunity for people to succeed in this country under capitalism. While there are exceptions to to anything and capitalism isn't without flaws. It's been successful for the past century. Why should we change it? While I'm sure you could point out several reasons this country was founded on capitalism and became the greatest country in the world because of it. The pros for capitalism far outweigh the cons.

Take health care for example, while everyone seems to insist on pushing nationalized health care they don't see effect of doing so. Doctors who see patients in a nationalized health care system are paid the same regardless of quality of service. Incentive to become a better doctor is stifled. Patients receive service that is not as good, development of medical research is slowed down as a result of reduced private funding, etc... When you take "competition" out of an industry it becomes less productive, and in this case more people inevitably die as a result.

[illriginal]

Just like the poor individuals who's lives have just completely f*cked them over are an exception to my own. I'm not saying Capitalism is perfect Nate. People do fall through the holes, however socialism would need to be restructured before I was ever able to accept it. I see people in my shitty slum of a neighborhood living off the government all the time. These are people who could and should contribute to society by having a job of some sort, but they don't look for a job because the gov't gives them far more than what it nessesary to survive. Instead they stop taking care of themselves and rely on the goverment to bail them out of their incompitance. It's downright unfair to the working class.



Because it's not controlled by anyone one thing, and it's monitored to keep it that way. The bottom line, there is no single point of failure.

Socialism, while it paves the way for everyone, it rewards those who are lazy slobs with no ambition to succeed. There is plenty of opportunity for people to succeed in this country under capitalism. While there are exceptions to to anything and capitalism isn't without flaws. It's been successful for the past century. Why should we change it? While I'm sure you could point out several reasons this country was founded on capitalism and became the greatest country in the world because of it. The pros for capitalism far outweigh the cons.

Take health care for example, while everyone seems to insist on pushing nationalized health care they don't see effect of doing so. Doctors who see patients in a nationalized health care system are paid the same regardless of quality of service. Incentive to become a better doctor is stifled. Patients receive service that is not as good, development of medical research is slowed down as a result of reduced private funding, etc... When you take "competition" out of an industry it becomes less productive, and in this case more people inevitably die as a result.

Specifically, what exact part of Socializing would need restructuring? You do realize, that in America, we have or had what's called a mixed economy

And to be quite honest, we haven't been as productive. The best thing we can come up with is cars and xboxes lol...

[Uronacid]

Specifically, what exact part of Socializing would need restructuring? You do realize, that in America, we have or had what's called a mixed economy

And to be quite honest, we haven't been as productive. The best thing we can come up with is cars and xboxes lol...

The system needs to be restructured in such a way that people are encourage to better themselves and be rewarded for it.

- Getting a Job
- Getting an Education
- Being a hard working individual

Socialism, in it's current context encourages many able bodied citizens to sit back and allow the government to bail them out time and time again. That's the problem I have with socialism.

I'm all for helping people who are trying to be the best they can while life keeps taking a shit on them. I'm all for helping people who cannot physically work due to a disability. I'm all for helping the single mother who's been left by a selfish father and has 2-3 extra mouths to feed. I'm not for helping people who drowned themselves in debt and expect to be bailed out or able bodied citizens who've given up on being productive members of society.

[fameONE]

The system needs to be restructured in such a way that people are encourage to better themselves and be rewarded for it.

- Getting a Job
- Getting an Education
- Being a hard working individual

Socialism, in it's current context encourages many able bodied citizens to sit back and allow the government to bail them out time and time again. That's the problem I have with socialism.

I'm all for helping people who are trying to be the best they can while life keeps taking a shit on them. I'm all for helping people who cannot physically work due to a disability. I'm all for helping the single mother who's been left by a selfish father and has 2-3 extra mouths to feed. I'm not for helping people who drowned themselves in debt and expect to be bailed out or able bodied citizens who've given up on being productive members of society.

It's not so much a matter of debt, but credit. The credit system is flawed and in the end, the entire economy takes a hit. You can't possibly attribute someone's credit issues, or accrued debt, to inability to be a productive member of society? That's pretty outlandish.

[Uronacid]

It's not so much a matter of debt, but credit. The credit system is flawed and in the end, the entire economy takes a hit. You can't possibly attribute someone's credit issues, or accrued debt, to inability to be a productive member of society? That's pretty outlandish.

I didn't it was an OR statement. I'm not for:

1. Bailing out people who have accrued massive debt. They need to take responsibility for their actions.
2. Bailing out able bodied citizens who've given up on being productive members of society.

These are separate things. I agree with you.

Show me which Socialist nation is currently encouraging citizens to sit back and mooch off the government.

Competition, imo, isn't needed to prosper.

Our mixed capitolist/socialist country is a prime example of a country were 10s of 1000s of Americans already take advantage of the system. Show me we're headed in a different direction.

Competition shouldn't be required, but alas it is in our instinct to be selfish. That's where the problem lies.

[fameONE]

I didn't it was an OR statement. I'm not for:

1. Bailing out people who have accrued massive debt. They need to take responsibility for their actions.
2. Bailing out able bodied citizens who've given up on being productive members of society.

These are separate things. I agree with you.

I see, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

The way you view capitalism and the reasons you provide that support it, don't seem to be playing out that way in reality. You're for capitalism; that much is clear. However, I think it would be fair to explore other alternatives given our economy's current state of affairs.